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F-22 superior?

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posted on Oct, 31 2007 @ 05:54 PM
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First post ever.

Ladies and Gents,

I have been following this site for approx. 2 weeks now. I have read both amazingly insightful post and some completly homeristic post. In multiple topics I have read both sides of the F-22 superiority debate. But these have been patchworked from multiple topics. As I watch 2 of these amazing aircraft fly overhead (I live in Anchorage Alaska) I want an overall opinion.

F-22- Too many eggs in one basket that is not that great of a leap over americas enemys current technology

Or is this the aircraft (along with the JSF) that define the generation ala the F-14, 15, 16, and 18 series from yesteryear?




posted on Oct, 31 2007 @ 06:15 PM
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Hey AlaskaJoe. I live in Fairbanks and we have some F22s here right now for about a month. They have been flying around today....they were hoping for some "cold" weather...but it is pretty warm up here right now...25 ! LOL

Anyways, I dont know a lot about them, but will look forward to reading other's responses!

[edit on 31-10-2007 by greeneyedleo]



posted on Oct, 31 2007 @ 06:19 PM
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Greenie,

Yea its a bitter 45 down here (global warmong?:duh


I brought this subject back up because as I was watching them fly, I remembered back to the success that they had during the red flag excercises up there this last spring. Do you happen to remember what there kill ratio was? I do know that against F/A-18 Sperbees and F-15c and e's it was absolutely rediculous and that they didnt lose a single plane.



posted on Oct, 31 2007 @ 07:27 PM
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I was just watching a program on the best strike aircraft the other night on Discovery Channel. One point they made is the fact that all of the next gen fighters are so inherently unstable( seems that computer controls are a must now).
I would like to see a joint exercise with the F-22 and the Euro-Fighter to see where they both stand against each other and whether the claims that the Euro-Fighter can perform dog-fight maneuvers while supersonic are true(be a real kick in the pants to the pilot if he/she could stay conscious lol)



posted on Oct, 31 2007 @ 07:32 PM
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Hi all,

If you head across to the Aircraft Projects forum, you'll find a lot of past and present discussion regarding the F-22, as well as discussions on aircraft, aviation and air combat in general.

Alaskajoe, welcome to ATS!



posted on Oct, 31 2007 @ 07:50 PM
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Yeah, maybe a mod can bump this thread down there. Once down there, you will see many people help you out on any questions you may have!

As Willard pointed out, there is a vast archive of information in the aircraft forums, check it out!

Welcome to ATS man.

Shattered OUT...



posted on Nov, 1 2007 @ 09:26 AM
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I think the F22 just has its stealth. Other than that it isnt really that much better. This also means that in the future say 15-20 years from now that the F22 stealth may actually be too low to give an advantage but then again that is the fate of every stealth aircraft.



posted on Nov, 4 2007 @ 11:01 PM
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The issue with the F-22 is that after the contract was awarded to Lockheed-Martin for the ATF - the need for an air superiority fighter dropped through the floor because of the collapse of the USSR. So - Lockheed decided they needed to try and market other attributes for this aircraft - trying to make it as appealing as the F-15E. "Let's stick pylons on the side so it can carry bombs and more missiles!" "And we need to modify the heck out of the munitions bay to fit a tiny JDAM enabled bomb in there!" - Which drove up the cost and made the poor, inferior bird (F-23 beat the living heck out of it when it came to performance, range, observability (stealth), and operational diversity).

So... now we have this ridiculous chimera of marketing as the product for the F-22. When, we should have stuck with the original plan - which was an air superiority fighter with low-observable characteristics that would be followed up with a supporting strike aircraft to replace the F/B-111 (the Navy could really use one of those - quick monkeying around with the JSF and F-22) - also with low observable characteristics and supercruise.

Although, yes, it is "superior" to other aircraft out there. However, were I to equip the F-16 with the most modern radars out there and the hardware, firmware, and software - I could make a platform that could handle its own against the F-22.

But, if you want an example of a superior aircraft - look at the B-52. The bird adapts to the world, is rather straight-forward - maintenance wise, and will serve the U.S. for dang near a century according to the current plan. However, I expect it will still be flown in the year 2100. It might be modified a little - but that's what the plane does - it adapts. And that is why it is, in my opinion, a superior aircraft. It is/was effective, it's adaptive, and it's simply there when you need it. I know guys who have looked through maintenance logs to find that their grandfather worked on the airplane they are presently working on. It's not just a plane - it's a legend and a symbol of American Air Power.



posted on Nov, 4 2007 @ 11:06 PM
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reply to post by Aim64C
 


I agree with you on the B-52, however, even a F-16 Block 60 with AESA would pretty much be meat for an F-22 given the advantages stealth has.



posted on Nov, 5 2007 @ 12:22 AM
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Nothing stealths like a good ol' chunk of dirt between you and your opponent.

