F-22 superior?

reply to post by kilcoo316


Any machine be it, car, motorcycle, plane, comes down to who's in controlling it, right? I heard a Dutch pilot flying an f-16C took out an F-22 in a mock sortie. The planes may be perfect, but none of these planes have ever have seen combat. What about Russia's pilot core? From what I've read, it's the most intense in the world...

Guessing games are fun to some people, but they drive me crazy. I'm going to bow out.

[edit on 6-11-2007 by DeadFlagBlues]

reply to post by DeadFlagBlues


You really need to check a "fact" like that before posting.

Here are the links to to the threads that cover these topics and raise some good questions that need to be answered before you consider the "mock shoot down" even valid.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
The RAF's Typhoon radar detects the "stealth" of the Raptor. Superior? As far as I've seen, maybe. I watched a video of an f22 doing flips at what seemed to be standstill speeds. I don't think the F22 is superior, but better, obviously a little bit, probably a lot less than America hoped.

A generic post of it detects stealth and I watched a video isn't going to cut it for proof of the EFTs superioity over the F-22. I'm impartical my airforce doesn't fly either of these planes but they both are interesting to me in their own way. The EFT is not a push over and if the F-22 pilot made a mistake I'm sure the favour would go to the EFT. But! when you look at the plane minus the pilot which is the question its who has the best chance bfore the pilot straps into the seat. In a way its looking at things in comabt like you would if it where a UCAV.

reply to post by Canada_EH


Did I say superiority? No, I said comparable. And the video, if you read, was referring to the ultimate maneuverability of the F-22, not the European Fighter. Every single report I've ever read they were very comparable with a nod to the F-22/F-35. Also, let me clear one more thing up.. I never once claimed or even attempted to state anything for fact. I'm being very general in my claims this early on for the sake and continuity of discussion. It would be more constructive to add to the conversation, instead of trying to drive home your point through misread statements and improper syntax.

Edit: 4 R3@lZZ.

[edit on 6-11-2007 by DeadFlagBlues]

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
Any machine be it, car, motorcycle, plane, comes down to who's in controlling it, right?

And so...?

We are talking about the machines, not the pilots...

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
I heard a Dutch pilot flying an f-16C took out an F-22 in a mock sortie.

Never heard of it, but I'll not dispute it...

I'm sure Westy & Co will - probably pointing out that F-22s never go against foreign airforces at red flag etc.

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
The planes may be perfect, but none of these planes have ever have seen combat. What about Russia's pilot core? From what I've read, it's the most intense in the world...

Eh?


The Russian airforce is improving from the 90s, but they are still a LOOONNNGGG way short of being where they need to be in terms of machines and training.

reply to post by kilcoo316


So who are on top? The USAF and the RAF?

reply to post by DeadFlagBlues


Story is, I always wanted to be a pilot ever since I was a little kid. I used to go with my uncle to every air show. He worked at an Airforce base and would tell me all the details about the planes.. I've lost sight of knowing everything about them, and that's why I jumped in. Get out of my comfort zone and start learning about these amazing machines again. I'm not coming in here with a swinging # or anything... My questions I'm asking aren't rhetorical by any means.

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues

So who are on top? The USAF and the RAF?

Ooohhh - that is a big question...


The USAF, the USN, the RAF, the IAF and the IDF would all have serious claims to being on top in terms of pilot training.

reply to post by kilcoo316


If I wasn't so stupid and shortsighted in my decisions, I could have probably found out... I tried to join the Airforce with an 82 on my ASVAB, and they found out I had an assualt on my record and wouldn't allow me, though the Marines would have signed me up in a heartbeat. One of the worst days of my life...

reply to post by DeadFlagBlues


Coming out swinging and with general posts and you wonder why I replied to the post and you give me cr@p for doing it? Come on. I'm not trying to make a enemy but I would like a bit less swinging and a bit more research thats all. Its kool that your trying to get back into aviation and uptodate and the like. The key though for this forum is providing links to back up statements. So I guess the thing to do would of been link the video of the F-22

[edit on 22/08/06 by Canada_EH]

reply to post by Aim64C


Interesting analysis and I did have to put more thought into it that I usually do in the Av. forum kudos.

However, several of the exersizes (I claim no special insights on the craft other than what in open source) have shown the F-22 to be sitting up at 60-70K and using its radar to not only vector and deconflict other fighters but to pick out small targets at even treetop level and either fire off an AMRAAM or even drop down and get a gun kill.

I agree with you that tactics are everything, but I would also speculate that the F-22 will avoid a force on force dogfight at all costs, and leverage other sensors like E-3's and other a/c's data streams to avoid being active. There is alot of talk about the LPI status of the AESA but I think it is just that talk but the ability to integrate other data streems will make all of the difference

Given the speed, stealth, weapons load and manuverability the F-22 is unlike any other a/c in the skies today. It may have been a cold war design for one mission only, but has shown and is showing it can do other tricks. Esp the AESA radar systems.

reply to post by FredT


I'm correct in thinking that what you are describing is what the F-22 pilots are calling the Gods eye view of the battlefield correct? Sometimes it boils down to who has the best info to get in the best postion for the first contact for the first shoot. When its all about being first the more info the better.

[edit on 22/08/06 by Canada_EH]

Originally posted by Aim64C

And, if I'm in a 16 - I'm keeping it on top of the trees and subsonic. We have some good missiles - but if he wants to get me - he's going to have to come down and play in the dirt with me - and the 22 is too heavy to be of any real match for something like a 16 or an 18 keeping tucked into the ground.

I'm wondering what you have to back that up? Say he does come down to play then what? Its not like you in your F-16 are at a even playing field with the raptor. Sure maybe you have forced his hand into a to a flush instead of a royal flush but the out come is the same againest a pair (sorry too much poker jks). Frankly the F-22 pilot can stay at altitude and wait till you pop up and nail you or you can run home and he basically has still completed his mission of keeping you out of the way. Kilcoo and you are right the Raptor isn't great at multi role but it does do A2A extremelly well (in theory).

The same old claims of superiority long after they were dispelled as mostly myth with the price tag ensuring that the added capabilities were not competitive on a per dollar basis. I hate to address so many responses in this way but these types of threads makes we want to resume my pages and pages of responses just to keep the same old people on their toes? Isn't it easier and less time consuming to just inspect our claims and thus avoid getting into drawn out 'debates' where the 'fanatic' on the other side refuses to stop disagreeing? I hate to be that 'fanatic' but if this keeps up i wont be able to 'control' myself for much longer!

Come on guys!

Stellar

reply to post by Canada_EH


You didn't even read it, smarty. You railed me for things I never said. The issue aren't my claims, it's you not being able to comprehend a paragraph and than aggresively replying to points that are irrelevant because I DIDN'T SAY THEM.

I may be just getting into military technology, but I'm not in the minor leagues, son. Read next time.

reply to post by kilcoo316


They're not foreign air forces at Red Flag. The Dutch have sent their pilots to Luke AFB in AZ for years to train in USAF F-16s. One of the things that used to make me laugh was that they were being trained to fly an F-16 but weren't old enough to buy a beer after a mission.