Bilbe Contradictions - god real, not real

Hello all, as you can see I am new to the board. I have been doing research about religion and more importantly God, and his existance. I apologize because I know many of you are sick of this topic on here. I have been christian, have been agnostic, and right now I'm still exploring. Don't want to get to personal, but it seems that alot of you have good insight into your beliefs so I would like to try this a different way. My questions are for the theist, or belivers.... I'm not on here looking for the answers to my problems, but just other opinions. isn't that great about the internet. I'd like to eventually in this thread get ideas from all atheist and agnostic alike. Like I was saying, personally I stuggled with the GOD thing for a while, I wasn't exactly brought up in a SOLID religious foundation, but a loose catholic upbringing(no offense but catholics, well i definately not one now), which has led me back and forth with organized religion.
ANWAYZ

I have some questions that I can't figure out about the bible and GOD:

With the idea of Free will:
What about people born in lands from the beginning of human history to the present who have never heard or seen of God as you know. What will be their fate? Will they by default go to heaven? Will they be reincarnated until they hear the word of GOD?
If they make it to heaven by default how could they have possibly made a choice provided by their free will to choose or deny god?
How could that be just or fair to me, if I had the knowledge they do not have, but they were admited into heaven?
Sure you can't be penalized for what you don't know, but If I have to live this life and go through its trials, why should I be in heaven with some one who got a freebie? How is that just?

If we all have free will to believe in God or not, and we are confronted with making a choice, why should we believe in the God of the bible?
Why not the God of the Torah, or the Koran? (they maybe the same God, but you know what I mean). Surely God new there would be various Religions and "great deceptions". If I am to make a clear choice, it must be an educational one, and a well studied one. Why am I to believe that christians have it right? To further this, how can it be that there are countless denominations of christianity itself, which at many times belief VERY different things (trust, I have seen the distinctions 1st hand). Aside from believing jesus in you heart, and having faith... alot of times everything else branches off like an 500 year old oak tree. God said he is not the author of confusion, but what good is allowed by people being so confused, dispersed into several religions and denominations and most times these people truly believe they are doing right and the other wrong.
Is one right and the others wrong? Has the devil deceived 99% of the worlds faithful? why is it that a person born in what pakistan who grows up around islam, and the only thing he ever hears of jesus, is through contectual islamic history, how should he be to blame for not accepting christ? Doesn't it start to sound like it will be more nonbelievers in heaven than faithful believers?

The origin of evil. If God created angels and everything was perfect, and all of a sudden Lucifer decided to be like God and spur sin? It is then inevitable that had it not been lucifer, it would have been some other angel. Our knowledge or the story of this is trulyl limited, but there obviously was a time in heaven before sin, where all the angels lived peacefully and without sin, why then even allow sin to come into being? Were angels at first all like robots who loved GOd, and then wham lucifer started wilding out? Luvifer and 1/3 of the angels left heaven. But the remaining 2/3 of the angels remained unscaved. Never having to confront sin again, since lucifer the origin of sin was cast out. Why is the angels in heaven avoid this sin, but sin is seemingly unique to humans and "of the flesh" so on...?


These are just a few of many questions. Consider my self some one who has not thrown the posiblity of God out the door, but cannot reconcile many principles in the bible that don't seem to add up?
I hope I did not put you to sleep, please give me some feedback

[edit on 9-11-2007 by quixotical]

[edit on 9-11-2007 by quixotical]

Hey man, I know you're asking for a believer's standpoint but I always feel too compelled to reply to postings like these.

First off many devout Christians will tell you that the Bible was written a very long time ago in a very different time. Any truly intelligent and free-thinking individual will realize that doctrines that held true 2000 years ago might not do so today. This is a book that has an 'old' and 'new testiment' - They updated it in other words - Maybe it's time a few of the more devout Christians of the world pool together and try again (And no, the NIV does not count, translating old english loosly is not a rewrite).

Christianity exists soley because too many children are still being raised by Christians. Religion exists soley because too many children are still being raised by religious parents. If you take a new born child to an abandoned, desolate island with no communication to any outside source and raise them, answering questions like 'where do we come from' with answers like 'no one really KNOWS, but there are many scientific theories we'll cover when you're older' and 'what happens when we die' with 'when the last electrical pulse soars through your brain, your life is over, you get one shot, make the most of it' and even 'are human beings the only intelligent life form there is' with 'well, again, no one really knows, but with all of the stars in all of the galaxies just that we can see, the odds are overwhelming that there should be life out there somewhere,' I can asure you that this child would grow into an intelligent individual (given of course there is no mental retardation or birth defects and what not) who would slip right into society with no issues and have no qualms with anyone's views.

