Greer @ O.C. MUFON Presentation Nov 10: A ReCap/Pics

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posted on Nov, 12 2007 @ 02:01 PM
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reply to post by MrdDstrbr
 





People who say things are "impossible" are proven wrong all the time, e.g. all the people who said "man will never fly".


This is a hillarious statement. You are able to fly ?! And no, greers levitation won't count here. No, men can't fly, still, after probably 4000 years of trying, we are NOT able to fly ( always thought this is common knowledge for the thinking part of humanity ). We are able to build machines, that carry us throught the air, but so far i haven't seen anything close to a flying human. You might remember, that some hundred years ago, a man named DaVinci started with inventing MACHINES to help us fly, since even in this time, it was KNOWN that man itself won't ever fly. As much as i know, the best theoretical approach has been made by Douglas Adams (RIP) - just fall and try to miss the ground.




I'm much more interested in all the people who say that it IS possible, who are producing research papers and schematics, seemingly working devices, video footage etc..... and there are LOTS.


And that is the reason, why IgnoreTheFacts is absolutely right. People like you will believe ANYTHING and therefor harm us, who are really interested in the topic and not on the hunt for a new messiah. Seemingly working devices ? Show me ONE! You may remember the latest free energy fiasko from a few month ? If someone tells you, he talks to the deaths - totally believable, since everyone says it's impossible. Breaking all known physical laws ? Hell yeah, gimme more, i'll buy three. The earth is flat ! Sure, most of us know, that it's impossible, but as soon as a simple country doctor tells you otherwise, you'll believe.
Are you interested in the topic or are you just searching for someone to make your life more interesting ?

Of course, science has the arrogance to claim absolute knowledge now and in the past (totally generalized statement but unfortunately true to a certain degree), but some things just have to be accepted as the thing, we know as reality.




posted on Nov, 12 2007 @ 02:07 PM
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This is one of the BEST and well written articles here at ATS. Thanks also for you UNbaised "reporting" It sure is refreshing to read something without haveing to endure or wade through all of the "Junk" people write.......A flag and and star from me. Please keep it up!



posted on Nov, 12 2007 @ 02:09 PM
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I stand by my past posts about Greer. Those of you who have followed these threads know where I stand. That hasn't changed. But reading Outrageo's excellent report I had a sense of taking a step back for a moment. From a STRICTLY REAL-POLITIK point of view I wonder if Greer has actually listened to some of the criticism and is making changes in his delivery to accommodate that. His stuff is still way out there, as many of you have pointed out here, but I sense the New Age veneer is taking a back seat in his latest speeches. Perhaps this is temporary; I don't know. It is nearly Winter, so the "Camping for Aliens" schtick isn't so attractive right now. It's wet and windy outside.

Richard Nixon was famous for many things, but one was his statement that the public's memory is six months long. If Greer is changing tactics here, then in six months we should see the results because the vast majority of people will have forgotten some of the more 'unfortunate' issues surrounding Greer. It doesn't matter what we say here, where even some of Greer's supporters will sometimes grudgingly admit Mothra was a tactical error. We don't count. The thousand people who attended his lecture count, only one of which is a known ATS member. How many of those thousand do you think know about Mothra? I think maybe single digits. In other words, Greer is not preaching to us, nor does he require or even desire our support. In the greater scheme of things, ATS can be ignored. Sorry, Springer. I'll tell you why if you want.

Now, the latest wrinkle in this chess game is Disclosure. The momentum appears to be moving away from Greer to people like Symington. There's a CNN report going on right now. I haven't checked the thread yet today to find out what is going on, but I do know Greer isn't there. That would indicate to me that Greer is no longer the center of Disclosure, as he once was. Now you could say, 'Well, this just shows there is more interest.' I'm not sure that's true, but in any case I'm thinking more vis-a-vis Greer himself. So what's he going to do to regain momentum for his own movement? To my fellow Greer Watchers I think the next few months will be interesting. Just watch this game unfold.



[edit on 11/12/2007 by schuyler]



posted on Nov, 12 2007 @ 02:26 PM
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reply to post by schuyler
 


Yes, I think Greer may be doing some "catch-up" PR work. I just received an email from him (I'm on his email blast list) with an "update". The update is a re-release of a copyrighted update released in 1999. It is found at www.disclosureproject.org... and is too lengthy to post here.

