Input on the real Holocaust.

I believe that mathematics can help determine if it is possible for 6,000,000 jews to be exterminated during WWII.

First lets make some assumptions:
There were many concentration camps around Europe, there were about 13 major camps. Lets be conservative and say that 10 of the 13 were the busiest.
Lets assume that the camps were built and the infrastructure was in place 2 years before the war.
Lets assume that people were shipped to the camps at the beginning of the war (1939) and stopped in 1943.

t (time) = 4 years = 1460 days
n (people) = 6,000,000
c (camps) = 10

The number of people exterminated (N) per camp per day can be represented by the following formula.
N=(n/t)/c

Therefore 6,000,000 / 1460 days = 4110 people per day.

4110/10 = 411 per camp per day.

That is approx one train load to each camp per day.

The germans were exterminating people in the camps for longer than 4 years, there were more than 10 major camps and in addition there were LOTS of smaller camps.

There would have to be the logistics in place to support this. Maybe 25-30 trains, agents in major towns and cities gathering people to be shipped to the camps.

It seems totally plausable that 6,000,000 jews were exterminated during WWII. I know my numbers are not really accurate, but with these numbers it seems do-able.

Alot of times when trying to substantiate a claim or position, body-counts are used to make the point. Hitler/Germany killed 6 million +. Stalin killed 13 milllion +. Sadaam killed x-thousand +. Milosevich killed 2 million +.

I tend to look at the physical aspects of these claims as they relate to they evidence they would leave behind.

Namely:

How much does a human skeleton weigh and how much physical space does it require?

If incinerated, how much ash is produced and again, how much does it weigh and how much space is required to store it.

Given those above amounts times 1k, 1mil, 10mil. why is there no direct, physical evidence of such crimes and proof of the sheer magnitude of them?

If today's pathology-sciences can exhume a skull from x-thousands of years ago and determine how old it's owner was and how they died, can't they at least offer some concrete proof of all these claims being valid?

There is no way to know for sure how many died. But the Germans did keep records. And not all were destroyed. I think 6 million is a rounded up number to make it sound even. But even if 3 million jews half that number really died, not killed, starvation & sickness included.
It's still a huge genocide of innocents. For they guy who posted 20,000 only, well I am going to trust eye witness accounts of NON-JEWS who where there that witnessed 3 to 4 years of this genocide. Although they were few and far between there where some Germans who refused to become NAZI's or support the war machine thrown in there, some lived to tell their stories. And they support the account of the mass genocide of jews.

It seems that this issue of the holocaust comes up every so often to remind everyone of what happened. I just saw a great doco about this exact issue and why everyone in this world needs to be reminded about this. The doco is called:

"understanding Anti-Semitism - Why do some people dislike jews"

And it is from these people:

www.honestmediatoday.com...

They did an excellent job of interviewing both sides of the party, showed documents with very detailed NASI records keeping. As well as actual footage of the camps and all of the records that did survive.

They also interviewed several Rabbis that totally agreed with the facts that went against common beliefs about the holocaust. The Rabbi was also able to get copies from the Jewish registry of the census that it takes every year of how many jews there are in the world. The Rabbi was able to get copies of every year during the war, before as well as after. And the Rabbi concluded that by their own records and admission, there were something in the neighborhood of about 350K that were actually killed during the war. The records also showed that there was actually a little bit of an increase in Jewish population for the last year, or something to that effect.

Sorry that I don't have the exact numbers but I saw this doco a while back. But I believe you can still order it or view it from their webpage.

I'm not trying to stir anyone up here, but I thought that this was an excellent doco focusing on this exact issue and presented, in my opinion, a very fair and balanced view from both sides and offered evidence from both camps. I would also like to add that most of the people that offered facts and records to go against popular belief, were physically threatened as well their lives threatened, by their fellow Jews.

Interesting watch either way and really makes you think about things.

My .0000002 cents..

