Europe R.I.P.

Europe as we have known it is disappearing. Soon there will be no France, no Germany, no Italy, no Austria, no Spain, no Denmark, no Belgium, no Holland, no Greece, no Ireland, no Great Britain. Every country will be gone. In their place will be the European Union.

The sovereign countries of continental Europe and Great Britain are products of unique histories and rich cultural distinctiveness. Each country's language, art, literature, philosophy, music, architecture, cuisine and mores reflect the uniqueness of each country's history.

This amazing diversity is to be replaced with an artificial creation that has no history and no language. What is the European Union but a centralized bureaucracy with a monetary unit?

What explains this amazing demise of countries, which, hitherto, were staunch guardians of their national identities?


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The people of all of those countries wouldnt allow it. If a power is going to take over they need to do it gradualy. Maybe the countries that support it will join. Then it will take years and years and years for the other countries to join. So it could happen, but not any time soon.

Originally posted by ilovepizza
1) The people of all of those countries wouldnt allow it. If a power is going to take over they need to do it gradualy.

2) Then it will take years and years and years for the other countries to join.

3) So it could happen, but not any time soon.

1) Yes of course they will allowed it ! Their nationalist feeling is very low. The problem is that they don't care of what's going on.They don't care about their own country and they don't care about the EU. We are just a few who think that the EU is not a good thing. But the majority don't understand what's the EU.Our political leaders didn't tell us what's the EU. Nobody don't understand it.

Just look what's happened with the Euro accurancy. 60/70% were happy, and the other 40/30% didn't know what they had to think about it. Only nationalists peoples were upset with the Euro.But in the EU, to be " nationalist " mean to be " nazi " in peoples mind. So, everybody was afraid to say " I'm against the Euro ".

2) Not at all ! Eastern Europe country are pushing to join the EU. Poland, Letonia, Lituania, Estonia, Finland, Bulgaria, Hungria, Romania.....all of them want to join the EU.

3) Wrong. A EU constitution will be set up for 2003/2004.
I wonder what will happen, cuz we have ALREADY a Constitution. But I'm not worry, like for the Euro accurancy, nobody will dare to say anything, and this Constitution will be accepted !!!!!!!!!!!!

[Edited on 8-12-2002 by ultra_phoenix]

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix
2) Not at all ! Eastern Europe country are pushing to join the EU. Poland, Letonia, Lituania, Estonia, Finland, Bulgaria, Hungria, Romania.....all of them want to join the EU.

Support for EU Membership (source: Euro-barometer)

Poland 51%
Letonia 41%
Lituania 41%
Estonia, 33%
Bulgaria, 74%
Hungria, 60%
Romania 80%
Finland � already member

OK, maybe you may say that Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary �pushing� in some way. You may also say that they have no other choice after all those years of previous Russian �union� damage. They already paid fees for rich Western Europe. Now they desperately need to be supported.

And again EU is kind of quick-fix on the way to borderless world and new �borders� definition. And as all quick-fixes EU is a big pain. However it is a part of much bigger plan how to avoid total world scale catastrophe (or make ultimate).

Look El Presidente for all the world processes not just simple, regional facts. Facts will always fool you.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
...The sovereign countries of continental Europe and Great Britain are products of unique histories and rich cultural distinctiveness. Each country's language, art, literature, philosophy, music, architecture, cuisine and mores reflect the uniqueness of each country's history.

This amazing diversity is to be replaced with an artificial creation that has no history and no language. What is the European Union but a centralized bureaucracy with a monetary unit?

Huh? Canary Islands is *in fact* o prototype EU since 1500 or so. We are all a mixture of Spanish, English, Frenchs Germans, Italians, every European culture, plus Marocco, plus some more African countryes, plus...

We don't think our culture is flat and poorly developed. Actually we are proud of our mixed cultures and the cultures developed upon these...

As being actually European, i see nothing wrong in EU, and contrary to what you are actually saying, Europe is going to remain a bunch of independent countries, only with centralized laws and development programs. A confederation of States (reminds you of something? )

[Edited on 2002-12-17 by MakodFilu]

Yeah, it does. We had state's rights once, and meaningful differences between the states. Now, we don't. Keep that in mind when "federal" crap starts getting shoved down your nation's throat after a while.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Yeah, it does.

It does... what? I don't understand which point are you refering here.

We had state's rights once, and meaningful differences between the states. Now, we don't. Keep that in mind when "federal" crap starts getting shoved down your nation's throat after a while.

Didn't I stated *I* live in Canary Islands, a *federal* prototype even if not intended? I see nothing wrong here. Just a lot of wonderful mixed cultures which makes us even greater.

Originally posted by MakodFilu

I see nothing wrong here. Just a lot of wonderful mixed cultures which makes us even greater.

