The Catholic religion blatantly defies God and his teachings. leads its members to perdition...why?

Well issues like the rosary beads I don't think are a big deal. I'm right now taking a world religions class for college and we're talking now about Christianity (easy A since I am one haha) and the teacher is Methodist and asked a Catholic he knew once about the whole thing with praying to Mary and the Saints etc and he basically said it's the same thing as to when protastants ask their family/friends to pray for them such as if they're having hard times or sickness etc. Do you ever ask your family/friends to pray for you? Well that's what they're doing. They're asking them to talk to God also. As to calling them "father" that makes me iffy but I don't know if that's against a teaching. People called Jesus rabbi and he said not to call him that. Even though the Catholics do some things that aren't in the Bible (like having priests and the Pope and seem more like Judiasm to me) I still think they are Christian's and follow the basic teachings of Jesus.

The whole roseary thing just reminds me of protestants with the cross and how many like to wear it etc. Do you know why some churches don't offer the cup? I find that interesting.

Originally posted by _Mr.X_
Good post icybreeze.


1- I don't know why they do this.

2- Have you ever prayed the rosary? I have. What some consider repetitive others would call remembrance. I stopped smoking marijuana and cigarettes because Mary helped me. Think of it this way, When you were growing up, you mother knew where you were right? Mary knows where Her Son is. Mary will take you to Him, if you want Her to. The rosary will put you "in touch" with Mary. Try it.

3- I have no answer to this. I know that man is fallible. Anything given could be twisted by the hand of men.

4- I found that to be true 100%

5- Some churches allow you to drink from the cup and some do not. I believe the franciscan order does not offer the communion cup but the church here where I go to does. I agree with you 100% that ALL RC churches must offer the cup.

The RCC ascribes John 14:6 to Mary. On that account alone, they deny Jesus His divine power of salvation. They are turning The Lord's Supper into vampirism, by proclaiming the wine actually becomes the blood of Christ; and cannibalism, by saying the bread (why they call it a "host" is another RCC mystery) becomes His actual flesh.

In case it was not mentioned yet, there is a great book by some Dave Hunt, "A Woman rides the Beast", in which the connection between Revelation 18 and the RCC/Vatican/Mother Mary is discussed in great detail.

Sadly, many of them will never hear a sermon on John 14:6; for that alone negates Mary's power of forgiving sins.

May the Lord bless and protect and guide you, Icybreeze.

reply to post by SouthernBelle82


Matthew 23:8-10

Originally posted by d60944
Saints are not mediators or divinities. Any more than I am mediator or divinity for the world when I pray for the world. They are part of our community, united with all Christians through the church which is the body of Christ, and as thus we all pray for each other.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
We are called to pray for each other. It says so in scripture. Asking Mary or the other saints in heaven to pray for us to God is NOT going against scripture. It's doing exactly what it says to do. See the scripture quotes below ...

I don’t care how you two attempt to sugarcoat this thing, the fact is that this:

Admirable St. Dymphna, how just you were to all whom you encountered, and how careful you were to give every person his due, and more than he might desire or expect. By your power with God please come to assist us to be just to all we meet, and even to be generous in giving everyone more than strict justice requires.
Amen.

Is not the same thing as me asking another living person to pray to God on my behalf in this manner:

Our Father, God almighty, maker of the heaven and the earth.
Please grant me the ability to be just to all we meet, and be generous in giving to everyone more then strict justice requires.
In Jesus Name we pray.
Amen.

In one instance you are praying along with another living person to God, in the other you are praying to a dead person. There is no way that this is justifiable in the scriptural sense, it is idolatry at best, and necromancy at the worst. It goes directly against this scripture:

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Fatherwhich art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Fatherwhich art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Again this is the direct order of Jesus Christ himself, that you are to only to begin a prayer with a reference to your heavenly Father. You are to end a prayer in the following manner:

Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

So we are to end our prayers in something to the effect of “In Jesus Christ’s name we pray.”
This is the scripturally demanded way to pray in accordance with what Jesus Christ himself taught man. Now if you feel its ok to go against that and pray to someone or something else, based on a man made churches twisting of other scriptural passages, that sounds neither wise nor safe to me.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
So are our angels. It stands to reason that they could, and would, offer their prayerful support.

