Christian Seeking Answers About Masonry From a Mason's POV

reply to post by Duolos


Faith and Masonry are two separate thing .. Masonry is a Philosophy on how to direct your self through actions and words.

Faith is your own personal set beliefs that you your self carry, which can be combined with a Philosophy to better achieve the goals of your religion.

I know of no religion where making your self into a better person is "sinister"

It is my belief, based upon what the Bible tells me, that if one does not recognize that Jesus Christ died on the cross for the sins of the world to restore our relationship with God the Father, that they are lost, and in eternity will be forever seperated from Him

Well .. sucks for me then doesn't it? .. along with every Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, "Pagan" religions, etc, etc, etc

In a brotherhood, such as a Masonic Lodge, there must be love for one another....I'm certain that there is. This is where, as a believer in Christ, I have trouble reconciling Christianity with masonry. If you are my brother, and I love you...how can I not share that which I believe to be eternal saving truth with you in an effort to not cause division?

Because.... its rude. Honestly, it is. I don't want someone shoving their beliefs down my throat every corner I make. In Masonry we ask "do you believe in God" .. thats that, there will be no more religious discussion about your beliefs, its not our business to know anything about it, and its not your right to try and convert everyone you meet.

Though, I would say 90% of Masons ARE Christian.

How can I pray with you at the beginning of our meetings, and truly believe that in truth, based upon Jesus' words, God's not hearing your prayers?

*takes deep breaths*

Ok.

I believe in God. You believe in God. My God is definently different then your God. So whos right? .. We both are. God has many ways of being worshiped, if I choose not to follow a book am I any less of a person?

To assume because you cannot trust your brother is praying to the same God as you and hes banished to hell for it -- that is just ignorance.

1. Is it true that Masons must acknowledge the existance of God?

As others have said, we do not put forth the idea of what God is, only his existance. Your God comes from your bringing up through childhood, or perhaps a personal self exploration that lead you to another truth. It does not matter "what god" you choose to worship, so long as it is Supreme.

2. Is the Masonic position that there is one, universal God; and that when Hindus, Christians, Muslims, etc. pray, they are all praying to the same God, despite what they call him?

God has many forms and can be worshiped by any manor of worships. To think your way better then that of everyone else is believing blindly. For instance, the Hindu religion is thousands of years older then Christianity.

3. What is the Celestial Lodge Above, and how does one enter?

Generic word for Heaven as almost every theistic religion has a Heaven. You enter by being a good man.

4. Is it Masonic position that the Bible is only a symbol of God's will and not necessisarily to be obeyed?

Not sure what you mean here.. No, it is not Masonry's position that you must obey the Bible. It is not a requirement to be Christian.. I believe so far in this thread you have already had your questions answered by someone who is Jewish, and my self who is not a Christian. But you couldn't tell that, not from simple writings.. it really shouldn't be an open scrutinization of someones worth.

5. Do Masons believe that all religious scriptures are to be honored equally?

No.

That is a personal choice .. though I would hope you at least respect the other books? Masonry as an institution is completely grey in this manor .. it may lean more Christian in bias because so many members are Christian.. but when asked by a brother another book can be used, Koran, Torah etc.

All you need to know is this --

Masonry is a secular society .. if it wasn't I could not agree with it.

Masonry is formed in such a way that it IS NOT A RELIGION which is where so many get confused .. so your path to your God is dictated on the requirements and fulfillment of YOUR religion -- where as others have their own systems, neither is right nor wrong.

Masonry is a Philosophy, a school of thought which offers teachings to take men and lead them on a path to self betterment -- having absolutely nothing to do with your religion.

There is no Masonic God.

There is no Masonic Dogma to dictate worship.

There is no adverse practices in Masonry that would move against ANY religion.

All teachings in Masonry can be found at the core foundation of ALL religions in the world, but in such a way to extract the teachings without the religious dictating aspects of it, purifying it from contamination.

Masonry should help you along in your path to your own divine being .. but it should NEVER replace your religion .. because it is not a religion.

I think that Freemasonry would be ok if they took all of the religion and secrecy out of it. This is why I think you Masons are only mocking the Holy Bible but do not know of what you do.

