Do we have free will?

In the beginning god created the heaven and the earth, gen 1:1

Did god create the earth unaware of what would happen?

The bible claims god is omniscient and that we have free will, do we?

The god of the bible is said to be both omnipotent and omniscient, it also claimed in the bible that we have free will, is it possible for there to be and omnipotent god and for its creation to have free will?

Here is a little experiment: Do something, anything at all, that you don’t think god could have possibly known you were going to do.

Can you do it? Can you surprise god?

If you can, then god is not omniscient. It is not all knowing. If it is not omniscient then how can it be omnipotent?

If you cannot surprise god then how can you have free will?

You cannot do anything other than that which god already knows you are going to do.

The bible says god knew everything before it created the foundations of the world. EVERYTHING

This means that it knew that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

An omniscient god new this would happen.

This means that it knew that its creation would run amuck and do evil things.

That it would kill 99.999999999% of all life on earth in the flood ad it would still not fix the problems of evil.

It knew before it created the earth.

It knew what Stalin, Hitler and other despots would do on the future.

With this knowledge what did the bible god do? It went on and created the world.

God created us just like it wanted us to be.

It created the world and all on it with a foreknowledge of every detail of what would happen and because it is both omnipotent and omniscient nothing can be changed from what he knew would happen.

So when you stole that cooke at age 5 or Hitler killed 6,000,000 Jews, it was all apart of gods will.

Remember, it knew in advance yet it went on with the creation. If what was going to happen was not what it wanted, it would not have created it.

All that is, is the will of god.

Free will and an omniscient god are logically impossible.

If you sin, god knew you would, it created you anyway and you can not do other than what it knew and thus willed.

If you don’t believe in it, it knew you wouldn’t, yet created you anyway. It is its will that you don’t believe in it.

So the bible god, being omnipotent and omniscient is responsible for everything. Evil, sin, death etc.

Everything that is, is the will of god.

“We must question the story logic of having an all knowing, all powerful god, who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for its own mistakes.”
-Gene Roddenberry-

Hi. Unfortunately your question is what is called a 'logical paradox'.

IOW, it is not possible to discuss the 'Free Will' question because it is something 'outside our system'.

Usually it's called Newcomb's Paradox.

It's like a 2 dimensional being trying to discuss 3 dimensions. There's simply no language or concepts available to discuss a 'condition', outside of that system. They wouldn't have words or concepts for 'above' or 'below', for instance.

Similarly, we might discuss the 'Multiverse', but we could never experience it because it's outside our 'bubble of reality'. It's the subject of science fiction.

Though people discuss Free Will, no valid conclusions, right or wrong can be made because of it involving stepping outside of the very system in which it's attempting to be discussed.

Again, you can't even say if it's possible, or probable, exist or not, because you have to be outside a system to comment on the very nature of that system.

Hope this makes sense.

Originally posted by Badge01

It's like a 2 dimensional being trying to discuss 3 dimensions.
'outside our system' wtf.........LOL

You think god would have to be outside of our universe to exist....man i'v heard that one before....

But of course, the pink elephant exists, but it lives outside our system and it cannot be understood........

[edit on 103030p://am3004 by andre18]

reply to post by Badge01


Yea, basically what I was thinking.

I think its that the God described in the bible knows what will happen, but we still have the choice. It know what you will do, but you're also the one who chooses what you will do.

Basically, it know what you will choose. Now that is still free will. Its not like god chose for it to happen, it just knew it was gonna happen.

And about all the bad things happening, picture it as if God put the world/everything in existence in cruise control (OR something similar to when you play SimCity and let things happen on their own). It knows what will happen, but it didn't choose it.

Now do I think bible described God is weird, yes (Its natural). Why create something with the knowledge of its failure. Whast also weird is that bible lets us know of god as this being that is greater than the universe, but gets tired from creating earth? Isn't earth but a spec of dust compared to the universe?

Another another anomoly is that, the bible suggests that this "God" is not bound by time (He created it because "God created all things" according to the bible) but in the bible it says...
"First God created heaven, then earth, 'then this, then that, then that'.." And so forth. But all of that is IN SEQUENCE, which means it is infact bound by time. Sequence is one of the indicators of something being bound by time. Wouldn't this God who isn't bound by time, just "Poof" up everything without having to do this first and that last?

The bible described God is full of inconsistencies IMO.

Remember though, this is just IMO. I don't follow religion (Can't stand it) or any of the stuff.

Originally posted by andre18


“We must question the story logic of having an all knowing, all powerful god, who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for its own mistakes.”
-Gene Roddenberry-

This quote is stupid for the simple fact that "God" (Described in the bible) didn't create faulty humans. If Gene would've actually read the bible, it says/implies first man was flawless and "perfect" until he then sinned. Meaning we as humans created fault, and "Inherited sin" (According to the bible).