You are also not supposed to pray to angles, there was a sect of Christianity that once did this and here was the letter to them on the subject:

Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshiping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Twice John attempts to fall at the feet of the Angel in Revelations and twice he is revocked by the angel for doing so:

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

In the Bible it says the false church will think to change the time and the law.
Let me remind everyone there is only one way to God and that is through the Christ. Mary is dead and waiting like all of us for His return.

The Catholic church changed the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.
How can they do that and still keep the true Sabbath holy?
God said make no idols or symbols nor bow down to them yet the Catholic church has a business in little saint statues and rosery beeds. They promote the cross as a way to show your faith. Let me ask if Jesus was hung by a rope would that replace the cross? So, they changed God's laws and the Sabbath. If you are in this church it is wise to get out of her my people, said God.
Look up the black pope and what his job is.
Jesus said not to pray using many words thinking you will be heard. The Lords prayer does not mention Mary or any saint.
There is no gentle way to tell you how evil this church really is so look it up!
Bottom line if you are praying to anyone but God in the name of Jesus you will not be heard!
These are bad times!
This paster Hagge on tv has released a book that he says in it that Jesus was not the son of God! He even says this message will change religion. It is the start of the falling away written in the Bible.
satan has been busy corrupting the churches but his best move was what he has done to the Catholic church.
All of our holidays are pagan'
Christmas and santa (move those letters around and you have satan) he knows if you have been good or bad bla bla he has little elves as helpers and he is in red.
Easter-the easter bunny ha
Halloween-dress up like something and trick or treat
None of these are holidays for God
All roads don't lead to God. The road is wide that leads to destruction and narrow is the way to everlasting life with your creator.
Show me where I am wrong on any of these points and tell me why Jesus turned over the money tables in His Father's house if it is okay to make money in the church with idols and beads.

I think the Church gave Mary a more prominent position because she is Jesus' mother.She was chosen by god to bear his son,so therefore she must be special.

Originally posted by jakyll
What about the Phoenician God's?
And the Carthagenian Gods?
And the Persian God's?
And the Etruscan Gods?

Also Akkadian gods.

I would place them equal with number 1) but rename ‘Babylonian gods’ to “early Middle Eastern gods” so they can be included in the chronology.

As geographical references, “the kingdoms” refer to the general religious beliefs of
1) Early Middle East
2) Egypt
3) ancient Israel
4) ancient Greece
5) ancient Rome
6) Rome/Vatican State: Holy Roman Church
7) Iraq
8) America


[edit on 9/11/2007 by Eddy_P]

reply to post by jondular

satan has been busy corrupting the churches but his best move was what he has done to the Catholic church.

I don't think Satan is to blame.
Its how faith works.
When faced with a different religion there are 3 choices.
1.)Totally obliterate all traces of it (them) so your belief becomes the only faith.
2.)You let the different faith(s) survive along side yours but keep them seperate.
3.)You assimilate.

Many churches have been built on sacred pagan sites,and many Holy days have been hijacked.The Church tried to obliterate pagan faiths by acting in such a way.
But the people they were converting assimilated this new faith into their old beliefs.That is why in places such as Irealnd and the British Isles you got Celtic Christianity.

The fact that the holidays you talk of still exist just shows you the strength of Paganism.Even little things proove this.A good example is people who,when trying to avert a jinx or bad luck,will say,"touch wood." A similar gesture was used by pagans to avert evil.

Now we get to the part of FF’s post were we always start spamming bible quotes with little or no explanation of what they are, what they mean, or what context they are to be taken in:

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Prayers for the dead: Tobit 12:12;2, maccabees 12:39-45; 1 Cor 15:29; 2 Timothy 1:16-18.

Tobit 12:12;2 I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented and read the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord; and I did the same thing when you used to bury the dead.

This quote is not only Apocryphal, but its also off topic because its about prayer for the dead, not prayer to the dead for intercession.

maccabees 12:39-45
Not even going to bother with this one as I cannot find it, it’s long, and its deuterocanonical.

1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Misquote, Means we are dead at baptism and are brought to life, eternal life, through being baptized. It has nothing to do with prayers to those who are literally dead.

