Input on the real Holocaust.

Originally posted by jpm1602
'want to know the truth, the cause of exaguration?' Not from a mispelling troll as yourself. Iron out your swastika already, you're a mess.

Who's trolling who? What have you contributed other than caustic and opinionated remarks?

Challenge the post - don't attack the poster! Courtesy IS mandatory, regardless of personal viewpoints.

Tankthingy, you are neither a 'tank', nor a 'thinker' to dismiss the reality of 6 million Jews dead at the hands of the Nazis. Saying otherwise is revisionist Iranian swill. And yes, you can't spell for poop. Sorry, my misguided, mispelled forum mate.

reply to post by hinky


HINKY: ya, my grandfather was awarded Distinguished Flying Cross for his 35 sorties piloting a B-24 Bomber, missions including: D-Day, St. Lowe, Munich; he witnessed the first test of the atom bomb, so yeah I have some pretty reliable sources as far as World War 2 history goes. Oh, and should I say my last year of highschool I had a 99% avg. in history and that was all because I confused North and South Vietnam w/ N. and S. Korea's line of latitude. All that to say, I know a thing or two about history, and I know alot that the books dont want you to know. Oh and about Patton, read Hirshon's book about Patton: its the best biography written about him. For example, did you know that he felt he was reincarnated. He once lead his troops to the coordinates that he had felt there was an army base during an ancient battle he was in, and when they checked the history books, he was right. The guy was a sociopathic genius, or more or less a Sevante with too much ADD. That's all I'm saying. Is that this forum is open to debate, but it's only open for people to help contribute useful information to help further my copious study as to what really happened during World War 2. After all, the Second World War did bring about a lot of changes in government and economics as we know them today.

reply to post by jpm1602


Yes, well footage doesn't always render the absolute truth. Example, I went to the Gulf Coast after Katrina and it wasn't half as bad as the media made it sound, and let me tell you, I was in the middle of the middle. We were working with the largest construction co. in the world at that time, so I got pretty involved, and believe me the press, PBS, nobody really shows whats going on because you cant constrict the big picture behind a screen lens. Plus alot of footage that the Germans released was propaganda, not all, but alot; the Germans had a real knack for props and stage-art. The stuff is horrifying, but war is horrifying; General Sherman from the Civil War once said "War is Hell" and he was damn right.

reply to post by Losonczy


Uh, yeah well I know those records are there, it's just difficult accessing them. I have seen portions of the charts, but never a complete book or binding of any sort.

My, the freshman certainly are testy tonight. Sorry mates, but some of us take great offense to blatant attempts to minimalize the holocaust. Have a great night!

Originally posted by Losonczy
I did understand that you were speaking of total WWII fatalities, I was just interested in the breakdown. 6 years is still a short window to exterminate that many in my estimation.

Okay - I just wanted to make sure. Did you click the Wiki link I posted? It provides a detailed breakdown in an easy-to-read table.

I guess we haven't advanced as much as we've like to believe in the last 50 years. The killing mechanisms have been there all along.

We haven't advanced much at all, in terms of humanitarianism! And right at the start of WWII, the human race was beginning to grow out of imperialism but yet was largely still stuck in that particular mind-set. IMO, the killing mechanism is not an inanimate thing but rather a part of the human psyche that is in dire need of extermination.

If it's that high, I wonder why 6M Jews seems like such an unbelievable number. After all, it's only one tenth of the WWII fatalities over the 6 years you reference.

Personally, I don't have too much of a problem with that figure, for much the same reason as you. As well, at this point in time, it is still very difficult for even the most dedicated researchers to truly clarify.

The deaths in the camps, however, were caused by multiple factors including disease and starvation. The most startling numbers come from the period at the very end of the war and were largely a result of typhus epidemics and starvation. The majority of horrible pictures that have been shown of the death camps were taken by allied forces when they entered to liberate the prisoners and by that time, the number of victims of starvation and disease were very great.

The preferred method of exterminating prisoners seems to have been by gunshot - often at the edge at the grave into which they would then be buried, en masse.

The starvation was in part due to the excessive allied bombings over the areas in which the camps were located; this precluded the Red Cross from continuing their relief efforts of aerial drops of food and medical supplies to help care for the prisoners.

Typhus is caused by lice and one of the efforts to prevent this in the death-camps was the initial shower upon entrance to the camps. Most people assume that people disembarking from the trains were summarily led to gas chambers disguised as showers to be exterminated, but this has been questioned by investigations in recent years. Also, cyanide was used extensively to treat lice infestation at the time, before the safer treatments that are presently used were discovered. Piles of clothing and rags were gassed in order to remove lice.

Camp detainees who died from typhus were cremated, in order to try to contain the outbreak, until late in the war when the coal supply was depleted.

As was already posted, gas chambers require tight seals in order to be effective and to try to flood such a large area with enough cyanide gas to kill all the occupants seems not only impractical but probably impossible. Then there is the problem of getting rid of the victims, due to contact contamination. In addition, paint samples which were taken from the walls of such facilities in Auschwitz were tested and found to have no evidence of having been exposed cyanide.

