The Catholic religion blatantly defies God and his teachings. leads its members to perdition...why?

Originally posted by defcon5
I think we are and are basically agreeing to the same things - within reason.

If we are, then I don’t understand how you can be defending them...

Like i said - within reason i agree. There are things i don't agree with in terms of what the church says. But that's me. Others agree whole heartedly with everything. The church has been for 2 thousand years; much of the teachings haven't changed but are changing.

Luk 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth...

I assume you are meaning the church. I don't think it is built on "sand" but what it is built on are the understandings of belief from many hundreds of years ago. This is changing but it won't be overnight.

Shouldn't we know a tree by its fruits?

I am not sure of your point here. I understand the meaning but IMO i don't believe the religion is corrupt, some people may be, yes, and some of the rules are man made.

Again though that is my point, there are four gospels so the message stays intact even though it may be skewed in one text or the other by embellishment or differing perspective. Each of the four men might remember different parts more vividly, but the plot will be clearly recalled by all four.

Let me take a step back here and touch on the Gospels that WERE included in the bible around 300-400AD source

All of the original copies of the four gospels in the Christian Scriptures have been lost. We must rely upon hand-written copies which are an unknown number of replications removed from the originals. The oldest known surviving part of a gospel dates from about 125 CE. It consists of about 50 lines from the Egerton gospel -- one of the 40 or so gospels that never made it into the official canon, and whose author is unknown. Another portion of an ancient manuscript, containing part of the Gospel of John, is also dated to about 125 CE. The remaining manuscripts date to the second half of the second century CE or later.

We have nothing to compare conflicting practices against.

I think what I don’t understand is why anyone would defend it, or want to be a part of it, knowing its history...

Yes, but you were making it out as though this was direct persecution of Catholics when in fact it was persecution of all Christian sects other then the state religion of Russian Orthodox.

If you do the research you will find all the different religions that were present and the numbers of each of those religions. In fact if you do a search you will see that other Christian religions hardly feature except for Catholicism so IMO it was mainly Catholicism.- it actually still doesn't feature greatly.
My point supported by:

According to a poll by the Russian Public Opinion Research Center, 63% of respondents considered themselves Russian Orthodox, 6% of respondents considered themselves Muslim and less than 1% considered themselves either Buddhist, Catholic, Protestant or Jewish. Another 12% said they believe in God, but did not practice any religion, and 16% said they are non-believers.

No as a Catholic you have to do good works for the church (indulgences) in order to lessen your time in Purgatory.

Wrong. I do it for myself not the church. Also, nothing in the bible says anything about purgatory and how you get there or not. It is simply a lesson by the apostles. One doesn't automatically go to purgatory so doing good doesn't necessarily reduce ones stay.

Purgatory is also not mentioned in the bible.

The dogma has unscriptural inherent faults which were placed there for political reason and allowed those abuses to occur. Again, “a house built on dirt cannot stand”, and “know a tree by its fruits”.

You are correct in terms of non-scriptural faults. Those were "man made" to service the leaders of the day. But again, the religion remains strong but is corrupted by man.

...Historicism sees these prophecies as having a direct application to Papal Rome—a system whose doctrines are a denial of the New Testament message of free salvation by grace through simple faith in Jesus Christ...

Once again humans look for the easiest way out. This "salvation by grace" was originally questioned by Jews. Ok so Jesus dies on the cross and we have faith in him and we are saved (short of it). But again we have a dilemma because then all our sins are forgiven and we are saved because we have faith? Wrong assumption!!

Let us do evil that good may come ...
Paul here reduced the arguments of Jewish objectors to an absurdity, as it might be paraphrased, "If your method of judging is correct, then why not do evil to procure the good that would come of it?"

Whose condemnation is just ...
was Paul's way of saying that any such notion was absolutely incorrect and sinful, and justly condemned by God.

Hope that made sense. So how can one just automatically expect to be saved by grace and sit back and do NO good?

Originally posted by No_Worries
As a confirmed non believer in religion .... but not god...
I must tho say that defcon5 asks many valid questions that have been answered poorly in my opinion..
i sense conspiracy on many levels ..