That's where we don't agree MF. For me, it's NOT wonderfull and we will not be greaters. Europe have evoluted without any cultural interferences ( or just a few ).

It should be possible if the new immigrants were all ready to learn the language, the culture, the religion and the way of life of their new nationality. But they don't.

They want to keep their language, their culture, their religion and their way of life. And most important, they try to impose their OWN languages/cultures/religions/ways of life in the country where they want to go live.

They don't want to be assimilated. They want to ASSIMILATE us ! They are acting like the Borgs in Star-Trek !

An exemple ? : In my country ( Belgium ), we have 3 officials languages ( French, Duth and German ). And now, our muslims and middle-east immigrants want to impose the Arab like a fourth language and the Charia laws !!!!!

It is not a borg attitude ?

If you want to come working/living in Belgium, you have to learn french, dutch or german.And if you don't want ( or are not able ), go back to your country !

If you want to come working/living in Belgium, you have to respect ours laws and Constitution.And if you don't want ( or are not able ), go back to your country !

If you want to be a Belgian, then, it's easy ! Speak, act, think, work,walk,sleep, eat, drink, live and die like a Belgian. And if you don't want ( or are not able ), go back to your country !

These new immigrants do not respect their new country and hate the allochtones and their way of life. That's why they are threat for our culture.

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix

Originally posted by MakodFilu

I see nothing wrong here. Just a lot of wonderful mixed cultures which makes us even greater.

That's where we don't agree MF. For me, it's NOT wonderfull and we will not be greaters. Europe have evoluted without any cultural interferences ( or just a few ).

I'm living in one of the fews, then. I'm lucky

It should be possible if the new immigrants were all ready to learn the language, the culture, the religion and the way of life of their new nationality. But they don't.

They want to keep their language, their culture, their religion and their way of life. And most important, they try to impose their OWN languages/cultures/religions/ways of life in the country where they want to go live.

I think it should be sufficient with the language. All must speak Spanish here, whatever the origin, because we are Spanish. About culture and religion, we wouldn't care less: we have lots, as there are Germans, English, Lebanese, Indian, Frenchs,..., living all here. No real treats to our culture. In fact, most of us embrace certain aspects of their culture, and they embrace our culture as well (mostly). We took the best of them. They become *us*. A great trade for me.

Originally posted by MakodFilu

I think it should be sufficient with the language. All must speak Spanish here, whatever the origin, because we are Spanish. About culture and religion, we wouldn't care less: we have lots, as there are Germans, English, Lebanese, Indian, Frenchs,..., living all here. No real treats to our culture. In fact, most of us embrace certain aspects of their culture, and they embrace our culture as well (mostly). We took the best of them. They become *us*. A great trade for me.

I believe you, really.

But remove the Frenchs, the Germans and the Englishs. Replace them with Turkish, Algerians and Moroccos peoples, and we will see if you are still happy !

We don't have problems with asiatic or other europeans peoples. We have many problems with peoples who are comming from Africa, North-Africa and Middle-east. In fact, peoples who are NOT europeans !

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix
But remove the Frenchs, the Germans and the Englishs. Replace them with Turkish, Algerians and Moroccos peoples, and we will see if you are still happy !

We don't have problems with asiatic or other europeans peoples. We have many problems with peoples who are comming from Africa, North-Africa and Middle-east. In fact, peoples who are NOT europeans !

I mentioned Lebanese, wich are from Middle-east. Not a problem here, there are muslims here as well (my aunt is lebanese). I even know a nice muslim girl (wich wears exactly as we do, no bhurka, or whatever it's spelled).

But you almost got a point here. Marocco ones are recent inmigrants here, and we are experiencing the problems you portrayed. But now there are Marocco childrens in the schools. We are integrating once again. There is a cultural trouble now, but that problem will not be there in ten or so years. As I said, we are integrating with another culture once again.

[Edited on 2002-12-20 by MakodFilu]

Originally posted by MakodFilu

1) I mentioned Lebanese, wich are from Middle-east. Not a problem here, there are muslims here as well (my aunt is lebanese). I even know a nice muslim girl (wich wears exactly as we do, no bhurka, or whatever it's spelled).

2) But you almost got a point here. Marocco ones are recent inmigrants here, and we are experiencing the problems you portrayed. But now there are Marocco childrens in the schools. We are integrating once again. There is a cultural trouble now, but that problem will not be there in ten or so years. As I said, we are integrating with another culture once again.

1) With what I saw about Lebaneses peoples who are living now in Australia, I'm skeptic.

2) Yes, sure....We were thinking like you, 20/30 years ago. But now, we understand that we did a terrible and deadly mistake. The majority of the immigrants from the second and the third generation are NOT assimilated and don't want to be assimilated.That's the big problem with them. Just a few are assimilated, and we don't have any problems with them. It's the opposite. And those who are assimilated have many problems with their fellow immigrants who are not assimilated. They are looking them like treators to their culture and religion.