The problem is that alot of people these days who don't bother to educate themselves on the subject believe that WWII had to do with only the holocaust and that all Nazis are evil and that al Germans are Nazis.
It was not the Nazis or the Germans who killed the Jews or started WWII but rather a select few people who happened to be in control of said political regime and this doesn't necessarily include Hitler.
While it is no secret that Hitler did not like Jewish people, he was not alone, some of his Generals and subordinates felt more strongly than he did about it and it was they who gave the direct orders to exterminate and not Hitler himself.
Just to clarlify a few things, up untill the start of the war Socialist political parties such as the Nazi party were becoming quite popular worldwide and were well on their way to winning a permanent place in world politics. Had it not been for WWII, North America would probably still have Socialist parties as it did before WWII.
It is also a well known fact that Hitler had litle control over his Generals who very much had agendas of their own. Even the SS eventually developed a mind of it's own and started to engage in activities that Hitler was not informed of.
While Hitler was wrong about a whole slew of things, there were alot of things he was right about. In order to understand the causes for WWII one has to understand the state Germany was in before the start of the war. It was falling apart Politically, financially and socially. The fact that one man stood up and turned it into not only a financial powerhouse but the most technologically advanced nation at the time and in only a few short years deserves some sort of merit.

Originally posted by ullnevernoe
Ok, well let me start out by saying that whoever thinks that Hitler actually killed 6 million Jews and is on this thread just to rat out our theories needs to leave, because I genuinely want to talk about it. I want some input on what really happened during the Holocaust.

Ok, well first let's establish that it is physically and statistically impossible for Hitler, or the Third Reich if you will, to have exterminated 6 million Jews.



in germany you would get serious trouble with the constitutional court because of doubting this.just his.
f***ing Neo-Nazis try it that way.
and of course our NWO-friends.

[edit on 7-11-2007 by anti72]

Originally posted by tankthinker
Trust me the law is the least of my worries, but ive already attracted too much attention to myself, so ill stop posting on this thread. Im a he by the way and i dont take medication (dull attack, you could have come up with something better), i have a whole thread on Natural Cures.

It seems fair play to me, you are calling a large body of individuals liars without providing any supporting evidence. You call them liars, I call you delusional. It is a reasonable conclusion to make - we are talking about an enormous body of evidence that you are implying that you have the evidence to contradict. As In Spite Of states all this evidence would have to have been faked, all the witness statements would also have to be fabricated, that is quite an undertaking.

While it may be too dangerous for you to openly state the origin of the evidence that you possess to contradict all the evidence, it should not be too dangerous to demonstrate or bring to the front something that you know to be a lie. Perhaps you could explain what actually happened to the people on the transports - obviously if only 20,000 died then the transports, which are highly documented from both and all sides must have been going somewhere. Where?

There is still a great deal we have to learn about this period and much that we will never know, for example the British SIS "Himmler dossier" will not be released until 2045 by which time the contents will most likely have been completely destroyed, but that does not negate what we already KNOW.

We also KNOW that there are bodies of people that wish to direct our attention from the true reasoning behind the mass exterminations and the concentration camps system in general. This is more than apparent in the completely spurious claims made by people without qualification or intellect to support those claims yet they receive huge publicity and support. Google it, the Deniers have far better coverage and publicity than the genuine Revisionists.

Natural remedies? Perhaps you should try some Valerian or St John's Wort - a high starch intake is said to be very good for managing psychosis. Either you know something or you don't but all you are proving so far if that you are either delusional and/or an attention seeker.

The ball is firmly in your court - put up or shut up.

Originally posted by metaldemon2000
The problem is that alot of people these days who don't bother to educate themselves on the subject believe that WWII had to do with only the holocaust and that all Nazis are evil and that al Germans are Nazis.
It was not the Nazis or the Germans who killed the Jews or started WWII but rather a select few people who happened to be in control of said political regime and this doesn't necessarily include Hitler.

I agree with you to an extent but without Hitler it would not have happened, he helped to create the situation that enabled the Jews to be sufficiently dehumanised to allow ordinary men and women to forget their own humanity and become mass murderers.

I personally feel that the entire post-war trials were very badly managed and in the eagerness to rebuild Germany economically much of the detail and culpability was skipped - this is why we have such an incomplete understanding.

Originally posted by metaldemon2000
While it is no secret that Hitler did not like Jewish people, he was not alone, some of his Generals and subordinates felt more strongly than he did about it and it was they who gave the direct orders to exterminate and not Hitler himself.

Hitler struggled to make any decision relating to the "Jewish Question" and often reneged on those decisions he did make at the last minute. It was largely left to his subordinates to "interpret" his will, how accurately they did so is a matter of much debate. While Barbarossa was his main focus, he did subordinate domestic matters to the Council of Three (Lammers, Keitel and Bormann) and there is evidence that Bormann concealed many of the details from him but this in no way means that the original orders did not come from him. Bormann had the unique ability to sign orders in the stead of the Fuhrer but we cannot preclude the fact that those orders did not originate with Hitler verbally.

