I don't think they're here...and if they ARE...

Hopefully I have it right and this thread belongs under Skunkworks - this being my very first started thread and all.

I'm going to try and roll my points up into a flow of (somewhat) connected thoughts.

I don't think the aliens are here, and if they are here, we aren't gonna know it - unless we start looking very, VERY carefully.

"They travel millions of light years to Earth only to menace pilots, hover over airports, abduct people, mutilate cattle and either zip off at breakneck speeds or crash into our deserts"

I'd like to use this forum as a medium to explain why I think any combination of the above "Alien MO" (or any alien visitation for that matter) just simply isn't so - and then discuss.

First of all these guys aren't gonna be "traveling" anywhere. 100 million light years' distance at the speed of light (or even multiples thereof) is still so horribly inefficient, any aliens smart enough to command SoL/FTL are going to realize that conventional travel just isn't practical - no matter how long lived they might be.

The aliens would more likey be using some combination of Electricity, Magnetism and Gravity. Tesla held these forces in a particularly high regard, and I'm confident I need not point out why we should be inclined to pay attention to this man.

Throw on top of that haystack the spark of radical ideas like - for the sake of argument only - "M Theory" (endorsed by many mathemeticians and physicists alike) and the notion of consumptive/solid rocket propulsion - or any derivitive thereof - simply becomes absurd.

The aliens are gonna know this. And they're gonna be smart. And when I say smart, I mean *really* smart. Conceivably *hundreds of billions of years* smarter than us. We, the mighty hairless ape, went from walking erect to splitting the atom in a coupla *thousand* years.

You go ahead and try wrapping your head around that contrast there - because I sure as heck can't.

So then. Here we are, telling ourselves that these guys have to play by *our* laws of physics and they can only do what our scientific methods currently dictate. Mmm-hm.

In my mind, the aliens, as it were, have trivialized space travel. This idea, I think, really brings motive for visitation into question when you've achieved this degree of intelligence.

Having said all this, it just doesn't stand to reason that they'd come here, pick up a cow, take the time to experiment on it or harvest its DNA *IN PLACE* and then simply drop it back to the ground for us to find. Animals and humans alike would simply be taken and jettisoned out into space when done, or taken back home in a petri dish, or whatever.

It doesn't stand to reason they'd menace pilots, float over airports, abduct us and crash into our deserts. If we can knock out missiles with scalar/EMP/HAARP or whatever *today*, I have to seriously doubt the aliens are, or ever were, worried about us and our nuclear capabilities in the least.

If they're unethical enough to strike a bargain with our governmets to harvest us, they're not going to bother striking those bargains in the first place.

UFOs in our skies (this, however, does NOT apply to the nutty STS footage I've seen) can't be anything more than top-secret military aircraft, because it just simply wouldn't make any sense otherwise - in my mind.

If they're here, I'd be willing to bet a dollar that they're well beyond any detectable spectrum, so to speak.

And, if they ARE here? It ain't gonna be because of us. It's gonne be because of this:

en.wikipedia.org...

Thoughts?

(both edits for typos, it's late)

[edit on 2-11-2007 by guavas]

[edit on 2-11-2007 by guavas]

Welcome to ATS, guavas. I'm glad you found us.

You have a good future here on ATS with well thought out and very "readable" posts like this one.

However, a race so far advanced as the aliens you postulate, able to wonder unfettered by space and time, would have surely found the keys to immortality long ago. This is especially true since we "hairless apes" have sniffed out yon beastie of the depths, and may wrestle the clues of it's biology free within a century or so.

But the rest of your post seems on firm footing to me.

So a nice blue star to start you off here at ATS.

reply to post by guavas


Welcome to ATS. Single most frustrating online community in the world.

I don't think they're here either. I can definitely see probability determining otherwise, and that's fine, I do not disbelieve. The reasoning given for them being here is all together amazingly simple.

"They're studying us."

Okay, how many millions of years are they going to study us? The humanoid has been around for 7 million years. They may be keeping tabs on us, but if they haven't finished abducting human beings for study purposes, I don't see how they can be technologically advanced enough to travel lightyears, or "time travel," as proposed by some.

"They're taking us for food."

Okay, why? You're telling me in the millions of years it would take to advance in such a way, they haven't found an alternative to food? They need to feed off a primitive animal for nourishment? That sounds more a human reason to be here than an all knowing species.

"They're controlling our governments"

Riiiight. They're controlling our government for what reason? To see how much they can manipulate a stupid human? That seems so, I don't know, anticlimactic. Why would they bother or even care? I wouldn't see them intervining in human affairs because then they would taint an otherwise unmolested social system that they could study for great benefit as to the way "we" work.

"They're figuring out our souls"

You would think that, arrogant human.

Or my personal favorite...

"They're making hybrids."

One of the more intelligent possibilities, but again, why? Not only why, but how have they not figured this out by now? Even human science within the last 20 years as discovered break through in gene manipulation and what have you. I couldn't see them getting hung up on the "simple" biology of a human being.