2Ti 1:16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:
2Ti 1:17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me.
2Ti 1:18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic, its about God giving mercy to the family of Onesiphorus.

Maybe folks are now starting to see the way that the Catholic Church attempts to bend scripture to meet up with things that are expressly forbidden by Christ himself, That is what your showing us right here in your quotes. The manner in which you are twisting these to mean what you say they mean is very questionable… Alas I will soldier on…

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Dead who stand before God are aware of our situations: Matthew 22:20, Luke 15:10; 1 Cor 4:9; Hebrews 12:1.

Mat 22:20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?

This is about money…

Luk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

This is about angels, who obviously move among men and know what is happening…

1Co 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

Angles again, not the dead…

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Again this is nothing about the dead, it’s about folks who are very much alive.
Well so far I am really impressed by the justifying verses the Catholic Church uses in support of the idea of prayer to the dead. I have often heard that Catholics do not read their Bibles because their clergy does not feel they are qualified to interpret it, now after reading this supposed evidence I can see why. If this was my backup evidence I would not want my followers to read it either…But alas there is more…

Originally posted by FlyersFan
They intercede for us living: Jeremiah 15:1; 2 Maccabees 15:14; Rev 6:9-10.

Jer 15:1 Then said the LORD unto me, Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my mind could not be toward this people: cast them out of my sight, and let them go forth.

This is spoken by the lord, so Moses and Samuel stood before the Lord, not before the writer. You notice that its past tense, it does not say “Moses and Samuel are here in the throne room arguing for you on the behalf of your people right now”, in present tense. It can just as easily be referring to the fact that both Moses and Samuel had at one time stood up for those people, during their lives, but at the moment God was too upset with them to help them out. Again we see how Catholicism twists the simplest of verses to try and justify something that is expressly forbidden.

Maccabees 15:14
Still cannot find this book, and let me check…..
Checking…
Yep, its still deuterocanonical.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Ah…
Finally you found one with some merit, personally I would have opened with this one and skipped the rest.
Anyway, if you read it correctly, they are not interceding for the living as you state, what they are in fact doing is interceding on their own behalf to God. These are the folks who were put to death for teaching the Word. Many of them were in fact sent there by no one other then the Inquisition of the Roman Catholic Church itself for being heretics. They were considered heretics for doing nothing more then standing up against the kind of poor interpretation we are seeing here first hand. I guess on second thought, I would not have lead with that one either.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Intermediaries who present our prayers to God - Rev 5:8

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelations is a figurative book about a vision, its not intended to be taken "black and white" literally. Many take the Four creatures to be the 4 Gospels, and the 24 elders to be the remaining books of the New testament, not literal people. Even then it does not mean that those were prayers sent to the individual elders themselves anyway, it does not say that.

Originally posted by FlyersFan Appear on earth to interact with us - 1 Sam 28:12-15, Sirach 46:20, 2 Maccabees 15:13-16, Matthew 17:103 and 27:50-53, Rev 11:3

1Sa 28:12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
1Sa 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

Not sure how you are getting interaction with those who are dead from this verse. It’s a vision lending supernatural credibility of God to the speaker.

Sirach 46:20
Apocryphal, how about if we just stay inside the accepted Bible and out of the Apocrypha.

Maccabees 15:13-16
its still deuterocanonical/Apocryphal.

For the next one I assume you meant 10 not 103, at last count there was only 27 verses in Matthew, unless its some special Catholic version of the book.

Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elijah truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

The main problem with using this verse is that Elijah is not dead…
Elijah was one of the few people in the Bible who ascended into heaven, and he is occasionally sent back to deal with certain issues according to scripture. Many Futurists believe he will be one of the two witnesses in the tribulation period, though I don’t follow that line of thinking as I am a Historicist.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

AH…
Now this is an interesting one, and it is not in all the Gospels, it falls more under Christian tradition I do believe. There is a very specific story attached to this verse, which is not contained in the bible itself, and the story might have seeped in from there. If there were two very books I wish had been included in the Bible this story comes from one of them. The reason I wish those two books were in the bible is because they certainly seem to clarify some of the more interesting passages, such as this one, which are gleaned over in the bible. I could actually write a whole post on this verse all by itself.

