Forgotten Abominations Of The Bible.

reply to post by mentalempire


old testament doesnt apply to christians ? i assume you mean every book of the tanakh not the covenant made between G-D and israel ? if you mean the tanakh which contains the 10 commandments----- then going by your theory i would not be sinning if:i /lied about you to others/stole all you have/committed adultery with your wife and then murdered you ????????

reply to post by blackthorne


since scripture indictes that adam and eve were the first pair of modern type humans then it stands to reason that it was normal early on for brothers and sisters to marry until the point G-D would have said-----no more and it is evident also that all the different races would have come out of the first pair.so did G-D sin by doing it this way?i dont think so------when you are G-D you can kill and make alive without sinning.lot and his daughters--------yes it was a sin and hopefully they repented of it--------dont you want G-D to forgive you for your sins also?if you cant forgive others G-D says your sins will not be forgiven either.matthew 18:32-35

reply to post by jakyll


guess what ?----G-D doesnt hate us They are offering us the chance to live forever-----but just as with the situation where the pre-flood world thumbed its nose at G-D and only 8 were saved out of it so now G-D is giving us the opportunity to join Their family if we can control ourselves and not run around making other people miserable by breaking G-Ds laws-----the next time G-D cleanses this earth it will be by fire and this fire will be so intense that the oceans will evaporate and be no more revelation21:1 thus fulfilling malachi 4 those that are left alive will not be humans anymore but rather former humans that have been taken into the G-D family.1 corinthians 15:49-58.this is the reward i strive for----i want to live forever but humanly that is impossible------no amount of body part transplants with keep us alive forever

reply to post by jakyll


free will is out the window ?------you mean when Messiah comes and establishes His government on earth ? well G-Ds laws are going to be enforced one way or another otherwise there will be anarchy and G-D is not the author of confusion-----as i said the crazies will not be allowed to run around making the rest of us miserable so their conduct will be regulated till they smarten up.isaiah 30:20-21 G-D is not interested in making us into robots but neither do They need anymore criminals.

reply to post by zysin5

I am new to this site and this topic is a good one to debate. I truly believe that religion especially the Catholics, have underminded even the greatest leaders of all time. Remind you, I am not a religion basher, I just believe all religions were started to gain some type of contrl over the masses. By threatening the masses with fire and brimstone for non conformance to whatever relgion it may be, it works well alongside a leader or dictator. They soon realized that together they had almost total control over the population. Thats why our forefathers seperated church and state but any person can clearly see that it sounds good oin paper but there really is no seperation. The church can interpet the bible to agree with anything they want you to believe, such as gay lesbian, drug addiction and a slew of others to justifie their stance.I myself was raised cath. but now only have a strong belief in a higher power , if you will. The existance of being or beings who are there in spirit and I believe ingrained in our deepest dna. For me I pray to one God and I really think we all as humans NEED something to believe in no matter what that may be. Soi I am sorry for the long missive but I wanted to throw it out there and see what others think. joey 978

reply to post by joey978


the god of this world is satan/the devil/the serpent matthew 4 and luke 4.the churches of this world mostly are this fallen angels so you shouldnt expect to find the truth of why G-D created human beings in those organizations.revelation 2:9 I know---------- the blasphemy by those who say they are jews(christians) and are not but are a synagogue of satan.2 corinthians 11:13-15 satans servants disguise themselves as servants of righteousness,whose end shall be according to their deeds.read the bible for yourself beware of wolves in sheeps clothing.

reply to post by yahn goodey


You said,

we will be forced to do what is right and not allowed to make other people miserable like it is now.

Thats why i mentioned free will is out the window.Being forced into something is not freedom!


And i do believe that all of the OT applies to all Christians,not just bits of it.As mentioned,if Jesus is also God,then the OT has great bearing on Christian faiths! It is Jesus in the form of God,the one you worship,it does not matter if he is ministering to the Hebrews as it is the back story of all Christian faiths!

the next time G-D cleanses this earth it will be by fire and this fire will be so intense that the oceans will evaporate and be no more

How many times does God need to get things right???
He failed his Angels,he failed Adam & Eve,he cleansed the Earth of life except for a drunk and his family but not of Sin,Jesus couldn't convert all he came into contact with....


Latter Day Saints don't look kindly on homosexuals do they?

2 Nephi.

13:9 The show of their countenance doth witness against them, and doth declare their sin to be even as Sodom, and they cannot hide it. Wo unto their souls, for they have rewarded evil unto themselves!

And this,

2 Nephi.

26:19 And it shall come to pass, that those who have dwindled in unbelief shall be smitten by the hand of the Gentiles.

Is not something to look forward too!
And i wonder how you will act if you have to murder someone you love or care about!

reply to post by joey978


Welcome,Welcome.