Originally posted by metaldemon2000
Just to clarlify a few things, up untill the start of the war Socialist political parties such as the Nazi party were becoming quite popular worldwide and were well on their way to winning a permanent place in world politics. Had it not been for WWII, North America would probably still have Socialist parties as it did before WWII.

I think that this is over simplifying the issues involved. Bolshevism was an enormous wake up call for those with money and power. Stalinism was far more preferably to the international Capitalist Imperialist and effectively undetermined the Soviets ability to compete in the world economy. Nazism, though based on Socialism, was fascism first and foremost. They removed all democratic process, this is what attracted inward investment largely from the US. The US had strong economic ties with Germany and had done so since the very early 1900s which re-directed much needed domestic investment to Europe, thus undermining the US economy.

Lenin's economic theories offer enormous insight into the chain of events that led to WW2 and give quite clear indications as to why he may have attracted multiple assassinations attempts. He was a popular leader who realised that the Capitalist were undermining his countries economy. Hitler was also hugely popular but he was only able to achieve this through backing from the Capitalists (although Jacob Schiff's involvement in Russia can be similarly interpreted). Without them he would have been nothing, unfortuately they found themselves unable to remove him when he had served his purpose. Unlike Lenin.

Originally posted by metaldemon2000
It is also a well known fact that Hitler had litle control over his Generals who very much had agendas of their own. Even the SS eventually developed a mind of it's own and started to engage in activities that Hitler was not informed of..

The SS always had a mind of its own - Himmler's, an entirely different kettle of fish to Hitler. Hitler was emotional, passionate and indecisive. Himmler the reverse, a born bureaucrat.

Hitler had immense control over his Wehrmacht Generals quite simply because they were honour bound by a vow of loyalty to the Fuhrer. To these Generals that meant something and in particular Guderian had great faith in Hitler's "intuitive warfare". Von Mannstein danced to his own beat, but Hitler realised the value of this in the heat of battle and many of the victories of Barbarossa a largely due to von Mannstein's initiative and that of his other Generals.

His main failings were his inability to comprehend the importance of intelligence, he only saw it as a source of "gossip", and his failure to stamp out internal insurrection before it got out of hand. He was supremely naive in this respect and held too much stock in his self-belief and "destiny".

Originally posted by metaldemon2000
While Hitler was wrong about a whole slew of things, there were alot of things he was right about. In order to understand the causes for WWII one has to understand the state Germany was in before the start of the war. It was falling apart Politically, financially and socially. The fact that one man stood up and turned it into not only a financial powerhouse but the most technologically advanced nation at the time and in only a few short years deserves some sort of merit.

Agreed.

Originally posted by redmenace
Nobody is allowed any scientific inquiry to determine the number of deaths.

Anyone who dares question the 6 million topic is branded an anti-jew or semite.

Anyways, nobody really cared about a bunch of Europeans killing each other no matter what there ethnic, racial, and religious composition. It only became an issue when it was used as a pretext to invade the Middle East and steal their land and natural resources.

Perhaps more than 6 milion jews were killed. If you have nothing to hide then allow inquiry on the subject. If it were 7 million and people only claimed 6 million, wouldn't you be upset and offended?

Personally, I would speculate it was less than a million jews and they weren't killed because they were khazarian jews.

That would of course depend upon why they are studying the numbers. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with questioning the numbers, that's what historians do.

Perhaps more than 6 million were killed. That's probably correct. Why would we be upset or offended if it turned out 7 million were murdered? Why do you "speculate" fewer than a million Jews were killed, despite evidence to the contrary? Or is all that evidence forged?

Who exactly is it that is not allowing scientific inquiry into the Holocaust?

[edit on 7-11-2007 by seagull]

reply to post by tankthinker


I really do wish you'd come across with this "superior" source, if indeed it exists outside of your vivid imagination.

So much ammunition, so little time...

Originally posted by ullnevernoe
Ok, well let me start out by saying that whoever thinks that Hitler actually killed 6 million Jews and is on this thread just to rat out our theories needs to leave, because I genuinely want to talk about it. I want some input on what really happened during the Holocaust.

Really, but you just said people need to leave...

Ok, well first let's establish that it is physically and statistically impossible for Hitler, or the Third Reich if you will, to have exterminated 6 million Jews.

Fine.