Update from 1999? Just a rebroadcast, as far as I'm concerned. I'm a relative newbie to the Disclosure Project and ATS. perhaps only a year into opening my eyes to the new information being shared. Can you give me a quick synopsis re Mothra? That sounds a little pop to me. I fell off the Greer bandwagon just recently after I met him and continued to read ATS postings. Yes, show me some proof. Disclose, please.



posted on Nov, 12 2007 @ 02:44 PM
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Originally posted by spacemanjupiter
reply to post by Zemouk
 


They don't fly faster than the speed of light. They blink into some frequency of reality where information is instantaneously accessible and transferable. I think it has something to do with quantum mechanics observations of one particle existing in two places, the singularity and so forth. They blink out of 3D, and blink back into 3D at another coordinate. I don't even think aliens can physically travel in linear space and time fast enough to get here in time for dinner. They are doing it another way. One that is much quicker and more efficient.

And don't forget about atleast one crash and retrieval of alien technology. We may be behind the times, but we aren't entirely stupid. By the year 2007, i'm quite sure we have back engineered alien technology in a sufficient manner as to produce effects that would be on par with, and possibly even compete with and take down an alien craft. We aren't using bullets to take these things down.. And i'd guess that atleast 80 percent of the ufos you see are not of unknown origin. They're our own.



What I find funny about these threads is the amount of things people believe in which are updated over time by the guy who claims all these things. Blinking from 1 location to another? lol I find that a complete joke. Also love the way these people still believe after 50 years that the Roswell thing was an actual UFO captured. All the suggestions by worldwide physicists is that alien craft would use propulsion, the bit about teleporting to another location was about teleportation of a beings molecules and having something which would rebuild the molecules wherever they were going, which would mean they'd need to have been there in the first place to have 2 teleportation units, they could also use this for cloning. There is also science to say that they can fly over the speed of light through wormholes which Einstein started research on before he died.

They HAVE to use some kind of propulsion if we go by witness accounts. I find the science very interesting and have yet to see any scientific proof that UFO's exist or are being flown by an advanced world. What else are they bringing the UFO's down with, you seem to miss the point that if these beings have the intellect to create something which can travel light years, and also defy gravity surely they will have advances in defense too. On one hand your saying they can blink the next the US have some kind of super weapon that no-one knows about, and mysteriously they shot down the ufo before it blinked away from the incoming missile? lmao. Is this a setup or something to see how dumb people are?



posted on Nov, 12 2007 @ 02:45 PM
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How would Dr. Greer behave if everything he said were actually true?

In other words, how would someone behave if that person were to have truly experienced everything Dr. Greer says he has. Would he or she stay tight-lipped about the more esoteric stuff, or let it all out of the jar?

If you KNEW everything Dr. Greer says to be true, would you really think it is that strange or wrong to talk about it in public?

I don't quite believe that Dr. Greer is telling the truth -- but if I were to visit a secret base and be shown Lilliputian aliens, for example, I think I would go ahead and tell people about it. I know my friends and family would at least believe me, because I don't make stuff up like that.

But some people do, and that's the problem.



posted on Nov, 12 2007 @ 02:58 PM
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I believe that most UFO sightings are man made planes, just thought I'd post this as I really can't be bothered to get my mind into Star Trek like stories about things. Most of the sightings and videos do not show super speeds, especially footage of ufo type craft over Area 51, they can't be unless the US have suddenly gone leeps and bounds into creating a anti-gravity device (which we know they can't of by Physicists who have worked for the government and the rest of the world), which is beyond our current knowledge. Anything over 10g's would knock out a human being because of lack of blood to the brain. To maneuver a craft like a ufo at high g's would be impossible without some kind of anti-gravity simple as. Been a fun thread, but I'm bored of it cya.



posted on Nov, 12 2007 @ 03:10 PM
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It surprises me to see so many people on this board demanding video and photo evidence, when you very well know that as soon as he released it, there would be endless accusations of fraud in the form of photochops and CGI. Not to mention, it would quickly become part of the mountain of hoaxes and bull# on youtube, with comments like... 'dude this one have #ee actin g i cn see the poligons the lights all wrong i know ima 3d artis!'
i'm sure he wants his material to end up like everything else that has been thrown into the funny basket. i have no doubt that if congressional hearings are held, the material he has will certainly not be withheld, and will hold more credence with serious, professional viewers by keeping it away from tards at youtube and similar places. places like youtube would certainly take away any believability.