Now God created the possibility for fault. But that is because that what comes with the "package" of Free will.

Now if you question why did this God allow it, that is because of FREE WILL.

I'm just speaking in accordance with the bible.

[edit on 6-11-2007 by ChronMan]

Originally posted by andre18
Can you do it? Can you surprise god?

BENDER: (To God) So do you know everything I'm going to do, even before I do it?
GOD: Yes.
BENDER: Well, what if I do something else?
GOD: Then I don't know that.

ChronMan

if god is all knowing, it would have known before it created us that we would sin,

and yet god blames us for our sins that god already knew we would commit before it even created us.


"BENDER: (To God) So do you know everything I'm going to do, even before I do it?
GOD: Yes.
BENDER: Well, what if I do something else?
GOD: Then I don't know that."

lol.....damn i remember that episode.....that was good....

But honestly, you can’t do anything else, because everything you do, is in the direction, of gods will



[edit on 113030p://am3030 by andre18]

Originally posted by andre18
ChronMan

if god is all knowing, it would have known before it created us that we would sin,

and yet god blames us for our sins that god already knew we would commit before it even created us.

[edit on 113030p://am3006 by andre18]

Yea, It knew we would sin but, That is the price of free will is it not?
That is complete free will. If we are not able to do bad, that would be complete free will. It knows its gonna happen but it doesn't choose it.
Now if it created us without the possibility of bad, there probably wouldn't be the possibility of good. It would be just normal (Not good, not bad).

But I speaking from my understanding of the bible described god. I don't follow the bible. I'm agnostic in belief.

I believe we all have free will, but it's all up to the person and how they choose to use it. I believe God designed the world and governs it through natural laws that are inherent in everything. And these natural laws can be discovered by observation, experience and reasoning. Most of us go through life working, paying bills, raising kids, paying our taxes and sleeping basically. But whose to say you can't just split and live on your own like Grissley Adams, fend for yourself, hunt for your own food and survive without anyone around. Most people choose the simple way and abide by government laws.

You even have the free will to not believe in God. God becomes a great excuse for everything. If we're happy we thank god for being happy. If your unhappy you ask god to fix it. If we're unsure of what to do we ask god for direction, but where does personal accountability come in. I don't think God is a personal genie and does everything for us. Our decisions come with consequences. Our fortunes and misfortunes are by our own actions in life.

So yes again, we have free will to do whatever we want but remember that where there is action there is a reaction. Live your life naturally and make good decisions and you'll be happy, and then tell yourself I did this not God or anyone else.

To the OP; you have found a lot of wisdom. This topic eludes the majority of the entire world, and I mean not many people can come to a conclusion on this.

Originally posted by andre18
Did god create the earth unaware of what would happen?

Yes, for the most part, the world is being deceived:

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

It knew what Stalin, Hitler and other despots would do on the future.
So when you stole that cooke at age 5 or Hitler killed 6,000,000 Jews, it was all apart of gods will.

Yes. For God would not allow something to happen that he did not ordain. One might ask, how God could create beings to destroy and there is a logical conclusion. We refer to angels as "God's messengers" or "God's servants" and both of these are true, but that does not mean they are hidden from our sight or do good bidding. In fact, angels have been used in the bible to destroy things. So when you look at all the world today and all those that are seemingly doing inexplicable wickedness, remember this verse from Revelations 9:16 :

The number of the armies of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.

Angels are not necessary to work behind the scenes, for if God is all powerful then he does not need minions in the spiritual realm - only in the physical realm. These "horsemen" are all around us battling us by their actions to convince us of the truth or believe the lie. Most people are believing the lie, part of which is free will.

God created us just like it wanted us to be.

How could any creation exist that was outside what God wanted? He created us weak to eventually raise us up to glorify his name in his purpose.

Free will and an omniscient god are logically impossible.

There is no other truth higher than this. Therefore we are blameless if we only believe all things good or bad are God's work. Only then can we love all the creation, otherwise we are responsible for our choices.

If you sin, god knew you would, it created you anyway and you can not do other than what it knew and thus willed.

If you don’t believe in it, it knew you wouldn’t, yet created you anyway. It is its will that you don’t believe in it.

This is why Revelations describes the 144,000 "sons of God" that are chosen. They have no choice in the matter. They are also the "other Gods" mentioned in Genesis at the account of the fall of Babylon. They are the hybrids between God and the woman, and what the woman in birth pangs in Revelations is about to give birth to.

So the bible god, being omnipotent and omniscient is responsible for everything. Evil, sin, death etc.

Yes. All evil is for the edification of God. It is to shame and reprove the wicked to show them God will raise "sinners" up at the last day. Until that time, it looks like business as usual.

Everything that is, is the will of god.