You see these men, and according to tradition there were two of them, were actually risen from the dead for a short period to tell what happened when Christ descended into inferos (descendit ad inferos). Up to this point there was no one allowed to go into paradise because no one had been saved, so those who were dead were languishing wherever it was that Christ Descended into (a whole argument unto itself). Once there he freed them from those bonds, and some were allowed to raise again to tell that story before going on to paradise. The book that I was referring to is called the ‘Acts of Pontius Pilate”.

So again these men were not dead at the time of this occurring, they were risen from the dead.

FF's Quotes Part Two...

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Again this does not apply no matter which school of Eschatology that you follow. First off you should be following Preterism as a Catholic, not Futurism. According to Futurism there are supposed to be two witnesses who teach in the end times, one is pretty much accepted to be Elijah, who again was taken into heaven alive. The other is often said to be Enoch, another person assumed alive into heaven. According to my personal belief the “two witnesses” who preach in sackcloth are the Old and New Testament, which had to be taught in secret during both the time of the Roman Empire, and later among many who did not follow Catholicism during the Inquisition.

Originally posted by FlyersFan Guardian angels: Psalm 34-7, 91:11; Matthew 18:10; Acts 12:15; Hebrews 1:14.
Angels aware of our thoughts and needs: Luke 15:10, 1 Corinthians 4:9.
Angels participate with God - Rev 1:4
Angels are intermediaries- Tobit 12:12, 15; Rev 8:3-4

For brevity sake, this discussion is not about angels. Angels are designed to be one of Gods ways to interact with man, and that is not in dispute. Nowhere in the bible does it ever say that it is acceptable to worship, pray to, or pray in the name of any angel…

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Tobit 12:12, 15 "I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One; and when you buried the dead, i was likewise present with you .... I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One".

It does not say that we are to pray to angels, it simply says that they present prayers to God. Besides this, Tobit is still not a Canonical book of the Bible.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
2 Maccabees 15:13-14 - "Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. And Onias spoke saying, "This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God."

Non-Canonical…

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Revelation 1:4 - "Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne."

Tells me nothing other then there are either angels or saints in Gods throne room, says nothing about intercession on their behalf for mankind.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Revelation 5:8 - "The four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense which are the prayers of the saints".
Revelation 8:3-4 "And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God."

Again, Revelations is not to be taken literally, it is a figurative book and some these entities may well be descriptions of the books of the New Testament and the Four Gospels. Anyway, show me where those saints prayed to the angles first and not to God.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
(the dead speak to God about affairs of the living)
Revelation 6:9-10 "I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, 'O Soverign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?'"

It says they speak to God about their own affairs, not those of men on the earth.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Matthew 17:1-3 - "Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. And he was transigured before them and his face shown like the sun, and his garments became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him"

Again, Elijah is not dead, and we don’t know for sure about Moses. Moses went off from the people to die, and tradition is that God buried him, but we do not know if he was assumed or not. To my knowledge the tomb of Moses has never been found.

Besides this they were speaking with Christ, Christ is a special case as he was the Son of God and divine in nature. They did not come over and start speaking with the disciples as well, now did they?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Matthew 18:10 "see that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I tell you that in Heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in Heaven".

Yeah no kidding angels know about what goes on here, however it does not say that in this verse anyway.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Worshipping the One True God and asking those who already behold His face in Heaven to interceed for us is NOT worshipping a false God. And it doesn't even come close to necromancy.

Speaking to, or attempting to speak to the dead is necromancy, it is stated as such in the Bible. If it were not necromancy, then what exactly is necromancy? Oh, let me guess its ok to talk to this dead person, but not that one…

As a human you cannot judge who is in the presence of God and who is not, so by what right do you, or the Church make the decision what dead person is ok to speak with and which is not?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Seriously ... WHY is this thread still here at ATS? It's just another anti-Catholic thread that is really a scripture spitting contest. ALL of this has already been discussed at BTS many times.

Because it was about a conspiracy of the Catholic Church to hide certain information until you and your Catholic Apologists showed up to ruin things with your spamming of mostly off topic bible verses. But that is of course your agenda here, isn’t it.
Which is how you normally get these topics sent to BTS.