There is nothing secret about Jesus and he is all that you need.

"As others have said, we do not put forth the idea of what God is, only his existance. Your God comes from your bringing up through childhood, or perhaps a personal self exploration that lead you to another truth. It does not matter "what god" you choose to worship, so long as it is Supreme."

You are mis-directed. Jesus is real, all you have to do is listen to him. He will respond, all you have to do is ask. Although he won't reveal himself completely because he wants you to need him and to have faith in him. I don't know how to explain that I hear Jesus. I don't mean by hearing his physical voice but I look to him for answers and he responds in various forms. Open your hearts and you will feel his presence.

If I could just get through to only one person on this board to get them to change their mind about Freemasonry then that would be great! Only Jesus can save us though for we are all bound by sin but you have to accept him in your heart and speaketh with your tongue. Please abandon Freemasonry and quit mocking him! I'm not here to judge you, I'm only here to help spread the word.

Jesus is the only one who can help us along in our path toward the goal.

[edit on 4-11-2007 by spirit7]

reply to post by spirit7

I think that Freemasonry would be ok if they took all of the religion and secrecy out of it. This is why I think you Masons are only mocking the Holy Bible but do not know of what you do.

....Do you even read what Masons here say? .. Masonry is in NO WAY a religion, and should not be used as its substitute.

There is nothing secret about Jesus and he is all that you need.

...In your personal opinion.

Which has nothing to do with anyone else. In other words, worry about your own soul.

You are mis-directed.

I am not the one trying to convert people into a narrow way of thinking.

Jesus is real, all you have to do is listen to him.

You say "listen" .. Would this be the pastor at the local evangelical convention (who has his book stand int he back, adio books included, and a donation plate to save your soul)

I would think a Muslim would think different then you.. as would a Jew, as would anyone who just so happens to be a non Christian. Which there are far more non Christians then Christian.

He will respond, all you have to do is ask. Although he won't reveal himself completely because he wants you to need him and to have faith in him.

So.. wait... could this then mean that Jesus operates in a secret manor? .. Does he him self have a secret society?

I don't know how to explain that I hear Jesus.

I have a few medical books that can.

I don't mean by hearing his physical voice but I look to him for answers and he responds in various forms. Open your hearts and you will feel his presence.

Worry about your own salvation, I will worry about my own apparent damnation.

If I could just get through to only one person on this board to get them to change their mind about Freemasonry then that would be great!

I have a feeling you will only be turning people away from your own faith. A Zealot who only sees his way of thought as being correct and wishes to ram faith down someones throat oddly enough is a turn off.

Only Jesus can save us though for we are all bound by sin but you have to accept him in your heart and speaketh with your tongue.

Your personal actions will save you. And who uses words like "speaketh" ..

Please abandon Freemasonry and quit mocking him!

If your God will damn me for being a Mason I will choose damnation my friend. Religion is a tyrant on personal faith.

I'm not here to judge you

No? .. Then whats all this ...

If your a Mason Jesus will damn you .. yada yada, something about Jesus talks to me .. yada yada .. your all lost souls or something or other..

Sounds like judging.

I'm only here to help spread the word.

Of ignorance.

Jesus is the only one who can help us along in our path toward the goal.

Sometimes.. and I know this is off topic .. but sometimes I get the feeling that Christianity is NOT a Monotheistic religion .. no, sometimes I get the distinct feeling it is a Polytheistic. Certainly sounds like worship to me anyways.

But anyways.. guess I am a bad person.. should feel ashamed of my self.. just an evil Mason without Jesus. It's all funny to me, not being Christian.. and I find it ironic for all of you Christian Masons, as.. you ARE Christian and apparently still your damned!

I didn't say that you were evil and I didn't say that you were damned. I am not the all mighty one so that is not up to me. I simply said you are mis-directed. And sorry, there are no medical books that can explain how I communicate with Jesus. I can only tell you that he is real and that you too, can communicate with him.

And as far as donations go, I have no problem with them because it helps the church to continue to spread the word. And let's face it, it's far better then being obligated to fork over a bunch of dough to a masonic brotheren because he was kicked out of his apartment, per say.

Your last post verifies one thing, that "the craft" contradicts the Holy Bible.