One of the chemists who challenged the gas chamber allegations, Germar Rudolf, was jailed in Germany and kept in solitary confinement. I am unsure of whether he is still incarcerated or not. Ernst Zundel is also incarcerated in Germany for being a 'holocaust denier.' Walter Lüftl is an Austrian engineer who also questioned the validity of gas chamber claims based on his technical knowledge, and suffered both professionally and personally as a result.

Here are two links which provide information on cyanide gas:

Death Penalty Curriculum
CDC

It is somewhat difficult to find objective information on cyanide gas independent of the death-camp issue.

Originally posted by ullnevernoe


...And remember, if you are here to tell me that I'm wrong, leave because that's not what this thread is for.

So,

Are you saying you only want to hear from people that agree with what you are saying?

Why bother asking the question if you are going to predetermine the answer?

Originally posted by hlesterjerome

Originally posted by ullnevernoe


...And remember, if you are here to tell me that I'm wrong, leave because that's not what this thread is for.

So,

Are you saying you only want to hear from people that agree with what you are saying?

Why bother asking the question if you are going to predetermine the answer?

Exactly the point.

Revisionism at it's very finest.

Originally posted by hinky

Queenanne38: golly your cutting and pasting work is really, really cool. It's like you actually know how to look up bad information from the internet. You base facts and then have the wrong conclusions. Your info from the end of WW1 to 1939 has nothing to do with the OP question about the Holocaust or his brothers thoughts about Stalin.

do you know what the definition of conclusion is? there isn't such thing as a bad conclusion.

ww2 was no doubt a byproduct of ww1, what are you talking about?

Originally posted by ullnevernoe
Holocaust.

Ok, well first let's establish that it is physically and statistically impossible for Hitler, or the Third Reich if you will, to have exterminated 6 million Jews. I heard recently that someone believed the reason the Jews overemphasized it was to brainwash the Jews into reuniting, which as everyone should know, is a sign of the end of days. Now, to flip the coin:

Josef Stalin, premier of the Soviet Union during World War 2, exterminated 12 million people, and that's just what the Russians have told us. Historians(my brother is a historian by the way so my facts should be pretty good) estimate the real number to be close to 14 million.

Before you make me laugh any harder, let me point out two great big chasms in your theory. Number one, you say "Ok, well first let's establish that it is physically and statistically impossible for Hitler, or the Third Reich if you will, to have exterminated 6 million Jews." You do nothing to substantiate this claim, you just want people to blindly buy in to your inane theory.

Number two, why was it possible for Stalin, the ruler of a more poverty stricken nation, to eliminate twice the number of people while the third reich, the most brutal institution of the modern world, could in your own theory, never achieve the number of 6 million?

As a Jew, I find your theory and this thread laughable. Why are people so scared of Jews? Your OP comes across like a bad Borat sketch.

[edit on 6-11-2007 by PartChimp]

Ok, well first let's establish that it is physically and statistically impossible for Hitler, or the Third Reich if you will, to have exterminated 6 million Jews. ... And remember, if you are here to tell me that I'm wrong, leave because that's not what this thread is for.

Let's paraphrase the opening post to this thread, shall we:

'I am a totally bigoted and ignorant moron, who knows absolutely nothing about this subject. However, I have some prejudices born of stupidity which I want to ram down everybody's throats. If anyone else, more knowledgeable than I because they might have actually done some research, dares to disagree with my outlandish and ridiculous proclamations, I am not even going to respond to them. No-one has the right to disagree with me'.

Apart from the overtly fascistic tone, and the quite breathtaking ignorance, this seems to be against the T&C of ATS, which is supposed to be about reasoned debate.

I don't suppose there is any point in attempting to confront you with facts. However, the Nazis were nothing if not methodical and meticulously documented the millions of people they systematically exterminated.

See

www.nizkor.org...

for a start. The 5,820,960 people known (after decades of research) to have been exterminated recorded by Bauer in this list are ALL KNOWN BY NAME!!!

If you are interested to genuinely research the concept, design, architectural construction, equipping and operational methods of the gas chambers built at Birkenau, this information is widely available on record and, what is more, you can go to the site and see it for yourself.

www.auschwitz.org.pl...

As you can find out here

www.jewishgen.org...

and elsewhere, on liberating Birkenau on January 27 1945 the Red Army found and counted 836,525 items of women's clothing, 348,820 items of men's clothing, 43,525 pairs of shoes and vast numbers of toothbrushes, glasses and other personal effects from recently exterminated inmates which the SS had not yet had time to dispose of. They had by then of course disposed of the millions of discarded items from the victims of previous years, because there simply wasn't storage space.

The gas used was an industrial insecticide called 'Zyklon B'.

www.nizkor.org...

This was also used at Treblinka and the other purpose-built industrial-complex extermination camps designed and built to process hundreds of thousands of people into ash within a couple of hours.

