Forgotten Abominations Of The Bible.

Originally posted by jakyll
And why should people get married?

If that is how you feel then why worry about it? Is it because just want to be able to do what normal people do?

Marriage as practiced in Western society is a Judeo/Christian religious institution. If you are not Christian, why oh why would you want to copy a Christian ceremony? And that applies to non-Christian heterosexuals as well.

Some people spend their whole lives never going to church,they don't believe and they don't care for Jesus,but they get hitched under the eyes of God and for some reason thats better than 2 people who are followers of Christ,who live by his teachings,who visit church on a regular basis and who just happen to be gay!

Where are you getting this crap from? I don’t know of any well educated Christian who thinks that two heterosexuals MOCKING marriage is better than two gays having a close relationship.

Like I said already, the problem is with the sex, not the companionship. I am married to a woman, the love of my life, however I have many close male friends, men that I hug and call "brother" and men that I am not afraid to say "love you bro" to. They are great friends, and if I was not married I probably be roommates and close companions with one or some of them. Now, that does NOT mean we need nor have a desire to kiss, fondle, or have sex with each other.

If you feel like your relationship with a person is not worth as much if you aren’t swapping body fluids then you may want to speak with a therapist or a priest/minister/rabbi.

And also be aware that more than one study has shown that a shocking percentage of happily married couples have NEVER had sex.

Sex with two consenting adults of the same gender is a worse sin than a person forcing themselves on another in a violent,degrading and soul destroying act! And also worse than a man [fornicating with],a 2yr old child!!

Really now, was all that necessary? You have issues to deal with friend; I hope you get the help you need. The average person has a mental block about discussing or picturing the graphic nature of the act you just spelled out as if you were writing a letter to a NAMBLA porn magazine.

Now that said, I didn’t say that homosexual actions are a worse sin, simply that one is no better than the other.

To help you understand this, let’s take two completely unrelated sins, murder and lying.

Cavscout the liar is no better than cavscout the murderer, even if the lies hurt no other person. Sin is sin.

Once you accept that there is a life after this Earth, that we are eternal souls, you realize that little in this life is actually as bad as it seems. All men will die, so is murder really so bad? Yes, it is, because it is a sin, however only if you FEAR DEATH as an end to existence do you see it as the worst sin.

In truth, all sin is a betrayal of the Lord and a spit in the face of the trials Christ was put through on our behalf.

Now, the only time your sins become worse is if they in turn cause another person to sin.

By perform homosexual acts with a person you claim to love you are actually damaging them spiritually.

The books i was talking about were originally in the Bible so therefore they must have been fit to be included!

Educate yourself. There was no Bible before a Roman council put all those books in one place and standardized them.



What remains now are just fragments,but they were obviously whole when they were once in the Bible

But they are not whole now, and therefore all but useless for teaching regardless of the existing content.

reply to post by cavscout

Now, it is a FACT that we have risen to the top of the food chain, that we dominate the Earth and that no other animal has built jets and put itself in orbit.

Oh, and lets see a dolphin build a nuke, or even something as simple as a pencil.

Why would they,animals don't need such things.There are millions of humans on this planet who don't see the need for things such as planes,automobiles,computers,mobile phones etc.They usually get called "backwards" for it.
There is lots of technology we don't actually need,it just makes life easier.People managed to live without the things mentioned above for centuries,life would not end if we did not have them.

And let me know when monkeys figure out that whole fire thing, k?

Monkeys don't need fire.Their fur keeps them warm as well as cool and they're happy to eat meat raw as are many other animals.

Where it becomes a problem is when they have sexual relations.

But the act of sex is part of a relationship,it can be powerful and beautiful.Imagine not being able to touch the one you love,ever! Could you honestly live like that?

See, the thing is that homosexual behavior is deviance. You may not like that title, however it by definition is deviating from the norm. Your assertion that not allowing gay men and women the pleasure of sex with each other somehow is detrimental is a symptom of a deviant obsession with sex, probably born of some type of childhood abuse or demonic possession.

I personally don't mind the word deviance,because as you said,it just means to deviate from the norm.Wearing odd socks is deviant behaviour too
And as i said above the act of sex with the one you love is wonderful and allows the heart and soul to join together in a whole new way.Why should only hetrosexual people be allowed to experiance such a union?