I am new to this site and this topic is a good one to debate. I truly believe that religion especially the Catholics, have underminded even the greatest leaders of all time. Remind you, I am not a religion basher, I just believe all religions were started to gain some type of contrl over the masses. By threatening the masses with fire and brimstone for non conformance to whatever relgion it may be, it works well alongside a leader or dictator. They soon realized that together they had almost total control over the population. Thats why our forefathers seperated church and state but any person can clearly see that it sounds good oin paper but there really is no seperation. The church can interpet the bible to agree with anything they want you to believe, such as gay lesbian, drug addiction and a slew of others to justifie their stance.I myself was raised cath. but now only have a strong belief in a higher power , if you will. The existance of being or beings who are there in spirit and I believe ingrained in our deepest dna. For me I pray to one God and I really think we all as humans NEED something to believe in no matter what that may be. Soi I am sorry for the long missive but I wanted to throw it out there and see what others think. joey 978

It seems that the religions who have only one God figure are quite violent,they (meaning some,not all) use their faith as a weapon.

Yet Hinduism,Sikhism,Buddhism etc all seem to have a much more gentle and chilled outlook on life.

Apparently your knowledge on Buddhist violence,
and
Attacks by Hindus

is lacking.

Your life is YOUR choice, every day.
Bitterness at God and man leads only to more suffering, (mostly yours)

reply to post by Clearskies


No,i am well aware of these things,i just didn't explain myself properly.

By gentle and chilled out,i meant they haven't gone marching across the face of the earth forcing their beliefs on people.

Originally posted by jakyll
I see a problem with this thread....

As most users are American,i'll assume most of the replies are form Americans.
It seems to me that Christian faiths in the US are pulling away from the Old Testament.Am i right???

Over here in Britain,as in Europe,the OT is still just as important as the NT.And not just bits of it,all of it!!

It may not include the figure Jesus,but it includes God.And,if you believe in the Holy Trinity,then Jesus is God,so therefore the OT is important to Christians!

I read the OT as well as the NT. Because I cannot understand the NT without the OT, or the OT without the NT. They complete each other. You can't understand the whole Bible if you only chose the NT.

Originally posted by jakyll
There's also that time when the Angels visited Sodom and the locals supposedly wanted to get carnal with them,but this guy is like,"nah mate,you can't do that.but here,have my daughter and concubine and gang rape them til dawn."

lol. You have to understand the situation there. The whole men of Sodom, both young and old wanted to gang rape the guests. In this situation, mob rape. These are a crowd bent on lawless violence. You can see the whole psychological condition of the citizenry of Sodom. They were utterly sex crazed violent rapists.

They kept violently pressuring and pestering Lot. He was under a lot of pressure as he was trying to protect his guests and out of desperation and at the spur of the moment he offered his daughters. It's really a wrong decision, but I don't think it was ever his intention at all. We all make mistakes.

He was just under a lot of stress and pressure being surrounded by hundreds if not thousands of sex maniacs. It's more like facing a whole crowd in a football match cheering for Inter Millan trying to make a score, lol. Imagine how pressurizing that is and imagine if that ever happened, the condition of the guest if they were human, these rapists will take turns on them and that will probably kill them. However, that actually did not happen. The angels blinded the crowd. That's 1-0.


Genesis 19

4 Before they had gone to bed,all the men from every part of the city of Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof." 9 "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door. 10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.

I've often wondered about the incest thing, it always gets overlooked doesn't it. You can't fall in love with someone of the same sex, but you can have sex with your own children, and sisters can have sex with brothers!??!

In the past, yes. Otherwise how could Adam and Eve's children could ever populate the whole world, if marriage between bro and sis were forbidden?
However, when men began to expand in population, marriages between bro and sis and close cousins were no more supported because they found out later that a high occurrence of abnormal babies were being born between these unions. It thus became a social taboo and a crime. It was more healthier and culturally acceptable onwards to marry persons further down the branch laterally. Otherwise, if this was not prevented, mankind will become extinct.

Logically, all of us in this world are brothers and sisters having only one parent that is Adam and Eve. We actually don't call it as incest, do we?

The incest law was made in order to protect mankind. It's more on practical survival rather than taboo anymore.

reply to post by Clearskies
I agree with you,I see you are not lacking in religious knowledge. We all are going to do and to believe in whatever it is we do or believe in. In the end I guess it all does not matter much except to each one of us as individuals. We could debate this back and forth as the world has for the last 10 thousand years and we would stll end up fitghting and debating the same questions and battles. Many people have died in the name of religion. I seek spirituality not religion. goodnight joey

Damn. I thought this was going to be about "the abomination that causes desolation".

reply to post by amitheone

You have to understand the situation there. The whole men of Sodom, both young and old wanted to gang rape the guests. In this situation, mob rape. These are a crowd bent on lawless violence. You can see the whole psychological condition of the citizenry of Sodom. They were utterly sex crazed violent rapists.