photos and video are NOT viable forms of evidence now days. there certainly are artists out there now, with the progression of software abilities, that can fool even a professional eye. that is precisely why the man is concentrating on testimony of people with the highest credibility that can be mustered. testimony from high places is the only real and viable source of evidence other than official documents.

and what is so hard to understand that he has to 'put food on his family' one way or another? he gave up a 250,000 dollar a year career for this. do you think it wouldn't be difficult to get use to not having that anymore? he has 4 kids, and from what i can remember, they have all gone through college or presently doing so. not to mention his impossible goal of raising however many millions of dollars for r&d, security etc.. publishing books and selling videos of highly sensitive material that one might be interested in viewing is a logical way of atleast trying to achieve his hefty goals.

i have no idea if he is the real deal, but one thing i do know is, he truly puts his heart into trying to do all this the right way. he's very careful about it. i do believe he has very good intentions, and has given up a whole lot for the cause. his efforts are entirely commendable and deserve more respect from the community that also wants this disclosure to happen. have a bit of patience. big things sometimes DO take years to accomplish. this is no easy task and there are plenty of factors involved.

i have read his first two books, and i'm about halfway through the most recent one. yes, he does have some crazy stories, and sometimes i do sit and think, is this guy for real? can this really be true? did this really happen to him? surely not. but then i remind myself of the heart and soul that is obviously shown in his quest to achieve this seemingly impossible task, the money he has given up, the inevitable loss of atleast some sanity due to stress, and i think.. there has to be something to what he says. i will continue to defend the man as long as he continues to be steadfast in his ultimate goal for disclosure, which is more than can be said for many other so called heroes in the community who gave up LONG before now.

Excellent post by the original poster by the way!





[edit on 12-11-2007 by spacemanjupiter]



posted on Nov, 12 2007 @ 03:17 PM
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Originally posted by Riposte
If you KNEW everything Dr. Greer says to be true, would you really think it is that strange or wrong to talk about it in public?


Short answer: Yes. To clarify my post above, I believe Greer is a political animal. Politicians don't talk about everything they have seen or believe; they are selective. This is quite on purpose and designed to build a constituency of supporters to help you 'spread the word' whether it is your agenda for national health care or aliens. The topic doesn't matter as much as the method, though in some sense the topic may dictate one method over another.

A long time ago I was in the position of fighting against a cell phone tower some corporation wanted to build in my back yard (next lot back). It was to be 270 feet tall, have blinking lights, etc. The neighborhood was composed of 2.5 acre lots and designated as residential by the County-wide comprehensive plan. Our neighborhood gathered up $1000 and hired a local lawyer to oversee our 'prosecution.' People gathered and began throwing out arguments against the tower. It would cause cancer, insisted one loud woman. It would do this. It would do that. But the lawyer said, "If you have half a dozen arguments against something, choose your best two and concentrate on them. Don't bring up the weaker arguments because your opposition will trounce on them and no one will remember your two good ones.

I made our presentation to the County Commissioners. I based our argument on land-use provisions of the comprehensive plan and argued against an 'exceptional use permit' based on alternatives available. I never brought up the tin foil hat stuff about rays causing cancer. I never criticized the concept of 'cell phone' or technology. They were ready for that. We knew that; we didn't use it. We won.

In other words, even if Greer did believe in his heart of hearts that an alien energy anchor being appeared to him in the guise of a woodland moth, it would not advance his cause to make a big deal of it. It would be best if he never brought it up. Now Mothra is gone from his web site. Only those of us who kept copies remember it. He never mentions it. Most of his supporters don't even know about it. It is effectively gone from memory. Whether he has learned his lesson well I don't know, but you can see why he would or should not talk of certain matters that would not advance his cause, even though he believed in them. It must be a fine line between keeping the adrenaline up in excitement and remaining credible, which may explain the diminuitive aliens. I'm not sure, but I do think it would be in his best interests to de-emphasize some things over others to advance his cause.

That is why Ron Paul will never be President. He's too upfront and truthful about what he wants to do.


