Is the Roswell investigation a "cold case"?

Should we go ahead and write off the whole Roswell investigation as dead?

Numerous things have led me to this conclusion, however I am interested in the thoughts of many board members. The reason I am thinking to abandon the whole Roswell investigation is pretty obvious. Lack of evidence and the lack of ability to gather further evidence. I’ll expand as best my abilities to communicate and present time coherently allow.

Lack of evidence: This falls under several categories, however the focus can be on “eyewitness” evidence, which is rapidly evolving into second and third hand evidence (racing the undertaker) The reason I hesitate to take Roswell eyewitness evidence at face value, is the obvious lack of consistency and detail in most of it. It has been proven, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that a person’s observations regarding an event is strained with time and exposure, enough to become unusable. I am reminded of a guy who floated a radio control dirigible during evening hours with funny lights on it. We saw reports all sorts of “facts” about it, and most were grossly inaccurate. People reported all sorts of things (flaming fire in the sky, fast movements, gross size mis-estimates, etc.) The point was, people on here were mad at the guy for doing it, but in doing so he exposed the inability to take eyewitness reports regarding unusual phenomena at face value. It’s one thing to witness a car wreck, bank robbery, or other semi-normal, relatable human event and use that in court as evidence, but when the person’s observations regard something unusual, often their recollected memory fills in blanks that are not accurate in the least. So eyewitness evidence is a moot point when it comes to this, and many other UFO cases. Barring any physical evidence being presented, first, second and third hand testimony is darn near useless, especially when considered with the amount of time since the event happened.

Second, the lack of available new evidence. You have these fools claiming they have been investigating Roswell for 20+ years, lol. And they have not really added anything that helps resolve and or solve the investigation. You would figure that with the amount of eyes on this case, there would have been some really good leads that could be followed up. Idiots like Stanton and others claim to be carrying the water for the Roswell case, but they have not been able to shed any light on it, other than to continue the mystery and at the same time justify their investigations by continuously proclaiming that they are close, or event worse, claim they are following up fresh, solid leads.

Barring any solid, disclosed evidence from the government, I don’t see the point in looking into this further. Nothing will come of it, other than people yelling at each other on one of many retarded internet sites claiming they know, they believe, they don’t believe, etc. It’s become a religion for crying out loud. Attention could be better spent on forcing the government to disclose what they know. There is not a chance of getting them to slip up about Roswell, or reveal anything they don’t want us to know. If that were going to happen, it would have by now. Might it be best to stop all of this foolishness and aim further investigation at the government’s cover-up of these supposed events?

I have a lot more to say on the subject, but I want to see where this thread goes before typing out pages upon pages of thoughts concerning this whole thing.

Thoughts?


[edit on 8-11-2007 by IgnoreTheFacts]

reply to post by IgnoreTheFacts


A very good thread.

We saw reports all sorts of “facts” about it, and most were grossly inaccurate. People reported all sorts of things (flaming fire in the sky, fast movements, gross size mis-estimates, etc.) The point was, people on here were mad at the guy for doing it, but in doing so he exposed the inability to take eyewitness reports regarding unusual phenomena at face value.

I guess it really depends on the specific phenomenon. I read a report one time where the military actually tried to test the "average eyewitness" by dropping a few flares and then having three airplanes do manuevers around the flares. Sure enough, tons of people called in and reported strange events. By and large, much of their reporting was reliable. Some were quite inaccurate with the altitude of the sighting. Yet many used the words "flares" and "airplanes" in their descriptions which was totally accurate. Or they desribed it has "lights- some of which moved and some which didn't." Still surprisingly accurate.

However I think your best point was in the amount of time which went by before someone blew the whistle. Witnesses who were interviewed were trying to recall an event which happened 30 some years ago. I.E.. if you witnessed the Roswell incident and were 38 years old, you were probably pushing 70 by the time any Roswell documentaries really came out and they starting tracking down eye-witnesses. Who knows? Those folks are probably just thrilled that they witnessed "something" that would become a sensational story. They are more than happy to talk about it and may distort the facts unintentionally.