I am surprised,though i shouldn't be,that they still teach such utter rubbish!
If the city was inhabited by such people why would Lot and his family be living there?

The people of Sodom were guilty of many things;greed,impeity etc,the worst was not showing hospitality to strangers;a great sin in the eyes of the Hebrews.



The line in KJV and the Hebrew Bible reads,

5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us,so that we may know them.

There is nothing sexual there,nothing homosexual.Its more likely that they wanted to kill these strangers as they were intolerant of such people and in their anger at being denied they gang raped the daughters and concubine of Lot,as he had so kindly offered them to the mob so he could keep the laws of hospitality!
(and if these men were gay,why would they have sex with women? would make more sence if Lot offered his sons to them.)

The line in NIV,the New American Standard Bible and the New KJV read as,

NIV:

They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

NASB:

Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them."

NKJV:

And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.”

So why a change of words?
It was preached during the Medieval period by some idiot that "to know someone" means to know them sexually.But,as the link below shows,to take that meaning leads to a whole buch of ridiculous assumptions!

reply to post by C.C.Benjamin

Damn. I thought this was going to be about "the abomination that causes desolation".

Isn't that meant to refer to the Anti-Christ?
If so,the Devil is hardly a forgotten abomination

reply to post by jakyll


you say how many times does G-D need to make things right-failed adam and eve kills all except noah and his family and Messiah couldnt save all He met.------------this earth has been in existence for billions of years.there are anywhere from 29-31 different strata on the planet with different life forms in them.some scientists that believe in G-D believe the earth has been used as a test bed for creating different lifeforms and when the time came that G-D wanted to create other creatures instead--------They cleansed the earth and started over again------not because the previous experiments were failures but just because G-D likes to create different creatures.from what i think i see from reading the scriptures the G-D beings created the angels before creating the universe but the angels were not robots they like us when first created had free moral agency.one of those higher ranking angels decided he didnt like just being a servant and decided to try and mutiny against the Creators after convincing 1/3 of the rest of the angels to follow him.he/they started the first star wars and lost that battle after wrecking a fair portion of space.this rebellion set their character in them and they now await a future judgement.adam and eve in like manner decided to go against G-Ds teaching----they were not made robots---had free moral agency and decided to disobey their Creator Who had warned them long in advance maybe 120 years before that the day they ate of the forbidden tree they would die.they committed suicide you might as well say when they could have lived forever if they just listend.genesis 6:6 Yahvah G-D was sorry He made man when seeing the depths of depravity that pre-flood men of their own free will decided to sink to so He put them out of their misery at that time and spared noah and his family------those that were drowned (when G-D caused the tectonic plates to pull apart and subside under the waters of the planet )will be resurrected to life again and be given the opportunity to smarten up at the end of a 1000 years of Messiahs reign on the earth.Yashas physical life here was not for the purpose of saving people------it was for to experience this humanity in the flesh and overcome the tempations to sin and die as a sacrifice to take away /bare upon Himself the sins of the world from adam and eve on down thru so that all of us that deserve to die for our sins have Him as a substitute in our place and He also came to start His church/assembly whose job was to teach the gospel=good news of the coming kingdom of G-D on earth.He didnt fail one little bit---------its us that have the problem trying to get smart enough to get with G-Ds program so we dont have to die forever.

reply to post by yahn goodey

you say how many times does G-D need to make things right-failed adam and eve kills all except noah and his family and Messiah couldnt save all He met.------------this earth has been in existence for billions of years.there are anywhere from 29-31 different strata on the planet with different life forms in them.some scientists that believe in G-D believe the earth has been used as a test bed for creating different lifeforms and when the time came that G-D wanted to create other creatures instead--------They cleansed the earth and started over again------not because the previous experiments were failures but just because G-D likes to create different creatures.

Oooh,something i agree with
Well,kinda.I don't know the source behind the destroying and the creating.
God? Or just the nature of the Universe?

I've always believed that there has been many cycles of human existance over millions of years.

Originally posted by jakyll
reply to post by amitheone

So why a change of words?
It was preached during the Medieval period by some idiot that "to know someone" means to know them sexually.But,as the link below shows,to take that meaning leads to a whole buch of ridiculous assumptions!

lol. You have to understand the whole context of the whole chapter there. It simply denotes "sex".