All the fighting amongst religions, even within religions (the individual sects you spoke of) is a huge indicator of how irrelivent religions really are.

Religions were invented by human beings, partly for faith, something to look forward to, something to explain why we all die, why we suffer, etc. They were also invented to teach morals and virtue. Many of these things either aren't required or aren't being done anymore. For one thing, parenting has come a long way, they even have classes for it now We don't need to say 'now Johny, God sees you when you beat off' we know that Johny beating off might just keep him from getting little Suzy knocked up at the ripe young age of 16. Religion is a way to instill fear in your children and make them believe that if they go against the grain, they'll go to a place of eternal pain, fear, and anguish. That's crap. I let my children go to church with their grandmother every week, this is so when they are old enough to think for themselves and make their own choices, no one can say I depraved them. I seldomly went to church as a child, but I know not to murder, rape, steal, pillage or plunder. Frankly, I consider myself a far more moral man than most Christians I know.

Just food for thought.

I understand your questions. Most believers will, because at one time or another we have all been there. I spent many years asking the same kinds of questions. On the question of free will, yes we have free will. God does not want people like robots, as our creator he wants us to choose that which is right and just. But ultimately it is up to us to do so. The bible tells us that he knew us before we were formed in the womb. And that he knows our hearts. Personally I believe that free will is one of the greatest gifts that God has given us. There are many people from different walks of life that have never heard of Jesus or God or the bible. Most christians including myself believe that everyone has a chance to choose, if those people are not introduced to God in this lifetime then they will be given that chance after they die. God is not going to condemn anyone for simply never hearing the word of God. As for young children and those that are mentally challenged, they cannot reach the age of accountability so they will probably be given a free pass so to speak. We all must remember that God is higher than we are, his ways our higher than ours. Imagine if you will if you could go back in time and talk to people that are not as advanced as you are. You would have a difficult time trying to explain things to them in ways that they could understand. And that would not be your fault but rather just that they are not able to comprehend what you are saying to them. I believe much of the bible is this way. Early on in my life I had a very hard time understanding much of what I read, but as time goes on and I become more experienced much more of it makes sense to me. Unfortunately not all of it does however.

welcome. I got critized a bit much for being a believer in god. On my thread. that one thread I created caused much discussions about our God and I think that was a good thing. but I will get to the point. there are some questions you want answered.


Basically, God is real. He sits out there at the end of the universe. he lives in a star, or what appears to be a hole at the end of the universe. but it could be a gas star. he's there with his angels, if that's what you want to call them. on the devil and evil things. he did not create the devil particularty, he sent out the creation energy and the energy itself, creates other things as it needs them. the devil is an earth creature, only created for us and he lives on hell, the center of the earth. he keeps tracks on our souls and as the body leaves, we loose our human form. Some of us when we die, do not have the life force points to escape the earths atmosphere and are sucked into the center of the earth and become stuck on the core. but there is hope, when you do good things in life, your soul becomes stronger and that will help you when you die, as you will easily leave the earth by the help of the angels. if you do bad things, when you die, your soul will have no streght and will be pulled to the center of the earth. slowly but surely you will be stuck there for eternity.


in order for god to come to earth and his angels to walk on earth they need a human form. it's that simple. hope this helps.

I had some of these same questions these are the answers I came up with.

Originally posted by quixotical
With the idea of Free will:
What about people born in lands from the beginning of human history to the present who have never heard or seen of God as you know. What will be their fate? Will they by default go to heaven? Will they be reincarnated until they hear the word of GOD?

I am a follower of Jesus, I know how he saved me, and I believe he will save far more people then most know. I don't know how, and don't need to. Maybe he comes to them in the last second of life. Maybe he is with them their entire life in spirit, putting love in their heart, and at the last second before they die introduces himself. I don't know. I only know what he did for me, and if he saved me, I am sure he will find a way to save some of those others. Or so I like to believe.

If they make it to heaven by default how could they have possibly made a choice provided by their free will to choose or deny god?

You may be touching on purgatory. Although I do not see it the way Roman Catholics do. Imagine an in between where people chosen by God have the opportunity to swirl down in deeper and deeper darkness, or look up and grab the rope that is the savior Jesus Christ. I have lots of opinions on this place, it seems to be the purification as spoken of, but I do not see the mechanism the same as the Catholic Church. And you did want many opinions.