Glad you believe in God. Point for you.
Answered poorly in your opinion - i have to say that is a pattern many non religious conform to and the teachings are available to anyone to interpret as they choose. I am not here to teach and i keep it short. There is too much available to back my position but I would leave it for some, as yourself, to do further research. Too many sit back and expect the work to be done for them - it is a human thing I am not knocking you but i am not going to copy and paste the whole internet into my posts. I leave enough to be researched further.
Conspiracy? A conspiracy is:

# a secret agreement between two or more people to perform an unlawful act
# a plot to carry out some harmful or illegal act (especially a political plot)
# a group of conspirators banded together to achieve some harmful or illegal purpose

Which of those above do you refer to?

Thanks for your post.

I grew up a catholic, and i knew as a child that something wasn't right with the church. Its to zombie like at mass

Originally posted by quixotical
I grew up a catholic, and i knew as a child that something wasn't right with the church. Its to zombie like at mass

Well you can always select a church where you jump around the pews and bounce up and down and throw things around and play with snakes and stuff.

Cool that you have that option available to you hehehe

Personally, i like to go in, be quite, maybe sing a couple of songs, pray etc and leave rather than go off the wall.

Originally posted by shearder

Originally posted by quixotical
I grew up a catholic, and i knew as a child that something wasn't right with the church. Its to zombie like at mass

Well you can always select a church where you jump around the pews and bounce up and down and throw things around and play with snakes and stuff.

Cool that you have that option available to you hehehe

Personally, i like to go in, be quite, maybe sing a couple of songs, pray etc and leave rather than go off the wall.

Why go for the other extreme here? You go from mourning God in Catholic services which always seem like a wake, to the snake handler circus church. All Protestant churches arent the same, my church for example has great music, we have a large group of people whom God has blessed with great talent who share the duties of leading worship with no one bouncing off the walls.
The message comes straight from the Bible. Our pastor goes verse by verse through the books of the Bible on Sundays and Wednesday services are the same with the exception that during the service we can ask him questions as he goes through the message, it's more like Bible study atmosphere.

reply to post by Darkweave


Was that to me Darkweave? If it was I was being facetious lol. I was suggesting the other extreme as a joke

I have nothing against Christian churches playing music etc - some just go WAY overboard. Nothing wrong with a good old band playing some good music and people singing. I am just not into the jumping around bit that some have going on.

Hehe good deal, yeah, written early in the morning before work Just a little over sensative on that since the snake churches are the only ones that make the news as well as the ones led by corrupt leaders, or the ones whose pastors mess up big and have affairs on their wives, get caught with prostitutes, gay lovers etc... No doubt tho, be it Catholic or Protestant, christians are in the the crosshairs of the world, our actions are scrutinized and they love to see us stumble and fall in our walk with Christ. They hold these bad few up as examples of us all and virtually ignore the good in the process...

Originally posted by Darkweave
Hehe good deal, yeah, written early in the morning before work

Just a little over sensative

That's cool Dark! Not a problem. I have done the same in the past. I get hot under the colar and then i go off the deepend lol

No doubt tho, be it Catholic or Protestant, christians are in the the crosshairs of the world, our actions are scrutinized... They hold these bad few up as examples of us all and virtually ignore the good in the process...

For sure. Now i can say if our governments we so closely scrutinized i think we may be in a better position.

Take care.

reply to post by shearder


Thank you for you reply it is really appreciated.

I jumped into this thread with comment that was out of the blue, in the middle of discussion, without explaining myself. As a new contributor i hope not to make the same mistake again and your reply has given me much thought as to my relating prowess.

I was raised in a religious presbyterian household.
When i left my small country town due to the economic situation ,i was astounded to find so many differing view points on so many different subjects.And now with the internet's (sic) My discoveries have been greatly enhanced.

I have no organized "religion" yet i am religious (there is a difference) and will always be curious of those like yourself and defcon5. I profess no great knowledge of chapter and verse of whatever bible you guys quote and link, but i can assure you as a curious observer of this thread i have spent over 3 days and many hours getting to this point reading BOTH arguments links and responses.

I study many things and read extensively,perhaps not the same material as you and as i said i have learned a great deal reading this post and it's links, for as many who have found this site ,it is an invaluable tool for finding information that others have already sourced.
And generally from reputable sources.

So i have no need to search or have you paste stuff for me but thanks for the clarification.