[edit on 14-12-2007 by jakyll]

Originally posted by jakyll

Male animals when in heat will sometimes have sex with other males if they cannot find a female.Is that act an abomination?
Male animals have also been known to have sex with other males to show that they are the dominant one.Is that an act of abomination or just a part of nature?

I love it when people put forth that argument. I usually counter it by pointing out that some animals also eat their young. It is Natural for them to do so. So following your line of reasoning..should one conclude that it is OK for humans to do so?

Surely not even you would not reach that conclusion. We are not animals, God made man and elevated him high above that of animals, giving them intellect, and the ability to make conscious decisions that are not governed by instinct.

We cannot and should base our decisions of what is right or wrong based on the actions & behavior of the animal kingdom.

Originally posted by jakyll


No,i'm condemning those who claim to be tolerant of all yet exclude people from that which they find tolerable.Exclusion does not equal tolerance,it never can!

So I would assume that you do not exclude those with strong religious views that homosexuality is a grave sin from your circle of friends?

I may be jumping to conclusions but your condemnation & vitriolic references to them would seem to indicate that you are not tolerant of thier view.
I apologize if I have misjudged your comments.

Is it truly disgraceful for 2 people who love each other to express it in a physical way?

Since you asked.....Yes, It is if they are breaking Gods laws regarding fornication.

Isn't rape and pedophilia a much more wicked act?

Absolutely. The very fact that God saw fit to forbid those actions should show all that he has certain standards that he expects people to live up to.

Are you not in agreement that those acts should be forbidden? Why limit yourself to accepting only some of Gods righteous standards?


[edit on 14-12-2007 by Sparky63]

cavscout. I just saw your post here that states much of the same arguments I posted here.
You though are much more articulate. www.abovetopsecret.com...
I gave you a star for your comments.

[edit on 14-12-2007 by Sparky63]

reply to post by cavscout

Really now, was all that necessary? You have issues to deal with friend; I hope you get the help you need. The average person has a mental block about discussing or picturing the graphic nature of the act you just spelled out as if you were writing a letter to a NAMBLA porn magazine.

The reason for my graphic reply was because you said this,

I would agree that they are more wicked, although probably not worse sin.

I am not trying to offend you,i am trying to show you that your comment implied (to me) that you think the afore mentioned graphic detail is "probably not a worse sin" than gay sex.

Cavscout the liar is no better than cavscout the murderer, even if the lies hurt no other person. Sin is sin.

Not really.
There are Venial Sins and there are Mortal Sins.
There is also the difference of knowingly committing a sin and unknowingly committing one.



And though it appears that all i care about is sex (coz i aint shut up about it.lol.),that is not true.I find a union of the heart,the soul and the mind extremely fulfilling,but there are times that i want to express how i feel in a physical way and experiance what i mentioned in my other post.

Educate yourself. There was no Bible before a Roman council put all those books in one place and standardized them.

The Koine Bible was the first version of the Christian New Testament.It was written in Greek and Aramaic between 52-100 AD.It wasn't until 322 AD at the Council of Nicene that Rome & Constantine the Great got involved.Some time between 350-400 AD a new version was released,the New Testament Canon Version.It contained only 27 books,the Koine Bible had 45!

reply to post by Sparky63

So I would assume that you do not exclude those with strong religious views that homosexuality is a grave sin from your circle of friends?

I'm a member of the LDS Church so i have lots of friends who think that being gay is a grave sin.Just because i don't agree with someones point of view (and vice versa) does not mean we can't be friends,i just dislike hypocritical attitudes and behaviour and i'm not afraid to say so!

Are you not in agreement that those acts should be forbidden? Why limit yourself to accepting only some of Gods righteous standards?

I whole heartedly agree those acts should be forbidden! I tell my Catholic friends that they should be in the 10 Commandments,lol.
Standards and attitudes change do they not?
For example.In the time of Adam & Eve incest was an accepted act,and also at the time when the great Flood ended(as Noah and the other 7 had to repopulate the earth.)Yet in other parts of the Bible it is sinful and the sentence for such behaviour is death.
Today incest is still a sin in most parts of the world,yet tribal communities still perform this act as they have so few people that if they did not they would cease to exist!

