Well, aside from saying amen to Brother Wupy's post, I'd like to add that I think a lot of people get omniscience confused with predetermined. Knowing what will happen doesn't necessarily mean that you are manipulating what WILL happen.

Counting cards doesn't change the next card up.

Yes, I believe we are free moral agents. And, yes, I believe there are some people who are absolutely angered by that concept. Because then they have to take account for everything they do, choose, believe, decide, etc. Instead they want to blame a big bad "GAWD".

Oh well.

[edit on 11-6-2007 by Valhall]

We have our free will. Preordained is the promise of justification, sanctification before the foundations of the world. God knew those who would reject or accept him before they were ever born. God has not condemned anyone to hell..Your free will has done that...if you reject God. After all hell is the only place God is not and if you don't need him in your life then you will have that opportunity, in hell, to be free from God. Death is not the cessation of life, it is the cessation our bodies endwelled by our soul and spirit. Death is separation, separation from God and God is omnipresent, except for hell...In hell your torment is to be repeated by those who have rejected God, such as the boston strangler, hitler, murderers, rapists, child molestors, for these will continue the rest of your life, after all those are the ones who didn't want God in there lifeand they are going to be your family, forever.

Originally posted by mrwupy
Just my opinion

well, it's a prety crapy opinion......lol

you will have free will when you leave this world.

So you believe there is a heaven? But you said the bible is BS in the first place. The bible is the book that opens up the idea of a heaven, (beside the original Egyptian religion where it all came from) without the basis of the bible, there is no heaven. The idea of heaven comes from the bible, to believe that there is a heaven without accepting the views of at least the quran, the bible, and so on, does not work in any logic.

That is like accepting the reality of the Easter bunny, without believing in Easter……

Originally posted by andre18

So you believe there is a heaven?

No, I did not say that. I said I seriously doubted the proposition of heaven or hell.

Quite frankly, I don't believe in either. I am a spiritual Anarchist.

When I die I am not going to suddenly become enlightened. I will still be me with the free will to do as I choose to do.

I plan on coming right back to this world. I like it here. The food is decent, the people are fascinating and the sex is fantastic.

I do not dream of streets of gold or mansions on hilltops.

I only dream of continuing this adventure of being alive.

I think he answered you.

if you are interested in thsi topic, read vonneguts book, "timequake". It's not as good as his masterpieces, but it's about this topic

I would say you do have free will. Everyone has it. The thing is no matter what choices you make they are already known. Your decisions are like the branches on a tree. The root of that tree is consciousness and the root knows what all the branches will be.

Originally posted by Valhall
Well, aside from saying amen to Brother Wupy's post, I'd like to add that I think a lot of people get omniscience confused with predetermined. Knowing what will happen doesn't necessarily mean that you are manipulating what WILL happen.

Counting cards doesn't change the next card up.

It does if you also created the deck and wrote the rules of the game. The thoughts you think are not original or your own, although they may seem like they're yours and you thought of them. Then you act on your thoughts to maybe walk across the street, not seeing the car about to hit you. The energy within your body and all matter, even down to the smallest level does not create itself - God puts it in motion. A person then walks into the street and gets struck by a car. Free will? Not at all. God had his hand in the entire process of that game of cards. Yes, he did know beforehand what was going to happen, but not just because he understands cause and effect, but because he is actively controlling all aspects of the game, otherwise he could never be sovereign.

Yes, I believe we are free moral agents. And, yes, I believe there are some people who are absolutely angered by that concept. Because then they have to take account for everything they do, choose, believe, decide, etc. Instead they want to blame a big bad "GAWD".

Oh well.

But by your reasoning, YOU can never receive free salvation from God, because you are admitting that you have free will and are liable for your actions. How do you reconcile that (presuming you are Christian) the bible makes it clear salvation is a free gift, yet you are automatically placing conditions on it by saying you are absolutely responsible for your actions and God has not part in it?

Originally posted by ben91069

Originally posted by Valhall
Well, aside from saying amen to Brother Wupy's post, I'd like to add that I think a lot of people get omniscience confused with predetermined. Knowing what will happen doesn't necessarily mean that you are manipulating what WILL happen.

Counting cards doesn't change the next card up.

It does if you also created the deck and wrote the rules of the game. The thoughts you think are not original or your own, although they may seem like they're yours and you thought of them.