[edit on 11/9/2007 by defcon5]

Originally posted by EricD
I'm doing neither. I'm trying to establish basic premises. So, if Mary were alive you would have no problem asking her to pray for you?

Meaning you would have no problem with her interceding on your behalf if she were alive?

You are obviously not understanding what is meant by intercession in this sense then.
When you ask a living person to pray for you they are to pray to the Father through the Son. That is the proper way that it’s supposed to work. That is not intercession in the same way we are talking about it.

The type of intercession we are discussing is where you pray to someone that is already in the presence of God and that person pleads your case directly to God himself. That will not work through anyone other then Christ, because only through Christ are we justified to be in the presence of God to begin with, and that even includes folks that the RCC considers to be saints. Not a single one of those saints, as great as they might have been, is without sin, and they cannot stand before the throne of God without the Justification granted them through Christ himself. Even Mary was a human, and thus sinned, though the Catholic Church tries very hard to deify her to their followers.

Besides this fact there is a very fatal flaw in the Catholic version of prayer to the dead. That flaw is that it is not within the grasp of any man to know the heart of another man and thus know for a certainty that they are even in the presence of God to begin with. With this in mind, and considering that God considers talking with the dead to be an abomination, how do they know that whatever saint they are praying to is in fact in heaven with God? The true answer which they don’t want to admit is that they don’t.

This all goes back to the Old Roman Catholic Church which first came out of Pagan Rome. A lot of their followers did not want to give up on having multiple deities and especially female deities. This was a way to allow these folks to become Christians yet not feel so far from their old ways of worshiping other gods. Its not even a big secret that many of the statues that are now considered to be of Mary, are in fact old statues of deities such as Isis.
A prime example:
Black Madonna

The catholic church high jacked christianity a long time ago, when people think of the "evils" of christianity they will almost always use a catholic example. It is a sin to pray to Marry. You must ask the Father (God) in Jesus name, there is no other way. Priests, were originaly supposed to have familys and the line of priests would go from father to son. We could probably avoid a lot of bad things if we did that. The Pope is not the God. If my memory serves me correctly it was the catholics that were thinking of making Judas a saint. They also teach that there are no demons. And people if you are really going to believe in God and be a christian you have to believe in actual demons and an actual Satan. According to the bible everybody that fallows Christ is a saint. Other Christians don't make up stuff like Purgatory so they can make you pay your way into heaven. The catholic church also supressed the bible for like 500 years, so they could get away with murder. I could probably go on for another hour, but I wont. I am not trying to be mean to catholics, but I fear for my fellow man and how they are being led astray. There has also been many studys that show, that catholis are most likely to fall away not really believe or go to church because they always have and not because they are getting closer to God and a large majority of them don't believe in God. Most of my facts are based on studys done by the Barna group.

Originally posted by jakyll
Also,many early Christians beliveved that Jesus was just a man,not the actual Son of God,his divinity only appeared after the 1st Nicea Council.

The first council of Nicaea did deal with Arianism and the divinity of Christ, which is correct. However, the majority already considered Christ to be divine, hence the fact that Arianism was ousted.

Originally posted by jakyll
There is also the fact that their are many laws of God that are ignored today,such as only wearing certain types of clothing,and not eating shellfish.Many of them seem absurd or appear to have no relevence in the world today.But they are ther Laws of God! and billions of Christians happily ignore them,or don't even know about them!!

Most of those old laws were for the Jews to follow, not gentiles. They are not bad rules to follow for the most part, but they are not the same as something like the Ten Commandments. See the Jews were a special people to God and there was a specific covenant between God and them, if you look at a lot of those laws they expressly say “do this as a covenant between me and my people”, meaning specifically the Jews.

Originally posted by jakyll
The Roman Catholic Church and the Holy Roman Church are not one and the same.

If I said the Holy Roman Church, it was most likely a typo, sorry. I am sure I mean the Roman Catholic Church. The original Roman Church is the old church of which Peter was a bishop (Bishop of Rome), and was persecuted by the Roman Empire long before the existence of the Roman Catholic Church. Nero pretty well wiped that church out after the great fire.

reply to post by icybreeze


All your arguments are complete rubbish. I am a Catholic, but don't get me wrong, I am completely open to people who don't believe and all, I'm not going to force my religion on anybody, I'm not going to go berserk or flip out or put down any of you that don't believe or deny the Catholic faith, but at least use facts.