How could that be just or fair to me, if I had the knowledge they do not have, but they were admitted into heaven? Sure you can't be penalized for what you don't know, but If I have to live this life and go through its trials, why should I be in heaven with some one who got a freebie? How is that just?

You are not the first to ask this. It is specifically addressed in the bible with the parable of the workers at the vineyard
"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.
2"When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard.

3"And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place;

4and to those he said, 'You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.' And so they went.

5"Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did the same thing.

6"And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, 'Why have you been standing here idle all day long?'

7"They said to him, 'Because no one hired us.' He said to them, 'You go into the vineyard too.'

8"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.'

9"When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius.

10"When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius.

11"When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner,

12saying, 'These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.'

13"But he answered and said to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius?

14'Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.

15'Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your (G)eye envious because I am generous?'

16"So the last shall be first, and the first last."


It is faith not works. And the gift of salvation is given by him, and all recieve equally his gift, we work not for salvation, but to please one who loves us so much.

If I am to make a clear choice, it must be an educational one, and a well studied one. Why am I to believe that Christians have it right?

Well I have two answers, First he showed me who he was, and that is all I need, I don't need to judge others, I am sure Jesus will take care of them, he took care of me after all.

And this, If you really get to chose a God, I figure it better be the God who teaches Love, and only Love. Jesus Christ of the new testament. If God was Neutral I would show him he can be better then average by worshiping Love, if he was evil, well we would all be screwed anyway. So logically the only God who would take care of you and you really would want to be around is the one of perfect love, for me that is my Jesus Christ. Now you may say, but what about when Christians say this or that. Well that is not how I chose to worship except when I fail.

No Christian has it right, we are all flawed. Don't worship who they tell you Jesus is, pray and make that connection yourself, however they can tell you of there experiences, and can even teach from there lessons, but run it all through the heart and discernment Jesus gave you.

To further this, how can it be that there are countless denominations of Christianity itself,

As I said, we are all flawed, and read this next bit, it can illuminate that some of sin is what you chose it to be. If you wash your head to give glory to God he loves it. If you hop on one foot, he loves it. What ever you do, do it with thanks and glory to God. So now you can where a funny hat, have a necklace, be quiet in church or loud and dance. He doesn't need us to do anything, but he loves when we return his love.



40Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "(AQ)We are not blind too, are we?"

41Jesus said to them, "(AR)If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, '(AS)We see,' your sin remains.

Paul also speaks about this

1Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
2One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.

3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.

4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

What ever you need to be, or do, he will guide you, if you chose to help another he will give you what you need, or if you just chose to sing on Sunday great, he loves us all, and tries to help us be closer to what he wants from us. Love.

It is almost as if actions are sins when a person believes them to be sins. Adam and eve being naked was not a sin, yet when they realized it was a sin it became one. Almost as if the shame or guilt is what hides us from God. However this is dangerous doctrine and easily gets spun into there is no good or evil. But remember we must also obey the law of "love your God, love your neighbor". You might say if we hurt others and are sociopath, we do not really sin. This is not true, because even a sociopath has some guilt and that guilt leaves him where God can't reach him which is why he sent his son. We also have to remember we should obey God, or live with him in us. It is clear that when we do good we please God. And he has written on our hearts what is good so we know what we should do. But in many things, it is just how you chose to worship him, as long as it is with love. If it is not of love, well then you are misguided, as we all are at times, and I believe he will lead you back, or use where ever you are based on your faith and willingness to serve.

So if you know God loves you weather you chose to wear a hat or not, then it is not a sin, yet don't wear a hat and get people who do think it is a sin to follow you and then sin. For this reason many things that under the law of Love are allowed, we still should not do, because we would lead others who do not understand it is about love to sin because they believe it is about a set of rules.

and most times these people truly believe they are doing right and the other wrong.

Judgement, feeling of superiority, if you have faith, then you can speak of what is wrong for you, and then just say God Bless you to others, that is how he taught wasn't it. Turn the other check, teach by letting our light shine, not by telling others to turn theirs up. Besides we all screw up at times, that's why Jesus is hear to forgive us.

why is it that a person born in what Pakistan who grows up around islam, and the only thing he ever hears of Jesus, is through contectual islamic history, how should he be to blame for not accepting christ?