What I'm trying to say is, all the reasons I've ever heard given are utterly HUMAN in thought. I wouldn't want to take "intelligence" away from a being so highly advanced as the "extraterrertrial." Even if they were here, we wouldn't know their true intentions. I think it's all kind of silly and selfish to think we're getting "figured out" down here on little ol' earth.

Edit: Someobody get the grammar mop out. That # was dirrrrrrrrty! What was I, asleep?

[edit on 2-11-2007 by DeadFlagBlues]

reply to post by NGC2736


Thank you very much! Now I have to read the FAQ to find out what a "blue star" is, hehe.

But I guess it does stand to reason that they'd have already grasped immortaility as well...hadn't really thought that one out.

reply to post by DeadFlagBlues


Exactly. We can't see past our own noses save our faces. In fact, I guess I could've shrunk my original post down to say basically what you said - human beings trying to essentially apply human being behavior to totally alien behavior.

Like microbes speculating on how humans behave to their other microbial friends.

And I'll bite - what about veganism?

You make the cardinal mistake of thinking human beings know everything about the reality we live in. When you speak of how aliens cant be here because nothing can go faster than light, you are much like a guy in Rome 2000 years ago, saying there is no such thing such as quantum physics. Well, there wasnt in that time, but it came.

Human theories have been proved wrong again and again throughout the centuries. Imagine 2000 years in the future. We will most certainly not believe the speed of light is the fastest way to travel, trust me. Have a look at what has happened since 1907, just a hundred years ago. We hadnt even went through the sound barrier back then. Women didnt have the right to vote. And so on.

Maybe its difficult to accept that our current science dont know everything for some people. For me, its very easy.

The rest of your post is your opinions, and you are free to have them, even though I believe you once again argue from a human standpoint when you say that they would treat us as we treat some animals on this planet. Not every life in this universe will agree with the humans way of doing things. We are barbarians in my opinion. If other alien races were like us, they would have destroyed themselfs long ago in some silly war over skin color or similar.

They are not the ones who are sitting around killing eachother on their home planet. We are.



[edit on 2-11-2007 by Copernicus]

reply to post by guavas


U2U me anything specific you want to know about Veganism and I'm ready to blow your brain apart like a bad sci fi movie. I'm currently "vegetarian" because I have to get fat for a huge thread I'm about to do about the benefits of a cleanse and subsequent Vegan diet. It's going to be pretty wild, hopefully change some minds about the diet.

reply to post by DeadFlagBlues


And guavas, after you read that stuff, or worse yet, try to cleanse yourself that way, you'll feel like you just spent a year in the intensive care unit at the local vet"s place.

Red meat, only slightly scared by fire is man's natural food source.

Sorry Dead Flag, I couldn't resist.

I regret derailing threads with diet related discussion. I always feel like a dick, because I'm always right. The perpetual cycle of making one person understand, only to have another jump in his place is so tiring.

Originally posted by Copernicus
You make the cardinal mistake of thinking human beings know everything about the reality we live in.
[...]
...I believe you once again argue from a human standpoint when you say that they would treat us as we treat some animals on this planet.

This really confuses me. I'm arguing this - just as you. We need to stop assuming aliens are like "us", behave like "us", and use rocket fuel like "us".

Because when you start applying the human pattern of behavior to aliens, it absolutely makes no sense that they'd be here.

THEREFORE...

Our accounts, and what we *think* we understand about them, can't even be conjecture at this point, so, if they're around, they are NOT what we think they are and do NOT fly what we think they fly...

???

(edited for typo, not enough coffee yet)

[edit on 2-11-2007 by guavas]

reply to post by guavas


Ah sorry about that. Yes, I realize now that I skimmed your post too quickly. We are indeed on the same wavelength here.

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
I regret derailing threads with diet related discussion. I always feel like a dick, because I'm always right. The perpetual cycle of making one person understand, only to have another jump in his place is so tiring.

I have an extremely strong opinion about meat eaters, vegetarians and vegans.

But that is definitely fodder for a different thread

reply to post by guavas


Start your second and let's get at it.


My guns are always loaded for that very subject.


Really, really, huge ass guns.

If they are visiting us then for them visiting us/menacing our pilots/flying over airports is their way of playing a practical joke on their next door neighbors. I don't think they travel at the speed of light, I think they can poke wormholes in space time using huge amounts of energy.

Its funny some people say if aliens exist where are they, while others say what makes us special enough to be visited. I think well I don't think we are that special however maybe theres something about us thats special. Maybe theres something in our DNA that makes us special, for example maybe no other creature in the universe has skin like ours or can have red hair or something like that. Aliens might think 'wow they look neat with their * colored hair' and seek to find out more information about us a bit how we'd react if we saw an albino gorilla or something we'd be like wow that looks interesting and no doubt scientists would study it and see what makes them like that. Of course I could be very wrong but I do think they visit us.

My two cents.

I pretty much agree with what you've said, but I'll take it one step further - that it isn't necessarily *us* they'd be interested in.

Earth is a veritable cornucopia of life. Fish, reptiles, insects, mammals, plants, the list goes on. From an outside persepective, I would imagine Earth being an intergalactic biologists dream.

I would tend to think that if they even *are* here, they're ignoring the hairless apes and studying the really cool stuff in our oceans' depths.