When Isaiah Berlin examined the difference between the sense of nation and nationalism he suggested the following:

"[nationalism] is in the first place a response to a patronising or disparaging attitude towards the traditional values of a society, the result of wounded pride and a sense of humiliation in its most socially conscious members, which in due course produce anger and self-assertion"

It would seem to me that this is at the crux of the flag debate. Those that hold liberty as the guiding light of a nation will never allow a flag to become an object of veneration. When a flag becomes an immutable symbol of a state or nation, an unquestionable ideal that must be objectified, it ceases to be a symbol of true liberty.

Thus, when a flag stops being just the symbol of a nation and becomes infused with the superiority and wounded pride of nationalism its objectification is inevitable.

One or more of these reasons caused this to happen:

1. The store owner doesn't know the US Code that he violated
2. The store ownder has an agenda
3. This was a clash of two extremists
4. The Veteran understands the US Code
5. The Veteran got emotional and didn't see any other way to solve the problem

I don't know what to say without talking to the store owner. Not knowing his intentions cause any assessment to be based on personal opinion and not fact. That is not the way to go.

I also don't know why the Veteran got so emotional and failed to tell the store owner that he was doing something illegal. He took it upon himself to take the flag away.

Some would argue the Veteran did the right thing. Well guess what, i'm active duty and I don't think he did the right thing. There are many ways to fix a problem and this wasn't the right solution. Educating the store owner is the correct way. If he fails to correct the problem then get the authorities involved and let them handle it.

This is a tough topic to discuss since many people will get emotional over this. Emotions have nothing to do with US Code. One person flew the US flag the wrong way but the other destroyed and stole private property. Both were wrong, but the end result isn't going to change a thing when it comes to the illegal acts that will continue because of ignorance, agendas, or emotions.

Originally posted by xpert11
Woland a lot of good people have died for what there nations flag symbolizes and the values it represents . People should have enough respect for there country that they would do something as disrespectful as this. By respecting a country flag you show that above all other debates you respect your country and what it has done for you.

Alot of good people have died to further the wealth of the few also, should we salute the corporation also?

People died for the flag of bad countries also.

We must salute the ideals and know them. I would say that a better indicator of weather someone supports there country is how they support the ideals of there country.

Do they support the Constitution? Do they even know any of the constitution?

Do they believe in checks and balances?

Do they believe in an informed electorate.

Someone can teach others to jump up and down and salute a flag, if they do not teach why, it has no value.

I have had this conversations 100 times when not online, I always ask the person, what part of the flag do you respect. They say freedom, or democracy, or sometimes The American Way. When you then ask what do those things mean, they actually stop as if it is the first time they ever really thought about it.

[edit on 9-11-2007 by Redge777]

If mexicans or any other nationality want to do things like this they shouldn't be in america, why disrespect the country you chose to live in ? it's like the mexicans want to make america mexico,,,leave america and live in mexico if your so damn "proud" of your own country,,,nobody wants u there anyway...

if i had the oppertunity to be able to live in america i'd be more patriotic that a american...

Originally posted by Redge777
Alot of good people have died to further the wealth of the few also, should we salute the corporation also?

WTF ?
You do know that wars were fought before the current Iraq conflict right ?

People died for the flag of bad countries also.

Other then the war criminals every solider who dies on the battlefield deserves to be remembered.

We must salute the ideals and know them. I would say that a better indicator of weather someone supports there country is how they support the ideals of there country.

Have you read the posts I have made on this thread ?
I have said that supporting your country ideals and culture and supporting politicians isnt the same thing.

Do they support the Constitution? Do they even know any of the constitution?

That and your other points are beyond the scope of this topic feel free to pop over to AP and have your say.

Someone can teach others to jump up and down and salute a flag, if they do not teach why, it has no value.

Well if pride has no value then there is no motivation to better one self or country.

There will be a civil war in America, because it’s already here, right now, it’s just not being covered by the mass media, and officially labeled as general crime by the law.

Corporations have been busy getting ready for it.

A movie has already made about it years ago, it was an HBO special I think, literally called “The second civil war”.

Denis Leary was in it.

Another good example is Tom Clancy generating games which clearly depict an open war with Mexico.

All of the pieces of this puzzle are falling into place. The dollar is plummeting; our wars have bankrupted us, China is “diversifying”, the collapse of the housing market, the prices of guns and ammunition going up, etc.

Buckle up America, it will be a bumpy ride.

Not for nothing, but this particular incident has already been discussed in great detail a short while ago.

I'm sure an appropriate search would find it.

Originally posted by xpert11
WTF ?
You do know that wars were fought before the current Iraq conflict right ?

You mean Panama invasion when their was a threat to take the canal
You mean funding the contras to stop socialism or communism spreading and hurting banana republics
You mean, Vietnam to protect Capitalism from Communism, since communism is the biggest threat to the corporation, leads to nationalization of resources and companies.
Or Cuban invasion to return ownership to corporations and get back resources and ownership
Or Korea, See Vietnam.
Or how Germany in WW1 was making a colony grab
Or how America made a resource colony grab in Spanish American war
Or how We expanded into SW in Mexican war and fought over Texas Land
Or how we took land in Indian wars, we moved them when they were on the good land, however not as corporate as much as land owners
Or how the Hawks wanted to take Canadian land in war of 1812
Or how the Land Owners used class dissatisfaction to break from England in revolution

Other then the war criminals every solider who dies on the battlefield deserves to be remembered.

As does any civilian, or any other person for that matter.

Do they support the Constitution? Do they even know any of the constitution?