Originally posted by Duolos
Red....I love your supermarket analogy and think I will try one of my own

....I liken it to other "neutral" situations....bank, carwash, or say amusement park...to enter these places there is no pre-requisite (other than money). The services that these places provide are fairly general and certainly without controversy. But I would take issue if the supermarket said you can enter, but you must believe in A god...any god will do, and each time before you leave we will share with you how to fly by flapping your arms up and down and jumping into the air. Based upon what I believe to be true, any god will not do...and just as I know for a fact that no matter how many times I jump or how fast I flap my arms, I will not take flight, I believe just as fervantly that one can do good, but can never "be good" apart from God. And if you do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, you are apart from God....

Hi again, Duolos

When you say "any god will do...", consider the following:

Masonry is not a religion and does not teach anything about religion. It is simply a society which strives to make good men better men through moral lessons, through the emotional support of his brothers etc.

A man cannot become the best man that he can be, if he does not believe in God. Masonry understand this, and hence the requirement. Whether he is a Christian or a Muslim, if he believes in God, he is much more likely to become the best man that he can be than someone who does not believe in God. But it is not a religion, and does not teach or preach any religion.

[edit on 5/11/2007 by Saurus]

Well one thing is for sure. There is no blood line.

Duolos,

You've received several responses and I hope you can see that Masonry is a little different depending on who the poster is...so I'm only going to post a thought I had while reading the others.

Masonry provides a venue for men of various religions to come together and share comraderie - on another note it also allows men of different social, monetary, and education levels to meet together in a fairly open setting.

Freemasonry requires that every member believe in a monotheistic God. As God is a title in this sense and not a particular being then there is no direct conflict between the religions represented in the Lodge room. Freemasonry requires each to have a God in the same way that the US Constitution requires a President. It doesn't matter who has the title; just that you believe "someone" is attached to that title.

Freemasonry does not say who holds the title - just that "someone" does. Thus, when a Christian, an Islamist, a Jew, a Hindu, etc. stand side-by-side to pray each prays to the "entity" attached to the title of God.

We both know that the title of "God" is not the name of the entity represented by the Christ, Jesus of Nazareth.

Anyway, the idea is that God is required, but God himself (or as some would say: herself) is left for the individual to determine.

As a Christian this may or may not represent an irreconcilable position. If it does; then it does and you will probably never find nor convence a Mason that there is a problem.

Some even have difficultly understanding how this could ever pose a serious question to be asked, but I do understand as it appears too wishy-washy when compared to scripture. That's because Freemasonry was not designed nor implemented to be a rigid structure for belief or even to direct its members in that way. Scripture was written to relay rules, laws, and ideas that aren't to be questioned - making it difficult for Masonry to provide clear and concise answers.

I'm hoping I added an extra point of thought and not some confusing malarky. If anyone would like me to clarify please send me a a U2U or an e-mail [email protected].

And Duolos it sounds like you are far more concerned with your ex-husband's spiritual and social outlook than you are with Masonry. Perhaps you should investigate that further and consider Masonry to be a different aspect. Also, as someone who attended various Youth Group meetings (at my church) from the time I was 8 or so until I graduated high school perahaps DeMolay would be an adequate substitution if your ex-husband is unwilling to participate in a church to your liking. DeMolay teaches a great deal of the many principles associated with what a good Youth Group will teach...without the implied cynism towards church teaching in our society.

Edit for type-o.

[edit on 6-11-2007 by lukesaysmoo]

i think it really matters whether or not you interpret the bible literally. Many of these masonic "rules" (for lack of a better word at this moment) are metaphorical, like the celestial lodge in the sky.

But, if you think that adam and eve were real people, and that god made the world in seven days... then it's quite a different conversation.

Originally posted by spirit7
I think that Freemasonry would be ok if they took all of the religion and secrecy out of it. This is why I think you Masons are only mocking the Holy Bible but do not know of what you do.

There is nothing secret about Jesus and he is all that you need.

Meanwhile the church/Vatican is the biggest secret holder in history!!

What about the conclave when a pope dies why does that have to be in private?

Don't you think there is some super power struggle going on there when they all try to one up each other to be the most powerful man in the eyes of the Catholics.