[edit on 11/12/2007 by schuyler]



posted on Nov, 12 2007 @ 03:29 PM
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Originally posted by spacemanjupiter
It surprises me to see so many people on this board demanding video and photo evidence, when you very well know that as soon as he released it, there would be endless accusations of fraud in the form of photochops and CGI. Not to mention, it would quickly become part of the mountain of hoaxes and bull# on youtube, with comments like... 'dude this one have #ee actin g i cn see the poligons the lights all wrong i know ima 3d artis!'

Excellent post by the original poster by the way!
[edit on 12-11-2007 by spacemanjupiter]


Did you register today just to post this?



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[edit on 12-11-2007 by elevatedone]



posted on Nov, 12 2007 @ 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by schuyler
In other words, even if Greer did believe in his heart of hearts that an alien energy anchor being appeared to him in the guise of a woodland moth, it would not advance his cause to make a big deal of it. It would be best if he never brought it up. Now Mothra is gone from his web site. Only those of us who kept copies remember it. He never mentions it. Most of his supporters don't even know about it. It is effectively gone from memory. Whether he has learned his lesson well I don't know, but you can see why he would or should not talk of certain matters that would not advance his cause, even though he believed in them. It must be a fine line between keeping the adrenaline up in excitement and remaining credible, which may explain the diminuitive aliens. I'm not sure, but I do think it would be in his best interests to de-emphasize some things over others to advance his cause.
[edit on 11/12/2007 by schuyler]


I agree with your assessment completely. Dr. Greer is indeed miscalculating, and that's an understatement.

He is not stupid, so two things come to mind:

    1) What does he gain from talking about stuff like Lilliputian aliens and Mothra (whatever that is)? Do these ridiculous stories bring in new cult followers? Do they help him raise more revenue? What the heck is his motive? I'm not sure altruism is a satisfactory answer, although it's a possibility.


    2) How much money/power has he accumulated from all of this? Perhaps he craves the attention, but to expend all the effort he has to create something as laughable as he has must be paying off in some form or fashion. Does anyone know if he is making more money now than he was as a "country doctor?"


I could understand why he would spend so much time constructing these fantasies if it were in pursuit of something along the lines of L. Ron Hubbard creating Scientology and becoming ridiculously wealthy and powerful, but has he achieved that kind of wealth and power, or is he even approaching it?

What kind of a maniac would waste so much time and effort on a fruitless endeavor?



posted on Nov, 12 2007 @ 05:34 PM
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Originally posted by spacemanjupiter
and what is so hard to understand that he has to 'put food on his family' one way or another? he gave up a 250,000 dollar a year career for this.

but then i remind myself of the heart and soul that is obviously shown in his quest to achieve this seemingly impossible task, the money he has given up,

This has all been discussed before.

I would GLADLY give up a highly stressful job earning $250,000 before tax, to accept a far less stressful life of lecture tours, nature camps and publishing earning more than $250,000 tax free.

Don't try and play the card about 'he gave up being a highly paid Doctor', as it is totally misleading.

He changed professions to become an ever higher paid confidence-man.



posted on Nov, 12 2007 @ 06:28 PM
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The issue of Greer's money, or lack thereof, is largely a red herring. We simply do not know his financial circumstances. To we-who-are-not-doctors "giving up" $250K a year may seem preposterous, but I think the jury is out on that one and agree with tezzajw. If you could quit nights, weekends, and on-call full shifts stitching up knife fight wounds for a more pleasant existence, wouldn't you? The suicide rate among doctors is between 40% and 100% higher than for the general population. No doubt about it: It's a stressful job. I personally know more than one lawyer in similar circumstances, by the way, who have quit over the same sorts of reasons.

Greer is obviously not hurting financially. He bragged recently about how expensive it was to send his daughters to college at private universities. I don't remember the exact figures, but I know it was over $100K per year. Now, the fact is, he's doing it. If he's doing it, he has the money. Where did he get it? Dunno. I suppose it could be from $800 camping trips, but I am inclined to doubt it. In other words, I don't have enough information to "accuse" him of doing that.

My best guess, which is strictly conjecture, is that he inherited. He's the right age. It happens all the time. As a doctor he also might have invested well early in his career. Hit the right start-up at 25 cents a share and sell for $20.00. That happens, too (I hope at least one more time!) The point is that there are a number of ways Greer can do just fine financially without continuing to schlepp at being a doctor. I'm not amazed he's not doing it. I don't blame him for not doing it. I'm thinking maybe that's not the real issue here. It's a diversion and it's speculation. It also tends to be used by both extremes. People think he's a saint for quitting medicine and 'sacrificing' his career, or that he is a charlatan with a better gig for doing the exact same thing. Same exact evidence, vastly different conclusions, therefore it's not evidence of anything at all.