1. They ask their members to call the priest "Father"

And this is wrong why? Hindus pray to their deities by repeating words through meditation, singing a hymn in any church, the chorus is a group of repetitive words. And do you even know the words on the rosary, its not just words, its meditating and reflecting on the lessons and events that take place in the Gospels of the New Testament during the times of Christ's life.

2. Praying with repetetive words (rosary beads)

Your dad wants you to call him father too, and it's not a sin. The priest is simply called father because they are the leader of a particular church, the father of the parish who is supposed to lead his parishioners to God. We do not call him father as in, God the Father.

3. They teach that Mary had no other kids besides Jesus.

They don't teach this, if you read most bibles, it's said that when Mary conceived Christ, she was without man. It doesn't say she didn't know man after this, though it's a known fact that when Jesus was a young child St. Joseph, Mary's husband passed away. I don't see what's wrong with teaching that someone didn't have more than one kid anyways, I mean yeah in ancient times most people had a lot of kids, but not everybody.

4.They tell you to pray to the Virgin Mary and through her you will reach God's ear.

When we pray to Mary or any of the saints and angels, we are not worshiping them as the Creator or father of all, I'm tired of people saying that praying to saints and all is wrong. We are NOT worshiping them. We are asking them, who are before the throne of God to ask the Almighty God to listen to our prayers and bless us who are on Earth. We do not worship them as if they are idols in ancient Rome or Greece, to punish enemies or anything like that. Like I said, we are praying to them to please remember us when they pray to God in Heaven.

5. Only the priest drinks from communion cup, everyone is supposed to.

The priest is NOT the only one who drinks from the cup. He is simply the first person too. In all the Catholic Churches I have been to, usually there are three chalices with the sacred blood(the wine) in them. One has less than the other two and is the one the priest uses. Then the other two are filled with the blessed wine and used to pass to people. It's not the cup that matters it's the contents. This is the same for humans, it's not the body that matters, it's the soul(the wine) on the inside that matters.

You only provided ONE link and I don't see any evidence other than your own opinions. What things did you do in grade school that the bible said not to do? I'm sure you didn't kill anybody or steal or anything, so what did you do? You don't elaborate at all. All your questions are based on opinion alone, and I don't see any reason for you to bring these questions up at all. If you feel that the Church is wrong or something, than leave it alone. We are not like some cult threatening people or brainwashing people. Last time I checked, people aren't forced to go to Church, and those that do go on their own free will. Yes the Church has made mistakes in the past, but that's because man is not perfect.

[edit on 11/9/2007 by PennKen2009]

Originally posted by J.Smit

Sadly, many of them will never hear a sermon on John 14:6; for that alone negates Mary's power of forgiving sins.

Well, that may be because no Catholic believes that Mary has the power to forgive sins. : )


Eric

reply to post by Eddy_P


Pretty good post, and quite inline with my first post in this thread. I do have one or two things I would like to comment on your numbers though. It is nice to see another Historicist on the site though…

Yes. The fourth empire was a religiously run dominion, and was ruled by the title of Pope rather than Emperor.
(A subtle change from a Military Empire to a Religious State.)
After the Western Empire was dissolved in 476 AD, Rome itself fell in 546.
King Charlemagne gave his new kingdom the name Roman Empire in 800.
Otto the Great of Saxony also gave his kingdom the name Roman Empire in 962.
This lasted until 1806 and was renamed the Holy Roman Empire in the 12th century.

Thus from the fall of Rome in 546 (and after the third Roman Empire) until the end of the Holy Roman Empire in 1806 was 1,260 years. (1806 - 546 = 1260)

I have never seen an agreed upon date for the end of the Roman Empire, historians seem to argue this point back and fourth endlessly. There was a much more definitive event that occurred which really turned the Roman Empire over to the control of the church.

When Justinian I finished his Corpus Juris Civilis he not only officially set the state religion to Orthodox, but he also gave very broad powers to the Pontifex (later known as the Pope) in how to deal with heretical religions.