[edit on 14-12-2007 by jakyll]

Originally posted by jakyll

I'm a member of the LDS Church so i have lots of friends who think that being gay is a grave sin.Just because i don't agree with someones point of view (and vice versa) does not mean we can't be friends,i just dislike hypocritical attitudes and behavior and i'm not afraid to say so!

I find that very interesting because the LDS seems very clear on the organizations view of Homosexuality.

For instance in 2001, a new revision to pamphlet sponsored by the First Presidency and titled "For the Strength of Youth: Fulfilling Our Duty to God" says;

"Homosexual activity is a serious sin. If you find your-self struggling with same-gender attraction, seek counsel from your parents and bishop. They will help you."

You may also find this quote interesting:

"This heinous homosexual sin is of the ages. Many cities and civilizations have gone out of existence because of it. It was present in Israel’s wandering days, tolerated by the Greeks, and found in the baths of corrupt Rome."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "President Kimball Speaks Out on Morality," LDS New Era, Nov. 1980, Page 39

I have an uncle who is a Morman and homosexuality is viewed as a grave sin in that religion. While they do not exclude practicing homosexuals they strongly encourage all who are desire to fornicate with a member of the same sex to struggle against those unclean desires and seek counseling to overcome it.

I am glad you are associating with people who do not condone or accept the immoral lifestyle you lead.

reply to post by Sparky63


Yes,the Church used to have very extreme views and extreme ways of handling homosexuality,but they have mellowed a lot.Many are much more accepting these days,though some deal with it by totally ignoring it,out of sight out of mind type of thing.I usually get told that my sexuality is an issue between me and God and if he's happy with me so are they.
But,as always with faith,you will get those who still hold that extreme point of view.If they do me no harm i don't have a problem with them.
We're all sinners,i just do a lil extra




[edit on 14-12-2007 by jakyll]

Originally posted by jakyll

Standards and attitudes change do they not?
For example.In the time of Adam & Eve incest was an accepted act,and also at the time when the great Flood ended(as Noah and the other 7 had to repopulate the earth.)Yet in other parts of the Bible it is sinful and the sentence for such behaviour is death.
Today incest is still a sin in most parts of the world,yet tribal communities still perform this act as they have so few people that if they did not they would cease to exist!

[edit on 14-12-2007 by jakyll]

Gods laws regarding fornication have not changed. His clear instruction to the first century Christians have not been repealed.

Its interesting that you would mention Tribal communities that still practice that. It may be part of their custom, their tradition, But they are not claiming to be Christian.

Here is an interesting scripture that has a bearing on whether tradition should supersede Gods law.

(Mark 7:6-8) 6 He said to them: “Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU hypocrites, as it is written, ‘This people honor me with [their] lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 7 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.’ 8 Letting go the commandment of God, YOU hold fast the tradition of men.”

The Bible record does indicate that Cain married one of his sisters we can read that at (Gen. 4:17; 5:4) and that Abram married his half sister. (Gen. 20:12)

But later, in the Law given through Moses, such marriage unions were specifically forbidden.So the question then is:

Why was brother-and-sister marriage not inappropriate at the beginning of mankind’s history? God created Adam and Eve perfect and purposed that all humankind descend from them. (Gen. 1:28; 3:20)

Obviously some marrying of close relatives, especially within the first few generations, would occur. Even after sin made its appearance, there was relatively little danger of marked deformities in the children during early generations, because the human race was much closer to the perfection that had been enjoyed by Adam and Eve. This is attested to by the longevity of people then. (See Genesis 5:3-8; 25:7.)

But about 2,500 years after Adam became a sinner, God prohibited incestuous marriage.

This served to safeguard the offspring and it elevated the sexual morality of Gods servants above that of people around them who were then engaging in all manner of depraved practices.—See Leviticus 18:2-18.

For most of mankind, incestuous relationships offend the sensibilities and as you stated, is considered a sin. Once again, this view is in line with Gods clear view on the matter.

Like I asked before, Why accept only some of his righteous standards, They are in place only to benefit us.

Mans laws, traditions & customs are always in a state of flux, but it is inconceivable that God would change his principles and standards based on the whims of imperfect human society.