The real issues are things like 'Where are the witnesses?' 'What about this energy device?' 'What aliens?' etc. That's an area where he hasn't produced much but stories and diversions, and that's where he needs to be held accountable.

[edit on 11/12/2007 by schuyler]



posted on Nov, 12 2007 @ 07:25 PM
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he did hold up a small crystal sphere once or twice and explain how “communication” can occur via the clear orb. He also spent some time describing some of the equipment he takes on his mountain/desert sojourns and how he, his followers, and his “scientific team” have been able to summon “entities”, have “experiences”, witness “vectoring craft and beings”, etc. I sure would like to see a picture or video of such an event one day – though Greer left us with the impression that though the lasers/rangefinders/scopes and other equipment was all very tangible and real, that the results these experiences bring were somehow manifested in unique, new “consciences” – in other words in your head. I may be wrong on this point, but it seems much of Greer’s work, in this regard at least, is quite ethereal and can only be appreciated once you’ve reached some higher astral plane (?).

HAHAHAHA

People here at ATS actually respect this guy. ATS is supposed to deny ignorance. I've been posting here for years. Yet, ATS is by and large one of the most ignorant communities I've come across from the internet because people here can't distinguish between reality and imagination.

Some of you people following Icke, this guy, and all the people like AlienAgenda need to follow the scientific method in your thought processes or the world will, and rightly so, see you as crackpots.

[edit on 11/12/07 by RedDragon]



posted on Nov, 12 2007 @ 07:34 PM
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Tezzajw,
How I'm just dying to throw your avatar into the microwave to watch it melt down into a bubbling heap of gook!
(but not all the time.. lol)

Spacemanjupiter was just saying things as they are and you know that!

This said, I too am frustrated that Greer's not releasing visual matter to back up some of his claims but for different reasons than what yours are but GREAT that you and others here are forcing his hand to cough up some stuff for us to view and analyze so in this regard I'm root'n for ya! Keep up the good work and I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE your avatar!




[edit on 12-11-2007 by Palasheea]



posted on Nov, 12 2007 @ 07:51 PM
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Originally posted by RedDragon
Some of you people following Icke, this guy, and all the people like AlienAgenda need to follow the scientific method in your thought processes or the world will, and rightly so, see you as crackpots.


Umm, I'm sure Redragon is a wonderful human being and all and I respect his posts immensely. And I also think Outrageo needs no defense, for he is known for his posts. In this case he was attempting to give a quite neutral report (That's what we hope ALL journalists do, I would hope) You see, I've been following Outrageo's posts for some time here, and I know he's not in the category of a "Greer Supporter." He is quite aware of the inconsistencies and problems surrounding Greer's work.

As bovarcher said of Outrageo:


Your informative and comprehensive report on Steven Greer's public lecture on 10 November was nothing short of brilliant. Thanks so much. Ye're a credit to ATS, which needs more of this caliber of post.


I think that is majority opinion and I certainly concur.

However, I find the tone and content of reddragon's post here a somewhat lacking. It provides no new information or data, adds no insight into the issues, and appears to criticize the entire ATS population. On slashdot it would be called "flamebait." He talks about Icke and AlienAgenda, which two issues are not the subject of this thread, nor have they been mentioned in context of the discussion. I wonder what the point was? I rather think people are 'known for their posts' one way or another. And though reddragon has been here for his professed 'long time' since 2003 he has managed to post about 600 times, receive applause once, and managed to accumulate -60 (that's MINUS 60) some odd ATS points. Outrageo's continued excellent performance here speaks for itself and, in my extremely humble opinion, is much preferred.

Having said that, I must say I do completely agree with reddragon about Icke.


[edit on 11/12/2007 by schuyler]



posted on Nov, 12 2007 @ 08:22 PM
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reply to post by schuyler
 


I'm not talking about the OP. I'm talking about the many, many ATSers that take crackpots like Icke and Greer seriously.



posted on Nov, 12 2007 @ 08:46 PM
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Originally posted by RedDragon
reply to post by schuyler
 


I'm not talking about the OP. I'm talking about the many, many ATSers that take crackpots like Icke and Greer seriously.