Only if you think (believe) that way. I can't help you in that department. I can just share I don't agree with your thinking.

But by your reasoning, YOU can never receive free salvation from God, because you are admitting that you have free will and are liable for your actions. How do you reconcile that (presuming you are Christian) the bible makes it clear salvation is a free gift, yet you are automatically placing conditions on it by saying you are absolutely responsible for your actions and God has not part in it?

I can easily resolve it. Salvation is an UNMERITORIOUS gift from God. That means I cannot ACT in a manner that can earn it. But I can exercise my free moral agency and believe it (i.e. I can accept the unmeritorious gift offered). That's not merit...that's cashing my ticket in. If you choose to take a different ride, so be it.

Free will is an illusion. Consciousness is a byproduct of complexity. Functional MRIs have shown that the autonomic portions of the brain are already activating the muscles of a limb many milliseconds before we think of moving it. The conscious mind is a secondary process that serbves to sort through various paths generated by the subconscious mind. subatomic particles combine and create atoms which form molecules which form life which forms organisms like us. All our behaviors, no matter how complex, could be predicted by a sufficiently advanced computer if it could plot evry subatomic particle in the body and all the stimuli affecting the body. Someday that will be possible. You can name that computer "God". Some say the universe is god and we are part of a massive computer simulation running in it. Imagine Microsoft Word asking Outlook if it has free will while both are running on a PCon a desk. LOL

Well the spirit world and God is real. enough said there.


but if the original question of the paradox of all knowing and all powerful needs to be answered that is simple.

God being all knowing knows what we will chose even though he gave us freewill, why because being all knowing he knows every reaction of every atom that will make up the influences that make us chose. Imagine a computer program starting with a non changing set of rules, and an uninfluenced set of objects, the outcome would always be the same.

So he can step in and make minor tweaks to change the systems results.

Now if you want to know how we still have free will, what if through his all powerfulness he chose, to not think of, or not know a future event until it was decided by events and actions. His all powerfulness could allow for limiting the knowledge.

Giving free will, means some choices are ours, him knowing what we will chose does not mean it is not our choice. And he could decide not to know.

[edit on 7-11-2007 by Redge777]

[Isa. 29:16; 45:9.]
But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? 

We have no right to ask God: "Why?" Remember that He answered Job's pleas for understanding merely by reminding Job of the fact of creation (Job38-41). As our great Potter, He has the right to make His pottery vessels both for honor and dishonor (Ro9:21). We who have been redeemed by His mercy should be grateful that He chose us even before the world began (Ep1:3-4 2Ti1:9), confident that He--by whatever means He chooses--is preparing His "vessels of mercy" (Ro9:23) to receive the full manifestation of His glory in the ages to come (Ep2:10). The fact that our finite minds cannot comprehend the simultaneous operation of divine election and human responsibility is irrelevant. Both Scripture and human experience demonstrate both to be true. We must both rest in that fact and act in light of it.

Paul describes 2 different vessels both made from the "same clay" (v21 "same lump") so to speak. Both deserve destruction & I have had mercy on some. God determines whether a man will be a Moses or a Pharaoh. Neither Moses, nor Pharaoh, nor anyone else, could choose his parents, his genetic structure, or his time and place of birth. We have to believe that these matters are in the hands of God. However, this does not excuse us from responsibility. Pharaoh had great opportunities to learn about the true God and trust Him, and yet he chose to rebel. Paul did not develop this aspect of truth because his theme was divine sovereignty, not human responsibility. The one does not deny the other, even though our finite minds may not fully grasp them both.

I will ask God questions and sometime criticize, he gave me curiosity and desire to learn, he will forgive me if I am rude, and chose to answer the questions he wishes to. He is the potter because through free will I wish to be the clay, why because he loved me and I love him and know his ways are better, for me, and any he can mold me to help.

We are grateful for his love, but not because he chose to save us, but because he loves us so much it was what he of coarse would do, it is his love that I am grateful for, his mercy is part of that. He will not chose us to serve in his ways, he will give us opportunity to serve him, if we say no, he still loves us, if we are strong enough to be there when a call comes to help another he will use us. He will love us either way. As you said he is preparing us, I believe part of that preparation is the expansion of our mind to better understand his glory.