Originally posted by Skyfloating
Ive singled out statements of yours that I find revealing.

Being a DoD or Ex-DoD you might be able to tell me if these BIG Secrets are kept secret soley for reasons of national security/protection from enemies OR because the public might be outraged to know.

Hm. Since different people are outraged by different things, I can't really address the outrage thing. I've seen people on ATS be outraged over pretty much every military gadget made.

But yes, pretty much non-stop national security stuff of the sort you wouldn't want out. No aliens from Zeta Reticuli, I'm afraid, that's another department.

To Hinky and Tom:

I realize that the truth is often more boring than I would like it to be

Originally posted by SIEGE
So, Tom Bedlam, what kind of person are you ? From reading your posts
on this thread, I get the impression that you're a watchdog. You seem to
be very well informed, with a bureaucratic background that appears to
make you straddle the fence. You know things, - of things, but you can't
utter a word. Yet you're here, browsing. Why? Are you not bound by some
fear or oath?

That's why I'm not contributing any project information. There isn't an oath not to come here. I do tend to avoid some threads entirely.

But, no, not a watchdog. However, let's say you found a thread on ATS that said "I found something neat in a guy's house!", and in the thread you saw someone describing the contents of a house. In the thread, the guy was saying, "I looked in his garage and saw some neat boxes - maybe they're full of aliens! So I took a crowbar and pried his door open, and opened up the boxes. I didn't find anything, so I'm going through his house to look for evidence! This house is at 123 Maple!" That's your neighbor's house! You look outside, and sure enough, he's tearing up your next door neighbor's house while he's gone. Do you:

1) applaud his effort to reveal the truth
2) call the cops

Are you looking to "bust" someone if they do indeed put up "pieces-to-the-
puzzle that appears to you to be an "edge"?

In that case, it was a two part article on another fairly popular site. The author is a professional who specializes in military technology. In the first article, he was addressing the background of something pretty tightly held, but here and there he was using phrasing that appeared to be direct from a set of project documents I recalled. I did not know if he had it, or was being supplied with it, but either way it could have been a breach. The second part was going to be about the current state of this particular technology, so he said. So I called the SO over that project and gave him the URL to part 1.

He called me back and said that he'd read the second part and it wasn't a breach, although he agreed with me that the phrasing used in places was right from someone's docs. I've got the guy's direct email now, and I'd probably drop him a line and ask him directly first. But I'd still be calling someone if he was going to publish docs from a major weapon system.

You said, "Well, then the second thing that hit me was that it could be
construed as solicitation if someone actually DID answer him- bad for
both."
So I ask you, why is it bad for both? If we were to learn something
truthful and useful from the pieces, why would you consider it bad?

Soliciting classified information is unlawful. It's a felony. You go to jail, directly to jail, do not pass go. If you ask for someone to disclose and they do, you are both felons. I generally inform people on ATS when it looks like they're on a "fishin' expedition" which is the phrase they'll use when They® come "interview" you. Actually, just asking for someone to disclose is a crime but they generally wait for the other shoe to drop, although not always.

Your tongue-in-cheek humor comes off as condescending. Are you
laughing at our incompetence? If I've got this wrong, let me know. But I
presently don't know how to take you. (maybe with a whole shaker of salt)
You've ratted out ATS'ers in the past. What's the criteria? Your job?

Really only 3,4, and 9, where I found the questions funny. I've got a dry, black sense of humor that people sometimes find offensive. The other answers are real.

My other criteria are pretty clear, and it's not my job. If you start a thread saying that you've just broken into a crate of missile guidance systems (by the NSN) and you give me a pretty good description, and you're supposed to be delivering them to the base that does repair and service on them, then I'm going to call base security and let them know, because you're a f* criminal.



[edit on 6-11-2007 by Tom Bedlam]

Originally posted by hinky
A quick question for you, Tom. I'm a Clintonite from the DOD in 99 due to a RIF. IF you are ex-DOD, are you familiar with the term "Tiger Team" in a fashion not related to computers or contracting? Yes, no, nod, wink, or a stare will do...

Just the boyish curiosity in me asking.

I have done that very thing one time - as a contractor.

Sometimes you have to try it with a civilian looking guy. If you're still military looking, all you've got to do is get past the gate and act like you should be there. It's tougher with 25 extra pounds (cough) and a biker beard. Then you have to dress up in Boeing duds and act like you're in avionics.

If we're talking about the same thing.

A secret that I uncovered is the one where chemicals in the food, water and the products we use cause depression (and other illnesses as well).

I suffered from depression for about 20 years and was on antidepressant medication for 7 years. I found out completely on my own (internet research) that these chemicals were the cause of my suffering. I immediately weaned myself off the medication (it took about 2 months), changed my diet to all organic food and replaced all of my products (soap, lotions, makeup, dish detergent, laundry detergent, etc) with organic ones. My depression completely disappeared after that.

And to further prove my point, I had tried going off antidepressants a few years before but did not know it was the chemicals that were causing it. I was exercising daily and thought I was eating healthy (not organic), but my depression returned and I had to go back on the meds.

What really aggravates me is that over the 7 years, I had 6 different doctors who prescribed my medication (I relocate fairly often due to my career) and not one of them ever advised me to change my diet. I guess the secret is so big even doctors don't know about it.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
To Hinky and Tom:

I realize that the truth is often more boring than I would like it to be

As Hinky said things tend to fall in three categories. They add dressing to it to make small distinctions, but it's really just three.