I heard recently that someone believed the reason the Jews overemphasized it was to brainwash the Jews into reuniting, which as everyone should know, is a sign of the end of days.

Was that it? You heard?...

For this reason, he put the sickest, most bad ass general at the time in the African front: General Patton.

In fact, the sickest, most bad-ass General in the US Army was serving as Field Marshal of the Philippine army, but never mind

Historians(my brother is a historian by the way so my facts should be pretty good)

If the above statement is anything to go by, suggest you start ignoring big brother's advice.

Churchill is never sitting next to Stalin. He was allies by association. I don't know what happened to Hitler and Stalin at the beginning of the war, but they broke ties really early. Why????

I thought your brother was a historian...Oh, well.

Churchill was an ally by word and deed. Why don't you google PQ17?

Churchill never sits next to Stalin because he knows what Stalin is.

Why did Hitler and Stalin break ties early? They didn't. Hitler thought he had got everything there was to get out of the relationship, not knowing that the Soviets had hidden the really important research from him. Ties were not broken until German troops crossed the frontier to kick off Barbarossa. Ties were so good early in WW2 that the Soviets invaded Poland from behind while the Poles were occupied with the German advance.

If anyone has any input, please feel free to respond to my thread, I would greatly appreciate it. And remember, if you are here to tell me that I'm wrong, leave because that's not what this thread is for.

Then why call for input?

Originally posted by metaldemon2000
The problem is that alot of people these days...don't bother to educate themselves on the subject

Yes, I'll agree with that.

It was not the Nazis or the Germans who killed the Jews or started WWII but rather a select few people who happened to be in control of said political regime and this doesn't necessarily include Hitler.

Who were the select few people who ordered the invasion of Poland? Who were the select few people who operated Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, Dachau et al?

In order to understand the causes for WWII one has to understand the state Germany was in before the start of the war. It was falling apart Politically, financially and socially. The fact that one man stood up and turned it into not only a financial powerhouse but the most technologically advanced nation at the time and in only a few short years deserves some sort of merit.

Yes, if only that success wasn't predicated on a political platform that relied on the disenfranchisement and dispossession of a select religious minority.

The Weimar Republic was falling apart because Germans had only ever known rule by personality. Hitler was to Weimar what Cromwell was to Puritan England and Bonaparte was to the French revolution, the betrayer of all it stood for.

Plus, I would like some examples of Germany being the most technologically advanced nation on earth prior to WW2.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by metaldemon2000
While it is no secret that Hitler did not like Jewish people, he was not alone, some of his Generals and subordinates felt more strongly than he did about it and it was they who gave the direct orders to exterminate and not Hitler himself.

Hitler struggled to make any decision relating to the "Jewish Question" and often reneged on those decisions he did make at the last minute. It was largely left to his subordinates to "interpret" his will, how accurately they did so is a matter of much debate. While Barbarossa was his main focus, he did subordinate domestic matters to the Council of Three (Lammers, Keitel and Bormann) and there is evidence that Bormann concealed many of the details from him but this in no way means that the original orders did not come from him. Bormann had the unique ability to sign orders in the stead of the Fuhrer but we cannot preclude the fact that those orders did not originate with Hitler verbally.

It may be perfect CYOA material, but at his trial Eichmann's defence was that he wasn't guilty because he had abdicated his conscience to Hitler, who had given the final solution legality as regarded Germany. Eichmann wasn't so focused on Bormann and others.

As CinC of OKW, I also wonder why you put Keitel, well-famed as a yes-man militarily, on a list of domestic leaders.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
It may be perfect CYOA material, but at his trial Eichmann's defence was that he wasn't guilty because he had abdicated his conscience to Hitler, who had given the final solution legality as regarded Germany.

Hi HowlrunnerIV

I had to look up CYOA on a acronym finder - I enjoy my own naivety at times.

I find Eichmann a completely pitiful character if I am honest - I think the Jews refer to him as a 'writing desk murderer' (I can't remember the German) and it is so true. These people to me are far worse than those that pull the actual trigger or drop the prussic acid through the hatch.

The major war criminals at Nuremberg, under Goring's leadership all decded to use the Hitler as Mesmer defence. It was a tactic, it failed for them and it failed for Eichmann (though he never stood a chance really).

It is interesting to note that so much of the 'Jewish Question' was dealt with by 'bright young things' - most in their early thirties, mostly of Austrian descent and largely of Catholic stock. After a dozen or so biographies the backgrounds get a little repetitive.