The link you have showed me with regards to the word, "know", are all a product of misunderstood context and a game of mischievous word twister. For example, I use the bat to play baseball. By utilizing the game of word twister, It can be understood as, "I use the bat (a mammal with wings) to play baseball." Or, "I use the bat to play (to have sex with) baseball."

The whole thing becomes absurd as it is totally out of context and changed the whole meaning of the intended original message. lol.

Read the whole passage first rather than pick similar words or phrases and compare it with another chapter of a totally different context and conclude they have the same meaning.

One can play this game as well and pick two books in a library and chose similar words or phrases and conclude that they have the same meaning. These 2 books have totally different context like computers and the animal kingdom. The similar word I picked is "mouse". Both books have this word. Do they have the same meaning?

This is used by Zeitgeist where they conclude, the "Son of God" is the same as the "sun of god". Again, a game of twister. The sun is a spherical ball of plasma which emits enormous amount of energy. The word "Son" is a relationship thing. This is so hilarious and so juvenile. lol.

"We may know them", "have sex with them", "know them CARNALLY", "have relations with them", are key phrases to denote "sex" and "intercourse". It is it's equivalent meaning and it doesn't change the meaning at all but worded differently according to their time. The KJV was written in Old English by the way and the style is “medievalish.” We are not supposed to read it using our modern English. It needs to be translated further so that our modern readers could comprehend it, and thus we have several modern translations for our choosing. Otherwise, why do they ever bother translating KJV if it's already in English? That will be so redundant already, right?

If you were brought back in medieval time, and you use our modern English to communicate, I don't think the English you are accustomed with are compatible with their English. They would speak to you in English, however, you would get the wrong understanding and they wouldn't understand you at all. Here's the situation if you were in a medieval bar, one would come up to you and say, "May I know you?" and you say, "Sure, why not". lol!!

It's a good practice that you have brought up many translations so that one is able to understand and compare the verses more thoroughly. There's no bias there. As the Bible has instructed us, "By the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses", the truth will be established." So, by using different "mouths" or "translations" we can better assess the truthfulness of the translations.


[edit on 12-11-2007 by amitheone]

reply to post by amitheone

The whole thing becomes absurd as it is totally out of context and changed the whole meaning of the intended original message. lol.

That was the point of the link!


And you seem to be forgetting,or ignoring,one important thing.Judaism.
In that faith,where the story originaly comes from,Sodom is not seen as a warning story against homosexuality.That interpretation comes intirely from the Catholic Church.

Sodom in Judaism represents the archetypal cruel and unjust society that refuses to share its wealth and consequently abuses outsiders to keep them away.

Though homosexual acts were included among the 613 Mitzvah or Commandments,the people of Sodom were seen as guilty of many other no less significant sins.Rabbinic writings affirm that the Sodomites also committed economic crimes, blasphemy and bloodshed.One of the worst was to give money or even gold ingots to beggars, but to inscribe their names on them, and then subsequently refuse to sell them food.The unfortunate stranger would end up starving and after his death,the people who gave him the money would reclaim it.

A rabbinic tradition, described in the Mishnah, postulates that the sin of Sodom was related to property: Sodomites believed that "what is mine is mine, and what is yours is yours" (Abot), which is interpreted as a lack of compassion. Another rabbinic tradition is that these two wealthy cities treated visitors in a sadistic fashion. One major crime done to strangers was almost identical to that of Procrustes in Greek mythology. This would be the story of the "bed" that guests to Sodom were forced to sleep in: if they were too short they were stretched to fit it, and if they were too tall, they were cut up.

Josephus,a Roman-Jewish historian wrote in his book,Jewish Antiquities....

1:194-195.Now,about this time the Sodomites,overwhelmingly proud of their numbers and the extent of their wealth,showed themselves insolent to men and impious to the divinity,insomuch that they no more remembered the benefits that they had received from him,hated foreigners and avoided any contact with others.Indignant at this conduct,God accordingly resolved to chastise them for their arrogance,and not only to uproot their city,but to blast their land so completely that it should yield neither plant nor fruit whatsoever from that time forward.

So what started this fear agaisnt homosexuality?
I say fear because many generations have seen it as a form of corruption,there was even a time when people believed you could catch it!!
Though if you look hard enough,you will see that many societies in the past accepted it just as long as it was behind closed doors and not in a place that they would have to deal with it.Out of sight Out of mind!


I've always had this feeling that the Bible,when talking about same sex relations leans towards the physical aspect of homosexuality,the act of sex itself.The same in the history of the Catholic Church.The emotional side of it is ignored.Sometimes i think thats because if they accept that 2 men and 2 women can Love each other,then they would have to say that Love can be wrong.And how can Love be wrong?

(and i mean the Love between 2 people,not people who claim to love the children or animals they abuse.etc.)