I'll add that secrets tend to come in a very few types.

1) boring
2) out of date - might have been interesting 10 years ago, why is it still TS?
3) Tom Clancy wrote a book about it already
4) why did we do THAT?(political)
5) oh my god (bad)
6) WOW (very few)
7) that's cool
8) I really hope no-one else knows this (nearly zero)

Originally posted by Tom Bedlam
Do you:

1) applaud his effort to reveal the truth
2) call the cops

[edit on 6-11-2007 by Tom Bedlam]

Id call the cops. I do see some value in secrecy and privacy. Those calling for "total transparency of everything" could very well be calling for "total big brother control" by the way.

Originally posted by Tom Bedlam


6) WOW (very few)

8) I really hope no-one else knows this (nearly zero)

You obviously have some interesting things yet to share with us.

Sky, I am not trying to sidetrack your thread, I think you know me better than that, but I have a question for Hinky and Tom that I would love an answer to.

In amongst these secrets that you deal with regularly, do you ever face the fact that one day you may have one where you are faced with a choice of loyalties?

Example only:

Right now CA-MRSA is becoming a problem, and it may get out of hand very soon. Now let us suppose that you had evidence that there was a sure cure for this, a new antibiotic, that it could not be resistant to. The only trouble was, the PTB didn't want to use it because it was stolen technology from the Chinese. If you use it, then your assets in that location are no longer any good.

Are you loyal to your organization, or do you say screw it, and take your chances by leaking this some way? Which are you first, an employee or a human?

Sky, - I was not trying to mess with your thread by getting off topic.
However, I felt I had to question Tom Bedlam about his apparent insight
into the legalese of divulging secrets here at ATS. Some poster may have
serious, good intentions, yet shy away now because of the possibility of
getting busted. And although I agree with Tom Bedlam on some points,
especially when it comes to national security, . . . . .

I would never inhibit someone so badly that they fear expessing their
secrets in your thread.

Yes, information has to be tempered with common sense.
But what if someone out there has knowledge that answers our questions?

Originally posted by NGC2736

In amongst these secrets that you deal with regularly, do you ever face the fact that one day you may have one where you are faced with a choice of loyalties?

The only way that this has ever really come up is when I know project A is wasting time re-developing stuff that projects B and C already did last year, or project A is stuck and may fail when I know that a chunk of project D with a few twists would solve their problem.

Then you're caught in a bind where you could either save the taxpayers some coin or help your buddies get done with a project, yet you're honor bound not to disclose the solution. It is a problem. If they're under the same managerial tree, you can just mention it to the boss's boss. If they're across companies or service branches, I generally have a barbecue.



[edit on 6-11-2007 by Tom Bedlam]

Originally posted by NGC2736
Sky, I am not trying to sidetrack your thread, I think you know me better than that, but I have a question for Hinky and Tom that I would love an answer to.

In amongst these secrets that you deal with regularly, do you ever face the fact that one day you may have one where you are faced with a choice of loyalties?

Are you loyal to your organization, or do you say screw it, and take your chances by leaking this some way? Which are you first, an employee or a human?

I'm ex-DOD from the Department of Army, but work as a contractor now still within DOD - DOE among other work. This is a great question and hard to answer in some regards. When I was in the "Army", I would not do anything illegal nor unethical in the performance of my job. I saw many things that were tactical in nature but most likely open secrets now. I would not and still do not talk openly about this stuff because it can mean life or death of our troops in some cases. Some people (reporters in general) have a hard time understanding this and I don't know why.

If I thought for one second someone was talking about something he/she shouldn't; I drop a dime in a heartbeat to the CID or even an FBI friend. Loyalties to the organization, no, loyal to the nation; HELL YES.

Tom: one final word about your response earlier, other than thank you, Aberdeen. No response expected...

Originally posted by SIEGE
Yes, information has to be tempered with common sense.
But what if someone out there has knowledge that answers our questions?

Oh, thats ok. Do with this thread whatever you want.

I agree. There ARE people here who have at least SOME of the answers we are seeking. And I get the sense that they are so sloooooooooooow in coming forward.

I get impatient with the "above top secret info" here because most of its a re-hash of vague assumptions.

Originally posted by NGC2736

Are you loyal to your organization, or do you say screw it, and take your chances by leaking this some way? Which are you first, an employee or a human?

Its a two-sided issue.

Imagine telling someone something private and saying "I trust you, thats while I will give you this information. I ask you to please keep it secret. If you prove yourself worthy of secrets, I will give you more information. Thank you."

You are entrusting someone with valuable information and the first thing he does is run off and post it on the internet. Not only has he now cut-off his information source but also broken your trust...which is not really a good thing.

Originally posted by hinky

I'm ex-DOD from the Department of Army, but work as a contractor now still within DOD - DOE among other work.

Ex-Army, ex-DOE, now a contractor.

I saw many things that were tactical in nature but most likely open secrets now. I would not and still do not talk openly about this stuff because it can mean life or death of our troops in some cases.

As Hinky says, even old mission reports can be really bad to expose, depending. You'd think that sort of thing would be of no import years down the road, but in some cases it can cause all sorts of political fall-out and draw targets on people's backs, even decades after they ETS. Some people just can't take a joke...