Originally posted by Tuning Spork
Don't forget, though, he's been associated with Hoagland for well over 11 years now.

Good point and the book was four years in the planning...

So why don't we all go to Enterprise Mission's site or M Bara's blog and request they join in the discussion? I mean I am sure the members at ATS would all behave civilly and it would be a fantastic debate...

Then we could all stop 'guessing' or dismantling someones character when there is no defense

Just a thought...

Originally posted by Matyas
This whole fiasco is spin to discredit findings of Lunar anomalies everywhere.

The book is probably more over sensationalized propaganda with purposeful disinfo scattered throughout by cointel and spook country agents.

See how they do protest since we started to call into question the status quo of belief. You will see a lot more stunts like this as our influence catches on.

I am glad someone pointed that out The reaction that this thread got on day one tells me there is certainly a LOT of interest in the issue.

But you are correct after this it will be even more difficult to sort out which 'anomalies' are worth investigating or which are deliberate misdirection...

Score 1 point for their side

Hi, Zorgon!

Where is Johnston's character being "disassembled"?

Let's see, Dark_Mission alleges that the U.S. space program is run by superstitious, murderous Nazis who have defrauded the entire world -- and its scientists -- for half a century, through lies and intimidation and various malignant tricks...

..and when one of their chief witnesses turns out to have a "PhD 'deploma' " that doesn't check out, and somebody shares reports of an investigation into that claim and others that are supposed to validate his credibility, and find it might just not be so --

Whoa! We are treated to whining about nasty character assassination and personal attacks....

Isn't that a trifle hypocritical from the Hoaglandites?

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, as the con artists say. And by all means, NEVER question our claims for documentation -- that's so unFAIR....

Originally posted by JimO
Whoa! We are treated to whining about nasty character assassination and personal attacks....

Did I say all that? perhaps 'dissected' would be better. It is obvious that you have an anti Hoagland agenda... I just think in the interest of 'fair play' one should hear what the other side has to say... If they chose not to participate so be it...

Naturally if credentials are represented it is fair to examine those credentials... and it is obvious human nature dictates that we will always show our personal biases no matter the topic... but name calling really... isn't that a little childish?

Isn't that a trifle hypocritical from the Hoaglandites?

I have been called many things but that is a first... and shows how little you me

Originally posted by JimO
This is getting nowhere.

As we say in Texas, "You show 'em books, and you show 'em books, and all they do is chew on the covers."

I find this an unusual comment... and confusing... John was showing copies of pages from books to back his claims...

Am I to assume by this remark that information from books is not a valid source? That would be strange coming from someone who makes a living writing...

But perhaps I misunderstood your comment

So what should we be expecting from Ken & Hoagland in the future? This doesn't seem to be getting the publicity it should be getting here in the U.S. Any plans for a conference here in the states?

Originally posted by johnlear
How about explaining this photo of Aristarchus?

I know I'm going off topic, here (appologies, but this has been a peeve of mine for a few months now), but that looks like a bright crater with bright ejacta to me.

John, could you do us the favor (since my account wont allow me anymore sizable photo uploads without nearly depleting my ATS points) of flipping that photo 180 degrees and posting it again?

Thanks!

Originally posted by Tuning Spork

John, could you do us the favor (since my account wont allow me anymore sizable photo uploads without nearly depleting my ATS points) of flipping that photo 180 degrees and posting it again?

My pleasure. When I flipped it I can just barely see the Helium 3 dripping out of the bottom on my copy but it doesn't come out very well on the photo I am posting.

Thank you, John. Love it.

And, if I've got you figured out at all, you're a true card in the bestest sense of the word. Whether you know it or not.

No offense taken and none offered. Just ease up on the insults, eh? I've figured out how to take them from you (by considering the source [yes, I mean that in more than one way] ), but some others haven't yet. Keep that in mind.

And that's still a photo of a crater and it's accompanying ejecta, not a dome of some kind.

See ya 'round the threads, my surprisingly pleasantly accomodating loyal opposition.


[edit on 2-12-2007 by Tuning Spork]

Originally posted by zorgon
We can probably expect more of the same... but I really was hoping for just one nice 'new' picture showing something fantastic...

I ask because I thought this was gonna be big news. So far, it seems Russia is the only country that has gotten a taste of this promised disclosure. I was just wondering if that was the end of it, or is there more to come?