Yes. Even this thread. It could not have happened any other way or it would not be here.

I had this same argument with one of my religion professors in college and the answer I got resembled Hillary Clinton dancing around an issue.

The Christian God is supposed to be the master of the past, present, and future. He/She knows everything that has happened, is happening now, and what will happen in the future. My question for my professor was something similar to "How can a good God create a human being knowing ahead of time that he is destined for eternal torment in hell?"

I guess you all believe what man has written and not what God has given you in your heart and soul.

reply to post by Solarskye


Your previous post just got done telling us all that man has written and believes and I personally voiced my opinion of what God has made me believe in and you posted next that it is not of God.

I am currently believing that which is not written by man, because it is "without reason".

reply to post by Badge01


That makes alot of sense.. It depends what you are talking about when you think of free will..
Each day that we live has many different outcomes.. We have the free will to make any reality we decide to create..
When you wake up in the morning you can either get out of bed, and get on with your day.. Or you can stay in bed and do nothing all day long..
Yet the thing is we have to live with our choices..
We must live with others choices that affect our lives by that choice made.

But if God knows all before it happens, how can we make a choice?
That is the paradox..
Thats like saying.. Can God dig a hole so deep and wide not even he could jump it?
These are the very questions that allow us to feel out our limits..
We are very limited to our thoughts.. And its just how it works for us here.

I just like to think of this as you sleep in the bed you make..

I would just like to know.. WHAT is free will anyway?
And what is control?

We have free will, we choose where to sow it.

Edit: The Godhead knows all, but we do not. we must walk the paths we choose. God has read the book of all that is. He knows the chapters, the characters, what will be done, etc. We exist in that book though.

We must act, correct? We choose how to act, correct? We have a will that we control. "Why can't I do this, or that?" We build machines that allow us to do whatever we want. If we merely have faith that we can do something... we can.

We can.

Now, see this.. 6 6 6 = 18 = me;can. 666 The number of man. 666 = Self, ego.

We need to get back with God. I believe there was a man 2000 years ago that showed us the way.

Matthew 17:20
He replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

This world is governed by man. His systems are overseen by himself. Governments. Man can't handle the knowledge of good and evil, so when we attempt to create a controlling, a governing system, there are always flaws.

The true flaw is in our self-created mind. Adam and Eve made clothes for themselves when they created the ego by gaining the knowledge of, what can be done... and what should be done. The knowledge of God. We do not have the mind of God, so how can we properly utilize his knowledge.

I've trekked for years in the folds of my mind. I arrive at Jesus. The man was real, the things he did were real. I believe.

[edit on 6-11-2007 by depth om]

reply to post by ChronMan


How could man be perfect if he sinned?

sounds rather unlogical...

Yes we have free will.

"God" dont control us, we are responsible for our actions and they get consequences, both in this world and the next.

As for seeing the future, I think its more like every soul having a "track" its on. The possible future in this world from this can be seen as prophecies. But if key people involved change their actions, so does the prophecies.


[edit on 6-11-2007 by Copernicus]

Originally posted by Fett Pinkus
reply to post by ChronMan

 

How could man be perfect if he sinned?

sounds rather unlogical...

Because when you have free will, sin is always a possibility. And the bible lets us know first man was perfect being.
On the contrary, how does it sound unlogical? Elaborate. Because it seems as if you are implying that with perfection, you aren't capable of sin.

Does that sound logical enough for you?

[edit on 6-11-2007 by ChronMan]

Originally posted by depth om


We need to get back with God. I believe there was a man 2000 years ago that showed us the way.

And I guess that man was Jesus, hmm how quaint, the bible says believe in Jesus or you will go to hell, accept Jesus’s teachings etc, etc......

How is that not taking away our free will? Telling us how we must live our lives, one way or we will certainly go to hell. The very existence of the bible's meaning contradicts free will.

This has been discussed to death through out the ages and still no one has a clear answer.

Thats cool, now I get to set things straight

When you are born it is pretty much determined that you will go to high school. That is predestination. When you get to high school you get to choose what classes you will take and what your major will be. That is free will.

Free will and predestination are two perfectly compatible subjects, if you will only think about it.

Which I have.

I learned to think outside the book, to trust in the creator of all things rather than in the teachings of religion. It was truly mind opening.

Lets look at the facts. You are here, you have free will and you can do anything you want. That is a fact. There are consequences but that is just a part of the learning process.

Religion tells you that you you are going to heaven or hell. Thats speculation put upon you by people who want at least 10% of your paycheck.

God doesn't need your money, only religions demand that.

You had free will before you came here, you chose to come here. You have free will now and you will have free will when you leave this world.

That is the evidence that you can look at and test.

Let no man guide your soul, trust in the creator for he will never lead you astray.

Forsake religion and you will meet God.

Just my opinion,