Huh?
Then why did you start off that post quoting the OP?
Here's what you quoted.

he did hold up a small crystal sphere once or twice and explain how “communication” can occur via the clear orb. He also spent some time describing some of the equipment he takes on his mountain/desert sojourns and how he, his followers, and his “scientific team” have been able to summon “entities”, have “experiences”, witness “vectoring craft and beings”, etc. I sure would like to see a picture or video of such an event one day – though Greer left us with the impression that though the lasers/rangefinders/scopes and other equipment was all very tangible and real, that the results these experiences bring were somehow manifested in unique, new “consciences” – in other words in your head. I may be wrong on this point, but it seems much of Greer’s work, in this regard at least, is quite ethereal and can only be appreciated once you’ve reached some higher astral plane (?).


Naturally, because you started off that post with a quote from the OP then is it any wonder why Schuyler thought you were criticizing, right off the bat, what the OP was saying in that quote that you quoted at the beginning of your post that Schuyler is commenting on.
Yet, you say that you are not talking about the OP... I'm confused.


[edit on 12-11-2007 by Palasheea]



posted on Nov, 12 2007 @ 09:22 PM
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www.ufowatchdog.com...

Reportedly plagiarizes the UFO work of others and sells as his own, sells do-it-yourself ET contact kits - now you too can steer in extraterrestrial spacecraft with a flashlight and never record them just like Doc Greer does. Made claims of contacting extraterrestrials through meditation. Claimed that U.S. military forces attacked a Colorado ET base inside a mountain using nerve gas, no evidence to back claim. Had dinner with CIA Director and spun tale of having briefed CIA Director about ETs for hours. Hosted press conference with credible UFO witnesses on Capitol Hill - ruined it and his own credibility by selling the work of others with his name on it and using bogus witnesses. Allegeldy attempted to charge Washington State MUFON members $2500.00 each to demonstrate how he can vector in UFOs - Greer got to choose the location and the time...mmmmmm. SEE: Doc Greer Sells The Truth, Greer: UFOlogy's Own Worst Enemy, CSETI, Greer's claim of military attacking ET underground base with nerve gas, and a refutation of Greer's claims of having briefed the CIA on UFOs.



www.cseti.org...

Ambassador to the Universe Trainings

Opportunities for 1-week expeditions with world-renowned

CSETI International Director, Steven M. Greer, M.D.

2004 Training/Expedition Schedule - Updated July 27, 2004

June 12 -19, 2004 Crestone, Colorado - COMPLETED

August 7 - 14, 2004 Mt. Shasta, California - REGISTRATION CLOSED JULY 24, 2004

Others Possible - To Be Announced


Each training provides the skills for anyone to form their own research team capable of contacting extraterrestrial life forms within the framework of Universal Peace. The foundation of the work is the understanding and experience of remote viewing and remote vectoring of ET spacecraft into a research site. Participants will also train with ET communication systems including lasers and electronics as well as thought interaction with machines. These systems allow ET technologies to interface directly via the framework of universal consciousness, thus negating the limitations of linear time and space. We frequently have very close encounters with ET craft during these trainings and expeditions.

Registration Fees :

# $700 if this is your first week-long CSETI training, $650 if you have already attended one. This fee includes tuition and training materials. Note: First-timers with the training kit or Dr. Greer's ET Contact book get $25 to $50 discount. Read about the Working Group Training Kit (or order separately) here.



posted on Nov, 12 2007 @ 09:37 PM
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reply to post by Orion437
 


Yeah, well, okay. The hard thing about the structure of a forum is that you don't get much background information. So stuff gets repeated quite often. The fact is though, that we know all this. That's not a criticism of you posting this, but on ATS, by and large, Greer is well known. Positions of ATS members are relatively well 'staked out.' The issue on this thread, specifically, is Greer's latest speech, which Outrageo graciously offered to attend. I think we all thought this would be an excellent opportunity for Outrageo to ask some interesting questions, which we all participated in suggesting in another thread. As it turned out, it was attended by far more people than we had anticipated, so that part of the original expectation didn't work out. That's okay, though. Outrageo still reported what he'd heard. The issue, then, is to discern any new information, or perhaps a change in position. I don't pretend to speak for anyone else, but my sense is that nobody wants to take another fling in the mud to discuss Mothra again. We're just kinda tired of that. Just my opinion and no ding on anybody intended.





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