Do some research, for God's sake, and get educated.

And no, I am not Jewish, nor do I have one single Jewish relative or family connection. Just interested in the truth, that's all.

The evidence is OVERWHELMING that the Holocaust was a REAL EVENT that took the lives of at LEAST 6 million Jews, not to mention at LEAST another 3 million Christians, political prisoners, Soviet prisoners, Gypsies, and so many more.

Do your homework and actually study some history and it will lead you convincingly to the very truth of its reality.

1) Archival photos and movies prove it.

2) The tesitmony of the still living who survived death camps proves it.

3) The documentation the Nazi's kept proves it.

4) The physical presence of the still preserved death camps proves it.

5) Millions of authentic, historical artifacts from the Hollocaust prove it happended (insignia, papers, clothing, etc.)

6) The Nazi's themselves admitted it during their own trials which proves it.

7) Allied soldiers who liberated these people (Russian, British, French, US) all prove they saw it in person.

Anything suggesting it "didn't really happen" is revisionist thought not based on any historical fact.

Im going to pretty much stay out of this thread as I see it getting nasty real fast.

I will however, direct readers to a recent ATS debate Challenge on this very subject.

In it, both nyk537 and truth4hire did an outstanding job debating both sides of this ruthless argument.

Did the Holocaust happen?

good luck to all parties.

I figured that we were about due for another thread attempting to convince us all that one of histories greatest atrocities didn't happen. This one's a bit lamer than most however...

Germany, at the time of WWII, was one of the worlds industrial powerhouses, second perhaps only to the United States. They were more than capable of carrying out the Holocaust, because by golly, they did it. No amount of attempted revisionism is going to change that.

You can argue the actual numbers murdered all you want, it won't change the reality of the Holocaust one iota.

the moore you dig in the reasons of ww2...the moore questions you find....
could be for supremacy of the world.....could be oil..could be the german technology (haunabu's for instance) and so on....

but lest's face it....the allied forces have alway's knewed wat happend to the jew's...and they silently let it go on...why???
even amerika sended the jewisch refugy's back to germany...!

there are still to much secrets about all wat happend that time....now the last leaders and players in it all are dead ore dying soon its to hope that all facts will be unveilled......but I have the feeling we will never know..


[edit on 6-11-2007 by ressiv]

Ahem! Time to dawn the gas mask. Poison gas was used in WWI. There is no TV, nor Internet, only radio, and fireside chats. There are radio shows only, there are some cars, there is a Great Depression in the '30's. There is dought, and farms are dirt blowing in the dought. There are 400 miles/hour airplanes, there are no jets. There is Elliot Ness and the Untouchables and Al Capone before that and Prohibition. There is not the world at your doorstep, unless you tune in with a short-wave radio. The News does not travel instantly around the world. There is no instant knowing what is going on. I am not going to debate the numbers of the Holocaust, enough people died and like 20,000,000 just from this Western World which is smaller and the Allies. Even Russia has monuments to this WWII. There is only Newspapers and people jumping out of windows during the Great Depression. Then WWII. It is at least in my opinion silly to discuss such a Holocaust without reflecting on how the world was at the time.

I am sure there are old books that even explain more in the Library of Congress and such Universities that a person can spend quite a bit of time reading all about it, and without modern reflection but at the time it was happening reflection about all of it and how life was at the time of WWII. There was no rubber for tires that much, and many other things also going on during WWII.

How sad. Were these beliefs given to you by your Parents? Neo-Nazi's, KKK, Aryan Nation, Islamic Extremists and the like are indeed sad. No power and nobody with a brain cell intact believes them.

I see you have no sympathy for the victims of Katrina either. Living in your world must be difficult.

99% in High School? and......................? History is one of the most difficult courses of study in a University Curriculum. It is a lifetime endeavor. Fortunately for us on this topic, there are still witnesses alive and the books available were written by people who were there. That means the History of WW2 is probably some of the most accurate available on any period of history.

The History of Politics is a different story as it is bastardized by peoples bias. Normally honest Historians will lie like crazy if it pushes a political agenda. This is different. The Holocaust happened. It was a manifestation of pure Evil. Live with it. People are lying to you to control you. Those people are Evil. People don't hide under hoods because they are proud or because they are doing good things.

(I know I said Id stay out of this but here goes)

If anything, the history of the Holocaust has been sanitized much like the history of fascism which created the tree that bore the fruits of such a tragity. The sad thing is, this revisionist BS has spread to much of the WWII era history, and not just the numbers of holocaust victims.

I do have a question for the OP, did you really expect people with an opposite opinion on this issue to stay quiet? To me, it seems you were fishing for a harsh reaction.

I can understand your drive for the truth, but givin the material in the openning post, it seems to me the only truth you are looking for is the one that supports your current view point.

JPM, again you don't have to be jealous just because i thought up a way better name than you, also im sure my sources are far superior to your google/wiki stuff, so dont even try.