I was attracted by the OP and it's premise that the (insert religious brand here.... for i wish it were all religious denominations) have, (possibly even inadvertently) conspired to hide the truth by means of a hierarchical system ,that to me is the antithesis of its essence.

Both sides have very strong points that i have read and learn't., and both are resolute in their approach.

But i can't get my mind around your book that you follow saying don't prey through anyone but through the so called Jesus

reply to post by No_Worries


Here are a few examples of why I pray only to God the father through Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 2:5-6

5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

I dont pray through anything else because he tells us he is listening,

1 Peter 3:12

12 For the eyes of the LORD are on the righteous, And His ears are open to their prayers

I also believe he also doesnt need an earpiece, or go-between because he is the creator of the Universe and his powers can surely cover our prayers as stated in Mathew 6:8

...For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

First you have to believe that what Jesus was teaching is true. That he is indeed of God and that his actions covered you in the blanket of salvation. It's a choice you are not forced to make, God has given you free will, read his teachings, if you can accept that he was sent from God, that his teachings were true, that he did indeed die on the cross to wipe away the sins of man, that he did rise from the dead and ascend to heaven and that he wants you to be there with him, you're almost there, just talk to him and tell him you believe this..

John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

If you believe in what HE did then believing in what HE said is easy

John 14:6

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Heres a place that makes it easy to read about God.

www.biblegateway.com...

Since this is going off topic, I wont post anymore along these lines.

I do think tho that back in the old days when the church was young it made a power grab and used salvation and the threat of Hell to keep the masses under their thumb and that the Catholic church today is finding it hard to change this in a way as not to lose credibility...



[edit on 15-11-2007 by Darkweave]

[edit on 15-11-2007 by Darkweave]

[edit on 15-11-2007 by Darkweave]

reply to post by No_Worries


Not a problem at all and we all make mistakes. I am not knocking you so don't knock yourself about not knowing something. We are human and are allowed to make mistakes and learn as i do all the time.

But i can't get my mind around your book that you follow saying don't prey through anyone but through the so called Jesus

I am not sure who you are addressing with that comment? I believe I can pray though Mary if i want. Intercession. I don't believe one can only pray through Jesus. Perhaps you were questioning someone else?

Thanks for your post and glad you have joined ATS.

Originally posted by quixotical
I grew up a catholic, and i knew as a child that something wasn't right with the church. Its to zombie like at mass

Well, I grew up Protestant, and I knew as a child that something wasn't right with the church. It was too much like a funeral every Sunday.

What does that prove??

BTW--Christians changed the Sabbath to Sunday because Jesus's Resurrection was on a Sunday. Have none of you "pagan-whoppers" ever read a Bible?!

And for anyone who doesn't celebrate Christmas--I pity you. It's one of the holiest days of the year. And I mean "Christian" holy, not one of these long dead pagan religions so many of you anti-Catholics seem so obsessed with.

Yes, "Santa" reworked a bit can spell "Satan". Does God only speak English, do you think? How would we rework it in, say, Spanish? I don't know about you, but I don't worship Santa. No Catholic does. Are you saying Protestants DO???

And don't forget that God spelled backwards is "dog".

Do you find some significance in that too??

reply to post by abovereproach


Yeah I have a brother in law who actually told us this year he and his wife will NOT be celebrating Christmas this year because he said it is a paganized holiday put in place by the Catholic church lol and he has forbidden any of from gettin his child Christmas presents as well (true story sadly) To me it doesnt matter on that score. I have no problem regardless of when it is to have a day set aside to honor the birth of Jesus or his resurrection. I think it was a good idea no matter who decided to start it. I really dont think Jesus would frown upon it.

Oh, Darkweave, that is just sad!

reply to post by Darkweave


That is sad considering it is actually celebrating St Nicholas who helped the needy etc. I know it is much to do with celebrating the birth of Jesus but i don't believe he was born that time of the year.

Falsehoods and lies are not limited to just the Catholic Religion. EVERY man-made religion has them. The Truth of the matter is that it's not religion that will save anyone. Accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and having a good heart condition will. Only Father and Christ know who has a good heart and who doesn't as they are the only one's with the ability to read hearts and pass judgment. Soon, judgment will be upon us. I urge everyone who reads this to visit the following website. Thankyou and God Bless.