Gah, the names of the people escape me at the moment, but who was it in the bible who fled to a cave with his two daughters? They got horny, got daddy drunk and made a plan to get it on with him while he "didn't know what he was doing" (that excuse doesn't wash with me at all, perhaps "didn't feel guilty about it at the time" or something).

Incest happens a few times in the bible. It's what they did to ensure the survival of their genes. Nasty!

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
Gah, the names of the people escape me at the moment, but who was it in the bible who fled to a cave with his two daughters? They got horny, got daddy drunk and made a plan to get it on with him while he "didn't know what he was doing" (that excuse doesn't wash with me at all, perhaps "didn't feel guilty about it at the time" or something).

Incest happens a few times in the bible. It's what they did to ensure the survival of their genes. Nasty!

That was the account about Lot. His two daughters feared that they would remain isolated and not find suitable husbands did exactly as you stated.

However the account is does not indicate that God approved of their actions.
The account simply documents what happened.

The very fact that Lot’s daughters got him intoxicated suggests that they realized that he would not consent to having sexual relations with them while he was sober. But as aliens in the land, his daughters felt that this was the only way to prevent the extinction of Lot’s family.

This they did to preserve offspring from their father. As a result, each daughter had a son, from whom the Moabites and the Ammonites descended.

It should also be remembered that Lot’s daughters had resided among the morally debased inhabitants of Sodom. In view of these factors, it would not have been difficult for them to justify their course of action in their own minds.

The narrative is not presented in the Bible to stimulate erotic thoughts. It is there for a purpose, revealing the relationship of the Moabites and Ammonites to the descendants of Abraham who became known as Israelites

The historical facts are conveyed without any comment respecting God’s approval or disapproval of Lot’s twice committing incest in an intoxicated state. But in later portions of the Bible record, God’s condemnation of drunkenness is clearly stated again and again. (Prov. 20:1; 23:20, 21, 29-35; 1 Cor. 6:9, 10)

Likewise, in his Law to Israel, God later made clear his prohibition of incest, saying: “You people must not come near, any man of you, to any close fleshly relative of his to lay bare nakedness. . . . The nakedness of your father and the nakedness of your mother you must not lay bare.” (Lev. 18:6, 7)

The penalty for violating the law on incest was death. (Lev. 18:29)

While Lot and his daughters were not under the Law, they were, nevertheless, aware of the impropriety of having relations with their own father, as shown by the fact that they first got him intoxicated.

The inclusion of the information about Lot and his daughters in the Scriptural record should really help us to appreciate that the Bible is a book of truth. Even when persons who were known as God’s servants became involved in improper acts, the Bible does not conceal this.

However, at all times such things are recounted, not to entertain or to stimulate a desire to indulge in immoral conduct, but to provide a background for understanding other events.

[edit on 15-12-2007 by Sparky63]

Ok I don't have an issue with homosexuals or sexual diversity... yanno, it is the no judgement thing...

this is a legitimate question:

is sodomy a natural act?

Really, sodomy needs an anus... we need an anus to expel waste matter!

Sexual intercourse is natural. Just who came up with sodomy?

Was it just "ooo here is another hole... I wonder?"

Rationally I consider sodomy to be unclean... for obvious reasons...

How is that a natural function?


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Sparky63
However the account is does not indicate that God approved of their actions. The account simply documents what happened.

Regarding Lot and his Daughters = Yes that is correct




[edit on 15-12-2007 by Thurisaz]

reply to post by Thurisaz

is sodomy a natural act?

Well men urinate through the penis,and urine is also waste.
Sodomy seems a more unclean act though,for obvious reasons.

As for saying was it just another hole;for gay men its the only hole! (apart from the mouth)

reply to post by Sparky63

Like I asked before, Why accept only some of his righteous standards, They are in place only to benefit us.

Is the answer not obvious?

I am a lesbian,and to accept that how i feel and what i do is an abomination would be detremental to my state of mind.I have experianced that before.
It leads only to self hatred and loathing,you have no confidence and you feel worthless!!


For those that say that the laws of what not to eat have not been repeated in the Bible does not matter,it is the Law of God and as you said,God does not change the rules.
To say that that Divine Law should not adapt means that Paul's teachings must be followed.(as he spoke for God)
Which means that all women must be ruled by men,they must be dominated,kept at home,not allowed to learn,to teach or to go out to work,they must be silent in church and to cover their heads,as if in shame.
Would you find such treatment fare in todays world???