I've always had my doubts about Roswell just because of the high altitude balloon (used to detect Russian nuclear activities) that was proven to be true... Generally I feel Roswell is just a bad case because it's old and has alot of baggage. I think cases like O'Hare are much better...was quite recent, multiple credible witnesses, silly explanations offered by the FAA, gov't silence, etc.

Originally posted by IgnoreTheFacts
Should we go ahead and write off the whole Roswell investigation as dead?

Barring any solid, disclosed evidence from the government, I don’t see the point in looking into this further...
Attention could be better spent on forcing the government to disclose what they know. There is not a chance of getting them to slip up about Roswell, or reveal anything they don’t want us to know. If that were going to happen, it would have by now. Might it be best to stop all of this foolishness and aim further investigation at the government’s cover-up of these supposed events?

[edit on 8-11-2007 by IgnoreTheFacts]

These are the points I see as relevant there, ITF. I agree. Roswell isn't ever going to be a "goldmine" event...ever. I don't think we'll ever know what really happened, it will take a big leap by the government that, frankly, I don't think they'll ever come clean on.

Good thread ITF. It needed to be addressed.
Cuhail

Been on a few Roswell threads where I am the villain.

Rushed so summary points here.

Roswell is pretty much an invention of Stanton Friedman.

Jesse Marcel caught up in the Flying Saucer flap in the press that month pressures novice commanding officer Blanchard into believing some silvery balloon wreckage might be some Russian spy device, a leftover of a Japanese program to drop bombs on the US, who knows. For a few days they story escalates until the stuff is shown to to be nothing but a crashed weather balloon.

30 years later Friedman digs up Marcel who is suddenly getting attention for something dopey he did in 1947. The story grows, Marcel responds to prompting, witnesses come out of the woodwork.

More a factor of folklore and how myths are created than a scientific investigation.


In 60 years no scientists, academics, medical experts ever had wind of what, if it were true, is the most significant scientific and cultural find in human history.

50 year old hobbyists sincerely believe there is a massive cover-up, technology has been retro-engineered, and all sorts or nonsense that they would dismiss as unbelievable in fiction.

More anon.


Mike

Originally posted by mmiichael50 year old hobbyists sincerely believe there is a massive cover-up, technology has been retro-engineered, and all sorts or nonsense that they would dismiss as unbelievable in fiction.

There absolutely was a cover up. If you can find any published reference to Roswell between 1948 and 1978, I'd like to see it. Even if it was just an innocuous crash of a secret balloon, why the complete silence?

Wouldn't it make sense, if you were debunking UFOs and people's willingness to contrive tall tales during those years, to use Roswell as the best possible case? The Roswell story vanished like a thief in the night for 30 years. That's a fact, regardless of what actually crashed there. Can you explain it?

Originally posted by mmiichael
In 60 years no scientists, academics, medical experts ever had wind of what, if it were true, is the most significant scientific and cultural find in human history.

Dr. Robert Sarbacher got wind of it in the 1950s. Gen Arthur Exon, the former CO of Wright Patterson AFB heard rumors about an alien spaceship recovery in NM long before 1978.

What about General Thomas Dubose ? He was a colonel and the secretary to the general above Roswell in the chain of command. He said he personally took a call from Washington DC from SAC General Clements McMullen to order a coverup and to forward the crashed material under high secrecy.

Originally posted by Schaden
Dr. Robert Sarbacher got wind of it in the 1950s. Gen Arthur Exon, the former CO of Wright Patterson AFB heard rumors about an alien spaceship recovery in NM long before 1978.

What about General Thomas Dubose ? He was a colonel and the secretary to the general above Roswell in the chain of command. He said he personally took a call from Washington DC from SAC General Clements McMullen to order a coverup and to forward the crashed material under high secrecy.