Talk about having money and power and influence.

You say there is nothing secret about Jesus that might be true but the people who control his history seem to be rewritting it all the time to fit their needs.

i think that the free masons are just a brotherhood or order that are seemingly have some conspiracy, but they dont, and i thought you had to be 18 or 21 to join.

You cannot refer to the Holy Spirit as a "supreme being". That is just not right.

As far as God not being an appropriat title for the Holy Spirit is just nonsense, and so is the thought of God being a woman. Jesus Christ clearly confessed to his father in heaven (which turned out to be him only using the son as an example for all to understand).

I pray for the Freemasons all of the time because they have been mis-directed onto another path, a path far away from God, the Holy Spirit (not a supreme being).

I think that Freemasonry would be ok if they took all of the religion and secrecy out of it

And there are many that believe your statement is just as true if you replace
"Freemasonry " with "christianity".

There is nothing secret about Jesus

What about the missing years? What about his place of birth?

There is no blood line.

are you sure? please provide substantiated evidence of your theory.

reply to post by spirit7

You cannot refer to the Holy Spirit as a "supreme being". That is just not right.

Technically its no different then Hinduism .. while they have hundreds, thousands of Gods.. they are all believed to be an aspect of the one true God..

The Holy Spirit is said to be an aspect of God, in reality this came from the beliefs probably within Zoroastrianism as the religion was diffused within the Persian Empire into Jewish territories..

But the Holy Spirit is not an individual or deity within its self, so its not a Supreme Being, but I honestly doubt that many Christians actually understand the relationship of so many aspects of Christianity within their own religion.

Jesus on the other hand I would consider somewhat to be a Supreme Being, he was, if you follow the theology of it, half God, half mortal born to a mortal woman.. not an actually incarnation of God himself, depending on your interpretation. The fact that Jesus is worshiped to the point almost more then God, he is imo a God. You can say of course hes just an aspect of God, but I could say are we not all aspects of God? .. Catholics revere Marry to be, imo, a semi God as well, obviously worshiped far more then an average mortal, and giving birth to the son of a God is no small feat.. but I find it ironic as the Bible its self has few, very few references to Mary, where as the Quoran has many references to Mary.

and so is the thought of God being a woman.

Interesting. Any reason why? .. As far as I have read, the Bible never actually says God is a Man? ..

Jesus Christ clearly confessed to his father in heaven (which turned out to be him only using the son as an example for all to understand).

He was his own Father. Why say hes the Son of God then. Why not say "I am God" .. Why does he call forth to his Father, him self, for so much? .. Makes no sense to me, Christianity is very much borderline Polytheistic.

Aside from that, Juda society of the Hebrew was a Matriarch society, within the home and in personal social life the female was revered above the male. As a historic perspective the reason there is no reference to Joseph is that when a child is born, the male is sent away for twelve years, and the child is brought up by the woman of society.

Patriarchal societies existed as well, the largest ever known happened to be the Roman Empire, from which the Bible was created...

Ah yes, the Bible is a collaboration dated a few hundred years AFTER CHRIST DIED. The reason many beliefs of Christianity cannot be traced back to its original origins aside from its fundamentals being Jewish, is because it is a Mutt of a religion .. aspects of Romanism, Germanic, Celtic, Zoroastrianism and countless other religions combined into one. The Romans dictated that Christianity would be a Patriarchal religion, and the Patriarch is the Pope, the Holy Father.

In early Rome, beneath the city streets and temples, where Christianity flourished the original leaders of the Church where most likely Priestess woman, and Priest, but not specifically Priest.

A perfectly good example of a MAJOR aspect of Christianity deriving from an outside Pagan source is the date of Christmas. If you follow the Bible Jesus was born at a time when shepherds were with their sheep while they where lambing .. this happens only one time of the year ... mid to late spring. Yet we celebrate it on December 25th? Many early Christian sects believed Jesus was born, and died on March 25th, however the Dec. 25th date coincides with many Pagan religion observances within the same time span, the Winter Solstice. Richard II in 1377 made December 25th Christ's birthday. 1377 years after the fact.