I believe Christ will find a way to reach him, maybe the last second, maybe in that transition part, I believe that when a Muslim shows love it pleases God to. However they do not have at there disposal the spiritual power of the holy spirit in the battle of light and dark, so I think it is tougher sometimes for them.


[edit on 11-11-2007 by Redge777]

Doesn't it start to sound like it will be more nonbelievers in heaven than faithful believers?

well there is two facets to this, first imagine all sin as little mini demons that inhabit a person when they recognize they have sinned or act not in the spirit of God, kindness, love, humbleness. Now in the old days, these spirits were gathered up, put into an animal, then that animal was killed so the sin would run into death and no longer be in the village. This is what Jesus did for all of us. Now all those little dart of evil we can ask Jesus to remove just by speaking with him.

And then their is also faith, imagine if in heaven while living in spirit, what you think effects what happens, now imagine you believe yourself hopelessly condemned. This allows the devil to bring you down to a worse and worse place as you do not believe you can be saved. So Jesus is there to teach that through faith, his saving grace, and his power, the devil can't touch us. Fear is a perfect example, imagine how bad it would be if you believed in fear and suddenly you start self creating this terrible after life existence. But at anytime you can say, no I have faith that nothing can harm me, therefore I am free, and through the protection of Jesus nothing bad can happen, your faith destroys the fear. And fear loses all power, now you are in the kingdom of heaven. It is the same with love and humility, and all the other things we still fail at many times.

Matthew 16:19"I will give you (AA)the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and (AB)whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

What would happen to the man who loosed fear on earth, and also binds his knowledge of the power of God, these things would also be a part of his final trial would they not? What would happen to the one who released fear into his earthy life, and bound love?

Compare this to the man who has complete faith, then he has bound fear, and released the power of God and Heaven on Earth, love and peace through Jesus Christ our savior.

why then even allow sin to come into being?

Free will.

Imagine if free will was not there, what if every angel was hard coded to Love God, then the love would not come from the angel, and not mean anything to God. And the angel would not exist, since he did not have the ability to chose anything. By giving free will, God did what he always did, he loved us enough to let us fail. If we could never make a choice, then we never truly existed. If angels could not chose then they could never treat God as the loving creator he is, a friend, a father and our God. The fall was mostly pride, it was them wanting what God had, but notice god did not have some tangible thing, he had the love of others, the worship of the angels, so Lucifer wanting this was not wanting something God was hording, he wanted something he did not have because he was not God, so he claimed to be God to try and get that. This is his first deception, for he is not God, and as many people have believed him, a third of the angels did. The whole time God was still God, and I believe even the fallen ones may be able to find the light of the love of God again, but that just might be me hoping, I honestly don't know.

God Bless

And one more thing, he will always be by your side, even when you doubt. He loves us more then we can comprehend.

[edit on 11-11-2007 by Redge777]

Originally posted by jedimiller
welcome. I got critized a bit much for being a believer in god. On my thread. that one thread I created caused much discussions about our God and I think that was a good thing. but I will get to the point. there are some questions you want answered.


Basically, God is real. He sits out there at the end of the universe. he lives in a star, or what appears to be a hole at the end of the universe. but it could be a gas star. he's there with his angels, if that's what you want to call them. on the devil and evil things. he did not create the devil particularty, he sent out the creation energy and the energy itself, creates other things as it needs them. the devil is an earth creature, only created for us and he lives on hell, the center of the earth. he keeps tracks on our souls and as the body leaves, we loose our human form. Some of us when we die, do not have the life force points to escape the earths atmosphere and are sucked into the center of the earth and become stuck on the core. but there is hope, when you do good things in life, your soul becomes stronger and that will help you when you die, as you will easily leave the earth by the help of the angels. if you do bad things, when you die, your soul will have no streght and will be pulled to the center of the earth. slowly but surely you will be stuck there for eternity.


in order for god to come to earth and his angels to walk on earth they need a human form. it's that simple. hope this helps.

i like your viewpoint. kinda like mine. except i dont think we goto heaven or hell when we die, because i kinda feel that we died, and were put here. our time on earth as humans is the time god uses to judge us...and we finally do die and leave our bodies, we are actually reborn as a greater being whether sent to a better place, or a worse place, we are better off than we are here..pretty much same # just a different day in a different place..except we live to live the next go round instead of like here, we just live to die...that aspect doesnt make sense to me and thats why i believe we die to live..somethin along those lines..hope it made sense, im tired and have been up for a while lol