Paul also said,in Galatians 3:26-29,

26.For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27.For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29.And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So how can we all be one if there are different rules and regulations depending on your sex or social status???





[edit on 15-12-2007 by jakyll]

I am a lesbian,and to accept that how i feel and what i do is an abomination would be detremental to my state of mind.

If I was a child-rapist, and claimed that "to accept that how i feel and what i do is an abomination would be detremental to my state of mind", would you be impressed?

It's sheerly irrelevant, surely?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

reply to post by roger_pearse

If I was a child-rapist, and claimed that "to accept that how i feel and what i do is an abomination would be detremental to my state of mind", would you be impressed?

But these 2 things are totally different.Homosexuality is not about harming others,or forcing people to do things against their will.Rape,of any kind,is!
How you can even compare them is beyond me.

Can't read the entire thread as it's too long, but want to respond.

I just get so disgusted listening to people try to legitimize homosexual behavior, and even more so when they act as if the Bible actually condones it. The bible does not. There are plenty of versus saying it's a sin. Do I need to post them all? Even fornication between heterosexuals is a sin, so how the hell could fornication between gays not be a sin? There is virtually no logical thought left. Just because you want to do something doesn't mean you're just supposed to give in and to it. I get tired of hearing gays claim they're born that way, so it's okay to live a life of sodomy and fornication. That's bull.

Homosexuality also equals stupidity. An elementary school level course in sex education is all that's needed for you to learn some basic things like sex is for reproduction. Two men can't reproduce, so what the hell are they doing trying. Just as in nuts and bolts, there is a female shape and a male shape that fit together. Since two males both have outies, they don't go together. A 2 year old can follow this, yet grown homosexuals can't.

There are plenty of other sick sexual perversions, like pedophilia, beastiality, necrophilia, incest, and so on. Yet some are trying to justiy homosexuality as something different and okay. Morals and sin don't just have to do with whether you're hurting somebody else. You don't hurt that dead body you have sex with do you? You are defiling your body and another's is what you're doing, and you're also causing another person to engage in sin dragging them down with you. You're engaging in filthy, obscene, vulgar, degrading human behavior. Like most people, we can't understand how they can't see this. It's a sin, and you will pay for it.

I'm reminded of a woman who told about her hell-like after death experience, where she had these awful beings stuffing excrement and vomit in all of her bodily orifices. She said while this was happening, she also saw fornicators, adulterers, and HOMOSEXUALS floating in this river of lava screaming in pain. We need more messages like this brought back from the afterlife. Damn people think they can get out of judgment by trying to find loopholes in the bible or elsewhere. Well you can't.



[edit on 15-12-2007 by Elhardt]

reply to post by Elhardt


Don't be shy,tell us what you really think.lol.

Homosexuality also equals stupidity. An elementary school level course in sex education is all that's needed for you to learn some basic things like sex is for reproduction. Two men can't reproduce, so what the hell are they doing trying. Just as in nuts and bolts, there is a female shape and a male shape that fit together. Since two males both have outies, they don't go together. A 2 year old can follow this, yet grown homosexuals can't.

Just because sex can lead to a child being born does not mean that it is the soul purpose.Sex,especially with the one you love can be very enjoyable.If sex was for reproduction only,why make it so pleasurable?
A man can ejaculate withing minutes of being aroused which is all you need to create life,but no one finds that satisfying so sex is prolonged.

If you truly believe that the Laws of God should be followed to the letter,then homosexuals who do the physical act are to be put to death.People who commit adultery are to be put to death.If incest is committed then both are to be put to death even if one member of the family is the victim and not a willing participent.It seems these Laws can be changed as life and attitudes have advanced,but others can't.So much for those who say we should not pick and choose parts of the Bible to believe in!


In Samuel 20 it says,

17Thus Jonathan made a covenant with the house of David, saying, "May the LORD seek out the enemies of David." 18 Jonathan made David swear again by his love for him; for he loved him as he loved his own life. ...

As well as,

41As soon as the boy had gone, David rose from beside the stone heap and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. He bowed three times, and they kissed each other, and wept with each other; David wept the more.

This relationship can be seen as a homosexual one.If it wasn't why would Saul react in the manner quoted below.