I pray for the Freemasons all of the time because they have been mis-directed onto another path, a path far away from God, the Holy Spirit (not a supreme being).

I pray for blind men who use religion and their faith as a form of oppression and bigotry.

You're not listening. I said he had to call out to the father so he can be used as an example so that they would understand. He was God.

reply to post by Rockpuck


And I bet that you probably think it's possible that God, when he was Jesus, had sex to, don't you?

Well I am here to tell you that was not possible. God was on a mission to save men from their sins.

From all of the posts that I am seeing, the real reason for your secrecy is that you don't believe the bible to be true. It's quite frankly, pathetic. Why don't you want to believe in him? You need him you know.....He will step back if you want him to but you still need him.

reply to post by spirit7

And I bet that you probably think it's possible that God, when he was Jesus, had sex to, don't you?

If he was truly man, and if he was honestly a Jew like he claimed, he did have children. He said he was a Rabi, well friend, in those days Rabi's HAD TO HAVE KIDS .. Other wise they could not fulfill all duties to Yahweh. The book never said anything about yes he had sex, no he did not have sex. That again is Rome speaking to you, not early Judea.

Well I am here to tell you that was not possible. God was on a mission to save men from their sins.

You say its not possible simply because you don't want it to be true. I can also imagine that the earth is the center of the galaxy and all revolves around her. Does that mean its true? Speculative history says other wise to the Bible, which is an allegory taken literally misconstruing the teachings.

Aside, He became a preacher when he was... in his 30's correct? .. So we have 1-12 missing, no information then 12-30 missing. No information. I suppose he spent all that time knelt before an alter to Yahweh no? .. Or providing for his clan more likely.

From all of the posts that I am seeing, the real reason for your secrecy is that you don't believe the bible to be true.

Spot on chief, I am not a Christian. Though that is not a "reason for my secrecy" as.. that doesn't even make since. You could have just said "from your post it appears your not a Christian" .. nothing to do with "secrecy" .. Then I suppose you could say because I am not a Christian I cannot speculate on the Bible.. being brought up Catholic, the originators of the current belief system (regardless of what Protestants think) and I studier of the religion I think I have MORE input to the histories then one who blindly accepts some kind of misconstrued belief.

Of course, had you not been pushing your beliefs on OTHERS I would let your beliefs slide and not comment, but since you demonized others for not following you, you can be demonized for your own beliefs.

It's quite frankly, pathetic.

I personally think the same thing. How ironic, huh?

Why don't you want to believe in him?

Why should I? I love the teachings Christianity offers, as I do Judaism and Islam, but to follow it the way current Christians do is out side of my.. comfort zone. I found another religion that better suits my own needs with out the oppressive dogma and conversion of others, pressing a personal belief system onto others is the most ignorant act you can do.

You need him you know

Trust me mate, I get along quite fine actually, all the beer and sex I want

He will step back if you want him to but you still need him.

"he" who is "he" and no, he wont, because I openly reject "him". To hell I go with 4.5 billion of my fellow pagans and non believers.

"I found another religion that better suits my own needs with out the oppressive dogma and conversion of others, pressing a personal belief system onto others is the most ignorant act you can do. "

Oh yeah? I'm curious now. What religion might that be?

""he" who is "he" and no, he wont, because I openly reject "him". To hell I go with 4.5 billion of my fellow pagans and non believers. "

4.5 billion of your "fellow" non-believers. What society are you speaking of?

I sense I am getting warmer.


[edit on 10-11-2007 by spirit7]

reply to post by Rockpuck


Don't tell me that you are one of those believers in the Davinci Code (sigh).

So what is so sacred about Geometry?

Originally posted by spirit7
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

And I bet that you probably think it's possible that God, when he was Jesus, had sex to, don't you?

Well I am here to tell you that was not possible. God was on a mission to save men from their sins.

From all of the posts that I am seeing, the real reason for your secrecy is that you don't believe the bible to be true. It's quite frankly, pathetic. Why don't you want to believe in him? You need him you know.....He will step back if you want him to but you still need him.

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

Sounds like Spirit7 is happy with his beliefs and doesn't want to see anything but one side of the story so let him be happy in his own ignorance.

Let's not ruin his fantasy about a perfect world