The Kingdom Message

Originally posted by icybreeze

1. They ask their members to call the priest "Father"
2. Praying with repetetive words (rosary beads)
3. They teach that Mary had no other kids besides Jesus.
4.They tell you to pray to the Virgin Mary and through her you will reach God's ear.
5. Only the priest drinks from communion cup, everyone is supposed to.

are they the church of satan in disguise? mocking God by blatantly disobeying his words and teachings?
are they the "whore of babylon"?

1-we look to our priests as fathers of the church because in a real sense they marry the church upon ordination, we are a family.

2-repetitive prayer is conducive to a meditation, and leads to contemplation of deep spiritual truth.

3-the fact that mary may or may not have had other kids is irrelevant to the fact that she mothered Jesus, as a virgin, and produced a child endowed with god.

4-Mary will be close to Gods ear as tought by the church, but admission to heaven and the link to God is solely rooted in Jesus. He is our only road to salvation, as tought by the catholic church.

5-everyone is not suppose to drink from the cup out of respect to it. It, to catholics, is litterally God before them. traditionally only the priest would, because it would lessen the purity of it, as some do not prepare for recieving communion as they are instructed to by the church. Most dont because the prisets are modernists and dont care, 90%, and dont follow any real guidlines since vatican 2.

The church has been overrun with the devil. but some priests loyal to the tradition our faith was founded on remain. you can thank free masonry for that......amongst others

We as catholics follow the new testament, so any conflicts pertaining to Jesus or mary should be limited to that half of the bible.

We honor the old testament because Jesus told us to keep those teachings sacred, as he did not want to replace those teachings just to add to them with a new promise.

A new testament to the new promise of God. Plus he was a Jew and what led him to God also resides in the old testament. or the original bible.

In responce to your point about Mary having no other children i believe this;

They have to deny it.
Why?

Because if she did then Jesus would have a blood line.

Not as direct as the one mentioned in books such as the infamous Da Vinci Code,but a bloodline none the less.

Most Catholics cannot even imagine such a thing.

But the Bible clearly states that Mary did have more children,as the link below shows us.
www.bible.ca...



In answer to your point on repetitive prayer.

Matthew 6:7 states that it should not be used.
1 Kings 18:26/29 describes how fruitless such action is.

To me repetitive prayer is to say the same prayer several/many times in a row,and it doesn't matter whether it takes minutes or hours.

So,10 Hail Marys all in one go = repetitive prayer.




As for worshiping Mary,i don't agree to such a practise.
I believe that as the Mother of Jesus she is to be honored,but the Bible tells us to worship no one else but God.

When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus. He kept saying, over and over, “Mary, my mother!” Polish pilgrims placed a picture of Our Lady of Czestochowa on the throne where the Pope normally sat. People gathered around the picture. Vatican loudspeakers broadcasted the prayers of the rosary. When the Pope recovered, he gave Mary all the glory for saving his life, and he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to publicly thank her.

www.jesus-is-savior.com...


Such a thing puts her on the same level as her son.
Is it to difficult to understand that the way to God is through Jesus only??
www.remnantofgod.org...

ALL-HOLY - Mary, "the All-Holy," lived a perfectly sinless life (Catechism 411, 493).

Romans 3:23 says, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

Revelation 15:4 says, "Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? For thou only art holy."

Romans 3:10 says, "There is none righteous, no, not one."

NOTE: In contrast, Mary said that God is her Savior (Luke 1:47). If God was her Savior, then Mary was not sinless. Sinless people do not need a Savior.

CO-MEDIATOR - Mary is the co-mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions (Catechism 968-970, 2677).

There is only one mediator, and that is Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 says, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all men -- the testimony given in its proper time."

Hebrews 7:25 says, "Therefore He (Jesus) is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them."

Ephesians 3:12 says, "In Him and through faith in Him we may approach God with freedom and confidence."

NOTE: If Jesus is constantly interceding for us and He is able to save us "to the uttermost," then He doesn't need Mary's help. If we can approach God with "boldness" and "confidence" because of our faith in Jesus, then we don't need Mary's help either.

www.allaboutreligion.org...














[edit on 10-5-2008 by jakyll]