The officers who helped make Roswell disappear moved up in their careers afterward, no question about it. Roger Ramey is another. That may or may not be significant, but it is a fact and some of them have obviously made significant public statements after the resurrection of the story in the late 70s.

Blah, still a case not worth looking into. Age has caught up to many of the witnesses (despite the child who seems to have a supernatural memory that has not faded an ounce over the years...odd).

Lets not forget the gold miners that have twisted this story into profit for themselves and forever clouded the credibility of the whole damn thing.

Roswell had an immediate effect in the fabrication of the Aztec New Mexico case a couple years later where two conmen were swindling people to get the goods on the landed spacecraft. i think the story was 17 aliens, some still alive. They were tried and convicted.

Note between the Arnold sighting something he couldn't explain that started the ball rolling, was another phony sighting on Maury Island.

From all indications before Friedman et al created the mythology, Marcel acted like a fool in not recognizing something innocuous fell in Brazel's field. He was looking for some attention, and if this was of national security intherest, it would boost his career. Haut the base PR man milked it for all he could. A few days of Three Stooges style bumping heads until the weather balloon material was determined for what it was. Everyone slunk back into their normal routine and that was it.

People working on the base in the 50s said they never heard of anything unusual associated with it.

Tellingly, when Marcel was first interviewed by Friedman he couldn't even remember what year he was. He went on to amplify his involvement after leading questions pushing him to an ETH version, and started to make up stuff, even lying about his record, the ability to fly a plane, and so on.

A lot of the old guys interviewed, with much prompting and reading the literature coming out on Roswell, slid into writing themselves into the story and the pages of history.

This phenomenon happens a lot and has been tracked by psychologists. There are books on the subject. My favourite episode being the guy in the wheelchair in the theatre when Abraham Lincoln was assassinated. Days after he said he didn't see much just hearing the shot and seeing John Wilkes Booth running down the aisle. Reinterviewed decades later, he was up and grappling with Booth to prevent him from escaping.


Meanwhile Friedman, an out of work physicist for years, Randle, et al eke out a modest career writing about Roswell and doing the convention circuit. Children of old people tracked and interviewed come up with dubious deathbed confessions of seeing the aliens, etc. Lots of power of suggestion with people and the wish to make life more interesting, themselves more important, etc.

No shed of physical evidence, no substantial documentation though it exists extensively for hundreds of other UFO claims and military reports. The embarrassing photos of military men holding pieces of a weather balloon, which they later change the story to it being part of a cover-up.

No radical innovations in engineering, spacecraft design, medical knowledge. Thousands of professionals in various scientific fields, medical experts, academics, would have got wind of it. A community where people drift in and out of government contracts talks to each other. Even the old Colonel Philip Corso who co-authored a book with claims there were aliens etc, later on denounced the ghost writer who made up all that stuff for it's sensationalistic appeal.

There may be UFOs and extraterrestrials, but they weren't anywhere near Roswell New Mexico in 1947.


Mike

Originally posted by mmiichael
no substantial documentation though it exists extensively for hundreds of other UFO claims and military reports.

Yes, how interesting there is no record of a mogul balloon launch corresponding to when the military claimed they lost it.

The GAO attempted to investigate Roswell at the behest of a Congressman from NM and discovered all of the base's message traffic from the summer of 1947 had been improperly destroyed.

Your theory all these highly decorated officers are morons, and were just attention seeking blowhards, is ridiculous. You really think a General in the US Air Force would just make this stuff up for fame ? Ever served in the military ?

Roswell is a cold case due to the age of the case itself.

The situation is compromised by the scene being opened for so long, weather, investigations, and other events have happened at the site of the event for so long there is no point in continuing the investigation further.

The only way that we can get at the truth is dying off year after year and with them the truth.

Unless we get access to hanger 18 or wherever the evidence is being held there is no point in refreshing an investigation that has already been sorted through time and time again.