Here is the head just enlarged from the original

Here it is folks, the head that Hoagland has named "Data's Head", in its totally un-retouched version...





This one is the Hoagland "Turkey"...



Well we found some really interesting items in that area...

The Vase... well that was what I first saw... but there is a cube in here too, and the bluish cross like object on top...



The Cube #1... Speaking of cubes... I like this one... it too is a lighter bluish color..



The Cube #2... now THIS one intrigues me... very bluish cube... and little spheres arranged in a pattern...



continued...

wow wow good jop

They still look like rocks to me.

And, no, I am not being paid by some nefarious entity to say that.





[edit on 3-12-2007 by Tuning Spork]

Not to be a negative Nancy, here...

I've been reading thru the latest posts between Tuning Spork and Zorgon.

While I admire what Zorgon has contributed, it is voluminous...some of the recent pics on THIS thread are not convincing, in my humble opinion.

What I am particulary opposed to is any reference to 'YouTube'. I am sorry, but I have found most of the 'posters' on YouTube' (not all, mind you, just most..) to be adolescents who think it's funny to post the most outrageous stuff, and get a laugh out of the response.

Yes, I know...it's not all BS on YouTube. Just some of it.

Decide for yourselves....

Weedwhacker, you addressed us specifically,
yet I'm not sure what the question is...

Originally posted by Tuning Spork
Sorry that your comments at Bad Astronomy went into "moderation" and were never seen again.

And that is why the Bad Astronomy forum will stay bad.

JO:

I see you are jumping through hoops to answer my posts. If you could so kindly for one brief instant stop being helpful to the Hoaglandites, maybe you could get around to pointing me the way out of this backwater* planet.

Because I know you know. Ya know?

*(Actually I really love her, its just that the present tenants turned her into a slum.)

Here's why Johnston's credentials and credibility are central to Dark_Mission's theme:

Dark Mission -- The Secret History of NASA
Richard Hoagland and Mike Bara
Feral House publishers, 2007
pp. 144-148


Johnston later moved [to the LRL].. Ken’s key function was as ‘supervisor of the data and photo control department’ This was the section of the LRL that handled all of the photographic and written documentation related to Humanity’s first returned pieces of the Moon; after processing elsewhere in the Lab, the films and samples also went through Johnston’s office for cataloguing and long term storage.

Johnston explained that, as head of the LRL photo lab, it was his responsibility to catalog and archive ALL of the Apollo photographs. As part of the archiving process, the LRL eventually developed four complete sets of Apollo orbital and hand-held photography, comprising literally tens of thousands of first-generation photographic negatives and prints.

nip>

...[I]n 1972, near the end of the manned lunar program. Johnston was called into the office of Ben Laskawa, Johnston’s lead at the LRL records division. At the meeting, Laskawa told Johnston that orders had come down from NASA headquarters (through Dr. Michael Duke, Laskawa and Johnston’s NASA boss) to destroy all of the copies of the original NASA photography that he had been protecting and archiving for the past several years. Johnston was dumbfounded that anyone could order the destruction of the official record of Mankind’s first venture beyond the earth. He protested, and begged to be allowed to donate the photographs to various universities or foundations, but was told there was ‘no chance’. The orders were explicit -- he was to destroy all four sets of the literally ten of thousands of Apollo lunar photographs taken by the astronauts.

Johnston found this situation unconscionable. Eventually, after further protests, he relented and destroyed three full sets of the data -- but with his guilt eating away at him, he decided to save one complete set ‘elsewhere’. Some of the images and negatives he kept for himself. However, since the collection was so vast, he eventually decided to donate the rest to his alma mater, Oklahoma City University, where the data quietly resided -- out of NASA’s oversight -- for over thirty years...

Hoagland was saddened and repelled, all at the same time, by the whole tragic affair. That the extremely limited number of high-quality, first or second generation copies of the unique photographic record of Man’s first voyages to the Moon could be so blithely -- so deliberately -- destroyed, and by an official NASA order, infuriated him almost beyond words. Obviously, after years of looking at the remaining database... Hoagland finally had his ‘smoking gun’. He was now totally convinced of a deliberate Apollo coverup of ET artifacts -- coming officially from NASA headquarters in Washington, DC.

A careful study of Ken’s surviving photographs reveal overwhelming evidence that Hoagland’s darkest fears -- about ‘deliberately concealed lunar artifacts’ -- were definitely well-founded...