That and your other points are beyond the scope of this topic feel free to pop over to AP and have your say.

I disagree, respecting, or disrespecting a flag is a free speech so the constitution has direct bearing on the conversation.

Well if pride has no value then there is no motivation to better one self or country.

Having respect or beliefs in values, then those values represented by a flag or country has value, as you stated above, so I was not directly speaking of your quote then. However, I made my comment because of what I said, most people I meet never think of why, or understand that to believe in free speech requires one to praise the opportunity for someone to say something you virtually disagree with.

If someone says something you think is wrong, expose him as wrong, or teach or learn from him what is actually correct, but I do not believe anyone should say they cant say it.

If someone burns a flag, they honor the principles for which the flag stands as they desecrate that flag. I put the value in the ideals not the actual flag.

Originally posted by iskander
There will be a civil war in America, because it’s already here, right now, it’s just not being covered by the mass media, and officially labeled as general crime by the law.

What really steams me, is it will be one group of peasants fighting another. It will so upset me if the criminal element and the police, or protesters and the police slug it out. Get good judges and put the top leaders in the US in jail, and let alot of the non violent people out.

Originally posted by Redge777
I put the value in the ideals not the actual flag.

But isn't it those values that you hold represented by the flag?

That's what the flag, or any countries flag for that matter, stands for: Values and what that countries soldiers did to insure that people like you and me can have whatever rights are given to us.

My father was a soldier, so the flag might mean a little more to me than others I guess. I understand that my dad, as well as other soldiers, defended my country, and that flag represents this place we call home, and that means all the good and bad things that come with it. Yea, that flag represents freedom, liberty, democracy, and the American Way, all of which you said, but it also represents what we as Americans are all about: Freedoms not granted to most other countries.

Freedom of Speech

Freedom of Press

Freedom of Peaceful Assembly

The list goes on. (Anyone can contest that those rights are being stripped away, but that's not the argument, now is it? )

I applaud that Vet for what he did. No other countries flag should be flown above the country you're living in. As far as him crumpling it up and tucking it under his arm? I don't see that as disrespectful at all. He took the flag down and hastely tucked it under his arm to take it away from where it was being disrespected.



[edit on 9-11-2007 by Valdimer]

Redge777 not every war every war has been about making money. It would seem that you are letting your political views get in the way facts . Communism enslaved millions of people and it just so happens that capitalism is a part of the free world. Germany had colony's before WW1 so your comment about that conflict doesn't stack up.

Need I go on ?
Now people are revising history to suit there political views. I'm sure that every country has done some things that were unwise but that doesn't mean that a person shouldn't have pride in there country and the flag .

We have no right getting mad at the store owner. Let's face it, anyone who's seriously studied the Mexican American War can tell you that we STOLE Nevada from Mexico...I bet the pro-Minutemen types aren't going to tell you that.

im so sick of mexico/ illegals and the fact that they think it is a god given right they can cross illegally into our country. we need a president who will get homeland security, the FBI and anyone responsible for invasions and send these people back. if the berlin wall worked so can the south west wall. they are ruining our country no matter how you look at it. they pay no taxes, pay no insurance, get free health care, and then yell racist when you want them out. we need a president who will not care about what the mexicans say on this issue. we need to stop giving them money for stuff this is getting out of control and will soon cause an uprising.

Yeah it's just a piece of clothe, it's only fabric, and that man has the right to burn it, spit on it, etc... however, I think anyone who would do that to ANY nation's flag is just as vile as the scum around a public toilet rim....in Mexico!

A flag represents the people more than it does the government, so burning a flag is one big F-U to an entire nation. You might as well drive down the street giving everyone the finger, but that requires a little courage, at least you're brave enough to face the people, right? Yeah, I doubt that would ever happen

How is burning a flag a form of protest? It's pretty tasteless, imo, and snows no class. How would you like it if someone were to 'unload' on your family's crest? I bet many advocates of flag burning wold probably wet their panties at the sight of someone desecrating their school logo.

If that had been a British flag I couldn't careless if he wiped his backside with it. It's his flag, he bought it and he can do whatever he wants with it. Why people get upset over something so trivial is beyond me. The guy who got upset and then starts prattling on about war is completely out of order.

Does anyone care that he was actually flying the American flag? He could have chosen not to fly it at all. And so what if he has pride in his country. So what if he loves Mexico a bit more than the US because it's his home? He can probably just make more money here, possibly to send back to his family in Mexico so they can stay in the land they love. This is all hypothetical, but appropriate none the less.

No one has the right to steal or destroy another's property, plain and simple. By stealing the shop owner's flag the veteran was displaying his own disregard for American law and should be arrested, or fined.

What an awful lot of silliness! Out of curiosity, would people've been offended if he had flown only the Mexican flag? Or does it need to me merely flown higher than the US flag in order to cause such a reaction?

I live in a town in the UK with a large Italian community, they have Italian flags on display all the time. What a pitiful world it would be if Jingoistic pin-heads took it upon themselves to be offended at such a sight!

It strikes me that nationalists and other bigots enjoy getting offended and kicking up a stink.

This only my belief so please understand..I am an Irish american, My family is from Ireland but I was born here so I am an american. I have given ten years of service to this country so I am a bit more compelled to love my flag and understand what it means to be an american and I hold it in very high regard, While I was overseas I learned a few things: one, Its all about the guys next to you, This guys are my family I would die for them and I was prepared to die for them and two: I serve the united states but I fight for my buddies, family, americans , my home state and my country. I respect another heritage but if your here in america there is nothing that should be flown above old glory..Sorry but thats how it is..