Originally posted by Schaden
Your theory all these highly decorated officers are morons, and were just attention seeking blowhards, is ridiculous. You really think a General in the US Air Force would just make this stuff up for fame ? Ever served in the military ?

Generals aren't morons, usually. I have great respect for the military. They do have some idiot with rank. Read history to find outrageous blunders by commanding officers, war and peace time. People make mistakes. Sometimes terrible ones that cost thousands of lives. No one's perfect.

More to the point, old retired officers given literature on the Great Roswell Adventure, and pumped with a series of escalating leading questions, start to blend what they've read, heard, been told about, with their failing memory.


Mike





[edit on 9-7-2009 by mmiichael]

Is it a cold case? I think that depends on which side of the fence you stand on. Either the side that knows what happened or the side that wants to know what happened. For one side is a closed case and for the other side it is certainly a cold case.

Discovery of an alien spacecraft and the bodies, alive or dead, of life forms from somewhere else in the universe, would be the most significant event in human history. Contact with another high intelligence.

It would affect all the technical sciences, philosophies, human sciences.

Over the period of half a century, hundred or likely thousands of specialists in every possibly related field would have been consulted. Any independent journalist cracking the story would have an immediate Pulitzer Prize and career for life. Anyone who changed an alien diaper once would be set for life.

So far not a peep.

I know, the Big Bad Government and military is covering it all up.

No one is any of the engineering, fuel system, medical fields have ever been aware of some massive breakthrough from an unknown source. No deathbed confessions.

So either the greatest event in human history is being hidden away in a hangar, or some military men got over anxious in the early Cold War and for a few days thought they'd found something of possible significance.


Mike

reply to post by mmiichael


I don't know why so many people think that recovering one crashed vehicle and a few dead bodies and then covering up the trace evidence of that up would be so difficult. It wouldn't be difficult at all.

Originally posted by fls13
reply to post by mmiichael

 

I don't know why so many people think that recovering one crashed vehicle and a few dead bodies and then covering up the trace evidence of that up would be so difficult. It wouldn't be difficult at all.

Doing that is not difficult.

Keeping it a secret for 60+ years would be possible for a secret military operation.

This involves the discovery of another intelligent life form that has traveled fantastic distances.

It potentially would revolutionize any number of technical and human sciences.

Experts in many fields and technicians would be called upon for investigation and analysis.

This would be the biggest story in human history.

No indication on any level of anything once the material is shipped off to an air force base.

No substantiated word of it from anyone.


Mike

Roswell has often been considered the start of the government UFO conspiracy theories. There was indeed a cover-up.

reply to post by mmiichael


I think if you look at the secrecy/compartmentalization protocols followed in the Manhattan Project you can begin to see how it's doable. Of course, when they actually used atomic weapons against Japan, that pretty well let the cat out of the bag.

Originally posted by mmiichael
No substantiated word of it from anyone.

There are an infinite amount of classified operations and technologies without "substantiated" proof. It's the whole point. Deniability. All of those people you're talking about that would have to know about it have signed extensive security agreements. I can't begin to imagine the security around the people working with intact alien vehicles and whole biological specimens etc.

You admit it's possible the govt could keep it a secret. You just have to use an open mind. Look at the UFOs. Their behavior and the govt's response to them. How the media treats the subject and ask yourself why it's all so highly classified ?

Look at the facts. "Flying saucers" are real and not imaginary. They are physical objects with aerospace performance unlike anything known or "substantiated" by the scientific establishment. There is plenty of documentation in FOIA documents. Talk to the Federal FAA Accident investigator John Callahan re: JAL 1628. The CIA paid everyone a visit. The govt plays it off while maintaining fanatic secrecy around the topic of UFOs.

This seems to be a taped radio broadcast from back in the 50s where Robert Carr discusses in some detail the claimed crash at Aztec, NM. It makes for an interesting listen.



[edit on 11-7-2009 by fls13]