Eichmann cooperated fully in the false belief that the Israelis would not execute him - right until the end he didn't believe that they would execute him. The interrogation resulted in 275 hours of tapes - not repetition, just detail in the extreme - over 3,500 pages of transcript. Each tape was listened to by the Secret Service and then edited before Eichmann was allowed to listen to them again and asked to verify their accuracy for the record. Only then were the tapes transcribed and that information that was deleted was only retained by the Secret Service and was not admissible.

The British, Soviets and US did exactly the same with their prized prisoners. This is why ambiguity exists and why people are able to pick holes in the official version of the holocaust. Because there are holes, lots of them.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
As CinC of OKW, I also wonder why you put Keitel, well-famed as a yes-man militarily, on a list of domestic leaders.

I didn't Hitler did. He appointed Keitel to the Council of Three along with Lammers and Bormann. Their purpose was to handle domestic matters while Hitler was ensconced in Barbarrossa. Keitel was presumably there to act as military liaison - and of course they were at war so would have needed a military leader 'in residence'.

He was a yes man which is why he would have been appointed by Hitler for this role. Bormann of course was the power house amongst the three and this is clear from Goebbel's diaries (he didn't like any of them for obvious reasons - namely he felt he should be in charge of ALL domestic matters). Hitler was many things but he did realise that a 'yes man' was not what he needed on the Eastern front, he needed men like von Mannstein. Perhaps he placed Keitel in the domestic position to keep him out of the way....

Incidently I have tried to find an on-line reference to 'The Council of Three" and strangely cannot do so, although it is a term used repeatedly in books covering a myriad of WW2 and Nazi Party topics. If you need any further reference I can dig it out. Goebbels and Goring certainly refer to them as the Council of Three - bizarre.

It is pretty well documented that Bormann fielded reports on the holocaust and used his ability to give 'Fuhrer' orders in some instances. He also refused, later on to allow Himmler to discuss those matters with Hitler. I don't yet know enough to fully understand why...I am still learning.

Ok... Here is my beliefs about the holocaust from my own knowledge.

As a young boy around 12 years old, i started to ask questions about the WWII, because we where learning about it in school.

I knew that my grandfathers brother had been in a "consentration camp", accused of smugling food and goods from Sweden to Denmark.

So i went to him to hear his story. None of our family members are jewish by the way and never have been according to our family history books.

I cant remember all of it, as it is many years ago, but ever since, I have had absolutely no doubt that many million people where killed in theese prison camps, both jews and people accused of crimes.

it was in 1989 i confronted him to hear his story about the war. His name was Henry Rønnow.
Henry was a small thin man, with no hair on his head and artificial teeth.

After being arrested by the germans for smugling he was prisoned in a "concentration camp". I cant remember the name of the camp but i believe it was in north germany somewhere.

Here they had to work with sorting clothes, jewlery, books, goods etc.
and as he said: "I have never seen so much wealth in my life before or after".
Every item they had to sort, came from people killed by the Nazis and was considered the proberty of Hitler.
Henry and the others was told that if they tried to steal anything, it would be considered as if they had stolen it from Hitler himself.

At one time Henry got sich and was forced to work, when he fainted, a Nazi officer kicked him several times in the head, causing him to loose most of his teeth, wich he would have done anyway due to the bad hygiene in the camps he said.

Henry had a number tatoo on his lower arm, and he said that this number was used instead of names for prisoners. the number was: 1563787. I dont remember the number by mind, but it was written in a cup my mom got from him, that he used in the camp.

During his stay he lost all his hair and it never came back.
He explains this be saying: "some experiences are so cruel and hard that your body seems to stop growing and starts to die, just to relief you from life"

I am trying to remember what i asked him and what he replied but it is a long time ago so bare with me if it gets a bit messy.

At one point i remember asking how many people died while he was at the camp and he said: "in our camp, death was a daily event, and with all the pain and suffering, you sometimes wished you where jewish, so that you could just be put to sleep"

So he obviously knew that jewish people was just being put to sleep, now how many i dont know, but one thing is for sure... they where being put to sleep.

I hope you took the time to read my story and i apoligise for bad spelling and messy construction.

Originally posted by Bluess
I hope you took the time to read my story and I apoligise for bad spelling and messy construction.

I did and it was well worth the time. Sometimes you have to get down to the individual stories to fully understand the bigger picture. Thank you.

Best wishes.