Anyway, you are lucky until you don't have any algerians and turkish or Ghaneans.They are the worst, specialy the Algerians and the Ghaneans ! Even the maroccos and the Tunisians hates them deeply.

Wait 15/20 years, and you will understand what I was telling you in my posts, 20 years before.

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix
1) With what I saw about Lebaneses peoples who are living now in Australia, I'm skeptic.

Dont be so skeptic: as i said, my aunt is lebanese... Good friendly people...

2) Yes, sure....We were thinking like you, 20/30 years ago. But now, we understand that we did a terrible and deadly mistake. The majority of the immigrants from the second and the third generation are NOT assimilated and don't want to be assimilated.

In 500 years of story here since Spanish colonization, and further mixture of races, that never happened here... You could be right this time, or you couldn't. I hope not. I have hope in my heritage. We did in the past. We will do it again. It's not a coincidence my island is called 'The friendly island'.

Visit Canary Islands: warm nature...

P.S.: There are lots of Ghineans here as well... In fact, almost *any* country in Earth is represented here, Chinese, Venezuelan, Thailandese, Belgian, Austrian, yeah, even USA ones... And the list goes and goes for nobody knows how long. The problem here is we are getting overpopulated, but that is not a real treat: most European countries have a very low birth rate, Spain being one of the worst cases.

One thing to note, thought: most Frenchs, Germans, English, Chinese, Venezuelans,..., all are Canary now, no longer strangers, we all look similar after a few generations (as I said, we took the best part of them and they become *us*).

[Edited on 2002-12-20 by MakodFilu]

I hope for you mako, I hope for you....Otherwise....

Originally posted by MakodFilu

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Yeah, it does.

It does... what? I don't understand which point are you refering here.

We had state's rights once, and meaningful differences between the states. Now, we don't. Keep that in mind when "federal" crap starts getting shoved down your nation's throat after a while.

Didn't I stated *I* live in Canary Islands, a *federal* prototype even if not intended? I see nothing wrong here. Just a lot of wonderful mixed cultures which makes us even greater.

How can you get confused by my simple answer to you question? Didn't you ask me if something reminds me of something? Keep up!

Yes, you did say where you live - the Canary Islands. You say it is a wonderful mix of cultures. Great, but your social climate doesn't necessarily have anything to do with your laws, and how you'll feel if your laws are superseded by any E.U. laws that will come done the pike. Or maybe you don't feel that strongly either way when it happens. Maybe the lack of concern will be because you really haven't given much thought to it, or maybe it is because there isn't much to lose or worry about in your situation. I can't say either way because I know little if anything about your home, other than it is worthy of visiting, and I know little of you as we havn't talked much yet.

I have spent some time on the mainland of Europe, and I have had many frinds - English, German, a couple Belgian, and even (gasp!) a couple French. I know how there used to be individualism, but that started to wain a bit. Now it has devolved to this point.

You have a "wonderful" mix of cultures. Great! I'm glad you enjoy it. I enjoyed the individual cultures with which I've made contact and hate to see them come closer to losing their uniqueness.

The main point, once again, was that when you lose part of you sovereignty, you'll eventually lose more than you expected. If this is no concern to you, please disregard.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
...(rant)...I can't say either way because I know little if anything about your home, other than it is worthy of visiting, and I know little of you as we havn't talked much yet.

Obviously again, you miss a third way: we can vote. We oppose *any* law which are outrageously against our country.

I have spent some time on the mainland of Europe, and I have had many frinds - English, German, a couple Belgian, and even (gasp!) a couple French. I know how there used to be individualism, but that started to wain a bit. Now it has devolved to this point.

Don't be so afraid: England is still a bunch of individualists.

You have a "wonderful" mix of cultures. Great! I'm glad you enjoy it. I enjoyed the individual cultures with which I've made contact and hate to see them come closer to losing their uniqueness.

Again, I invite you to come here to personally see if intercultural exchange is all that bad...

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Europe as we have known it is disappearing. Soon there will be no France, no Germany, no Italy, no Austria, no Spain, no Denmark, no Belgium, no Holland, no Greece, no Ireland, no Great Britain. Every country will be gone. In their place will be the European Union.

Never the brotherhood will not allow it! We will fight to the end against this enemy!

On behalf of all the Mc's over here that are worthy of their "Mc", this Mick appreciates you.

Ninja of the Night: I invite you too to take some Guinness beers (or even better, enlighten me about the world of best Irish beers), and chat friendly about politics. We will discover we are not so different...

Regards,
MakodFilu

Well i would love to stay and chat over a pint but the brotherhood is always on the move from the damn MI6.