Numerous provisions serve to secure the status of Orthodox Christianity as the state religion of the empire, uniting Church and state, and making anyone who was not connected to the Christian church a non-citizen.
The very first law in the Codex requires all persons under the jurisdiction of the Empire to hold the holy Orthodox (Christian) faith. This was primarily aimed against heresies such as Arianism. This text later became the springboard for discussions of international law, especially the question of just what persons are under the jurisdiction of a given state or legal system. Other laws, while not aimed at pagan belief as such, forbid particular pagan practices. For example, it is provided that all persons present at a pagan sacrifice may be indicted as if for murder.

The principle of "Servitus Judaeorum" (Servitude of the Jews) established by the new laws determined the status of Jews throughout the Empire for hundreds of years ahead. The Jews were disadvantaged in a number of ways. The emperor became an arbiter in internal Jewish affairs and Jews could not testify against Christians and were disqualified from holding a public office. Jewish civil and religious rights were restricted: "they shall enjoy no honors". The use of the Hebrew language in worship was forbidden. Shema Yisrael, sometimes considered the most important prayer in Judaism ("Hear, O Israel, the Lord is one") was banned, as a denial of the Trinity. A Jew converted to Christianity was entitled to inherit his or her father's estate, to the exclusion of the still-Jewish brothers and sisters. Similar laws applied to the Samaritans.

This really opened the door for the Pontifex, and the church to assume the control they would enjoy over all of Europe for the next 1260 years. Up to this point the Pontifex had normally been the Emperor himself, but that would change shortly after….

Four characteristics and one time period are clearly stated.
It shall a) be given into his hand until a time, and times, and the dividing of time;
b) speak words against the most High;
c) change times; and
d) change laws.

This can all be summed up in a much easier form simply by going into the duties of the Pontifex Maximus. Among the official duties of the Pontifex Maximus were:
1) Maintaining 'pax deorum’, or peace with God or the gods.
2) Administration of jus divinum or divine law. (Change the Laws)
3) Setting both the Calendar and the religious calendar. (Change the times)

After Justinian I, also:
4) Persecuting heretics. (Wearing out the patience of the saints)

That only leaves speaking out against the most High. This happened not only with the Emperors but also later with the popes themselves. As I said above, normally the Pontifex Maximus was also the Emperor, and after Julius Caesar was voted the title Divus or “god”, it not only became a custom to do this for other Emperors but there was even a Emperor Cult which was based upon the practice. So when such a person spoke, they were speaking with the authority of god, this was used later with the Popes in the guise of “Papal Infallibility”. Basically, being a god or speaking as the advocate of God on earth.

So in this one charater you have a person who: A)Claimed the autority of God on earth, B) Set both the calendar and the religious cerimonies, C) Set criminal, civil, and religious law, D) was charged with persicuting anyone who did not follow those laws, and E) came up out of the old Roman Empire, and remained after the Roman Empire until removed from power many years later.

Emperor Gratian (359-383) even went so far as to refuse the title of the Pontinfex Maximus as unbefitting a Christian title:

Under the influence of Ambrosius, Gratian prohibited Pagan worship at Rome; refused to wear the insignia of the pontifex maximus as unbefitting a Christian; removed the Altar of Victory from the Senate House at Rome, despite protests of the pagan members of the Senate, and confiscated its revenues; forbade legacies of real property to the Vestals; and abolished other privileges belonging to them and to the pontiffs. Nevertheless he was still deified after his death.

This was the point at which the title shifted from the Emperors over to the Church, and Pope Damasus I (366-384) was the first to have bestowed upon him the title of Pope.

the Emperor Gratian, at the urging of St. Ambrose, removed the Altar of Victory from the Forum, withdrew the state subsidies that funded many pagan activities and formally renounced the title of Pontifex Maximus.[14] It is said that Pope Damasus I was the first Bishop of Rome to assume the title,[15] From the reign of Theodosius, no power or office in late antiquity has claimed or contested the legitimacy of the Bishop of Rome from holding the the ancient Roman title and office of Pontifex Maximus. In Emperor Theodosius's edict De fide catholica of 27 February 380, enacted in Thessalonica and published in Constantinople for the whole empire, by which he established Catholic Christianity as the official religion of the empire, he referred to Damasus (bishop of Rome, in the Latin-speaking west) as "pontificem" and to Peter (bishop of Alexandria, in the Greek-speaking east) as "episcopum" (from Greek ἐπίσκοπος:

One of the most corrupt Popes in the history of the Church I might add:

Many in both Pagan and Christian society saw in Damasus a man whose worldly ambitions outweighed his pastoral concerns. His entertainments were infamous for their lavishness. Praetextatus, a wealthy aristocrat and a high priest in the cults of numerous gods, reportedly joked to Damasus, "Make me bishop of Rome and I will become a Christian". Some of his critics called him "the ladies' ear-tickler."