Samuel 20:30.

“You son of a perverse, rebellious woman! Do I not know that you have chosen the son of Jesse to your own shame, and to the shame of your mother’s nakedness?”

(and its not just homosexuals who see this relationship as being something more than just friends.)

I get tired of hearing gays claim they're born that way, so it's okay to live a life of sodomy and fornication. That's bull.

For those that say they were born that way,it usually means that they knew from a young age that they were gay as they have never been attracted to the opposite sex.

There are plenty of other sick sexual perversions, like pedophilia, beastiality, necrophilia, incest, and so on.

And whats the big,big difference between them and homosexuality?
Sex between 2 gay men or 2 gay women is that there is no domination,they are 2 consenting adults.The perversions you have mentioned involve force,violence,domination and cruelty.You would think that was easy to understand wouldn't you!

Damn people think they can get out of judgment by trying to find loopholes in the bible or elsewhere. Well you can't.

So much for love thy neighbour and hate the sin not the sinner!!








[edit on 15-12-2007 by jakyll]

Originally posted by Elhardt
Even fornication between heterosexuals is a sin, so how the hell could fornication between gays not be a sin?

I'm not sure if people are actually saying that homosexuality is not a sin, I think that the message is: if homosexual sex is on the same level as heterosexual sex, why the hatred?

Originally posted by Elhardt
Two men can't reproduce, so what the hell are they doing trying.

I'm so sorry for you, I really am. You can't even begin to understand a life that's not like yours. Noone is "trying", is not like there's two heterosexual guys in a room being bored and say "hey, let's try and have sex just for the fun of it!". Believe it or not, people have strong impulses towards things. In the same way that you (assuming that you're an heterosexual male) would have an impulse if your wife, girlfriend, escort or whatever were standing naked in front of you. Homosexual man or woman don't are homosexual because they want to "try", but because they do not feel sexual attraction towards people of the opposite sex. Honey, you are the one that need to get back school and learn a few things.

Originally posted by Elhardt
She said while this was happening, she also saw fornicators, adulterers, and HOMOSEXUALS floating in this river of lava screaming in pain.

LMAO. And how did she know they were gay? Oh, I can totally see it: a grown man wearing a Judy Garland t-shirt while being torturated, great stuff.

I was going to mention the fact that the "afterlife" most people see is nothing more than hallucinations made by drugs released in your brain (and this is specially true considering that people usually see different things and they all have to do with *their* image of heaven or hell), but I don't think you are going to accept that so I'll just drop it.

However there is something very particular regarding religions that I don't see come up very often. It's beyond the idea that they were made for controlling people or blah blah blah. I truly accept everyone's beliefs, but it gets to a point in where you have to stop the respect and start being nasty. I mean, if your believe is that the color red is intolerable and shouldn't exist, that's fine by me. If you go out and start burning buildings with red walls and people with red clothes, then it's not fine with me.

I think everyone could respect a religion if the people of that religion would limit themself to play "eternity in hell" only between eachother. Because it is completely annoying when someone just stops you in the street to let you know that you are going to that person's vision of hell, when you not share at all his beliefs. In my case, I don't believe that the bible condemns homosexuality but I couldn't care less either way because I don't base my beliefs in the bible and much less on any church.

Religious people, learn to be respectful and to stay in your place because absolutely noone in the whole wide world cares about your beliefs except the people of your own religion. For the rest of us, we're fine with you as long as you keep your comments based on things that have no value to us to your grupal worship sessions.

Originally posted by Elhardt
I'm reminded of a woman who told about her hell-like after death experience, where she had these awful beings stuffing excrement and vomit in all of her bodily orifices.

..and that reminds me of what christian nuns did to children in an orphanage in new zealand [made them eat their own vomit]. maybe she was one of those nuns and that was her punnishment. that'd be such a co-incidence!

She said while this was happening, she also saw fornicators, adulterers, and HOMOSEXUALS floating in this river of lava screaming in pain. We need more messages like this brought back from the afterlife.

..but if she [and they] was so immoral that she got sent to hell.. how could we believe she's telling the truth? Your friend could be delusional, claiming false witness and might be a compulsive liar..

that is.. if she even exists..

[edit on 10-1-2008 by riley]