So at this point, with a masive amount of power handed over to the church, and the Emperors faiding out, we stay until 1260’ish (its off by a matter of litteraly months) years later.

On febuary 20, 1796, General Berthier of the French army of Napoleaon Bonaparte, invaded Italy, and captured Pope Pius VI, who died in captivity. The point of the campaign was to “re-establish the Capitol, place there in honour the statues of heroes who had made themselves famous, and to arouse the Roman people benumbed by many centuries of bondage".

Pius VI must revoke the Briefs relating to the Civil Constitution of the clergy and to the Inquisition. The Pope refused, and negotiations were broken off; they failed again at Florence, where an attempt had been made to renew them.
The Directory sent him ferocious instructions. "The Roman religion", they wrote, "will always be the irreconcilable enemy of the Republic; first by its essence, and next, because its servants and ministers will never forgive the blows which the Republic has aimed at the fortune and standing of some, and the prejudices and habits of others. The Directory requests you to do all that you deem possible, without rekindling the torch of fanaticism, to destroy the papal Government, either by putting Rome under some other power or" which would be still better "by establishing some form of self government which would render the yoke of the priests odious."

For this expedition for Berthier's entry into Rome and the proclamation of the Roman Republic (10-15 February, 1798), and for the captivity of Pius VI, who was carried off a prisoner to Valence, see PIUS VI.

Thus ended the 1260 day/years of the reign of the beast “that was, and is not, and yet is“, and it still is, even though its no longer reigning, and has given up its control to the next world superpower which came into existence at almost the same time Napoleon was invading Italy.

reply to post by Eddy_P

"Seven kings" = 7 religious faiths of the Mediterranean region from a 5000 BCE to 95 CE religious perspective.
"Five have fallen" (ie. been superseded) = 1-5.
"One is" = 6.
"Other not yet come" = 7.
The "eighth" = 8. The "ten horns (kings)" = - -.

1) Babylonian gods
2) Egypt gods
3) Judaism
4) Greek Mythical gods
5) Roman Mythical gods
6) [B](Roman) Christianity[/B]
7) Islam
- - Waldensian, Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Presbyterians,
- - Quakers, Baptists, Congregationalists, Mennonites, Methodists.
8) Mormonism

This is an interesting concept from the first glance, but I am not really sure I understand it fully. My biggest question is what exactly are the ten kings supposed to do?
Also as was pointed out, while that many be some of the most popular pagan religions, its far from all of them. Its also missing a number of other religions, mainly Protestant religions.

Originally posted by SouthernBelle82
Do you know why some churches don't offer the cup? I find that interesting.

Because they believe in transubstantiation and its too dangerious to allow a commoner to drink as they may spill some of it.

Ahh the Great Roman Catholic Church. What horrors they have brought on man throughout the ages. There are very few real saints and godly men in the catholic church. If you seek the truth you wont likely find it with them. Why do they knowingly defy christs teachings? I believe it is due to the fact that they follow tradition rather then the original teachings of Lord Jesus. And they have to submit to the authority of the pope. The pope is not god, I think people should seek god themselves, instead of commissioning someone to speak gods will for them.

There have been very few real saints in the catholic church. Very few liberated enlightened men. Lord jesus would very much dissaprove of many of the ways of the church. Of that I am sure. And the history of the church is stained with the blood of innocent men, women, and children.

Do not believe in anything unless it agrees with your own intelligence and is conductive to the good and betterment of one and all. Do not condemn anyone even the worst sinners among us. When one is willing to give everything up for god that is when he shall find god. God looks after his children. Seek god within yourself not in a book.