Also, upgrading the avionics of an F-16 would include upgrading RWR components. Doesn't matter how stealthy you are or how you dance your radar around - if you're active, you can be found. So, for the F-22 to really take proper use of its low observable design, it would need to work closely with AWACS. And nothing quite shows up on RWR like that nice, big, juicy radar those planes carry around. You know they've found you - and you know to expect company. Only problem with that - you don't know the bearing of the 22s like you would if the 22s were illuminating you.

And, if I'm in a 16 - I'm keeping it on top of the trees and subsonic. We have some good missiles - but if he wants to get me - he's going to have to come down and play in the dirt with me - and the 22 is too heavy to be of any real match for something like a 16 or an 18 keeping tucked into the ground.

Of course, if you meet them out in the plains or over the ocean - you'll have to start singing every tune you can while popping chaff/flares like it's Homecoming and hope he runs out of missiles before he scores a hit. Then hope he was stupid enough to get within range of your own arsenal.

However, if the 16s are working with AWACS - those things can pick up the F-22 rather easily. The F-22 isn't nearly as low observable from a number of angles. Head-on, it's just about invisible. So, if you're burning right towards an AWACS aircraft - it likely won't know what hit it (you can remain passive as you can pick it up on RWR well before you're in the detection threshold).

That is why so much goes into planning combat operations. The greatest technology in the world can be defeated by the oldest tricks in the book. So - we have to make sure that we minimize the number of old tricks our enemies can effectively use against our own aircraft.

And that's why the Navy never bought any F-22s. It's not a versatile aircraft, and has very few advantages, in general. Come up with a low-observable aircraft with the same capabilities as the F/A-18E/F/G with supercruise - they'd be more than delighted, I'm sure. But the F-22 is a failure in the respect that it will likely not have a very long operational life and quickly be phased out by a multirole aircraft developed under the Interim bomber project.



posted on Nov, 5 2007 @ 01:50 AM
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the F22 has TVC - and so whilst it might be `heavy` it can be thrown around with the best off them

and to rate it over the super bug? please have a look about ATS aircraft forum , the issues with the super bug have been debated to death and sufice to say whilst it might the a `jack of all trades` it most certainly is the master of none!


AWAC`s detecting stealth? well maybe but but the raptor really is a special aircraft - i would but real money on one getting a guns kill on an awacs before they knew it was there tbh.


The problem with going down in the weeds is 1 of lack of options , blasting along 100 feet above the ground means you can`t ACM for at all so all it takes is for a nice solid tone and bam your in that black bag on the tarmac.


oh and the raptor radar can operate in active mode and be near undetectable - the way it works is not like conventional radar (pulsed sweeps of energy) each module has a low power output (comparitive to pulse doppler radar) so instead of 1 high power sweep you have lots of low power `beams` searching for you - others can give a better explanation- radar tech isn`t my thing.



posted on Nov, 5 2007 @ 03:02 AM
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Originally posted by Alaskajoe
F-22- Too many eggs in one basket that is not that great of a leap over americas enemys current technology



That is definitely not the case.


The F-22 will out do an F-15 in every aspect of the flight envelope, it will outdo an F-16 in every aspect apart from roll rates and roll accelerations.

It will outdo an F-18 (any version), or an F-14, or any other American aircraft in every part of the envelope.


It will outdo any Sukhoi or MiG in supersonic maneuvering, and may only give a little away at ultra low speeds where lateral thrust vectoring can make a significant impact.



edit: The YF-23 was all the eggs in one basket, the YF-22 was not - thats one of the reasons it won.

[edit on 5/11/07 by kilcoo316]



posted on Nov, 6 2007 @ 03:06 AM
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What did I see?
sooo many outdo
All thing you comp to are come from 70's
Now we should think what ATF should be not it has been.



posted on Nov, 6 2007 @ 03:13 AM
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reply to post by kilcoo316
 


Not what I hear.... Dun, dun, duuuunnnnn..

Euro Fighter.

Boooom.



posted on Nov, 6 2007 @ 07:40 AM
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Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
reply to post by kilcoo316
 


Not what I hear.... Dun, dun, duuuunnnnn..

Euro Fighter.

Boooom.


Your post is vague at best but I think I get what you are saying.

Please, name one aspect of the Typhoon that is better than the F-22. As far as I know the F-22 is faster, more agile, more stealthy, has better weapons, and has better radar. If there is something that supercedes all of this that I have missed, please state it.


Originally posted by emile
What did I see?
sooo many outdo
All thing you comp to are come from 70's
Now we should think what ATF should be not it has been.


Please Emile, name an aircraft out there that can outdo the F-22, russian or American or puerto-rican, you won't find anything.

The only aircraft that can outmaneuver the F-22 is the Su-35+ and it can only do its moves at super low speed where its basically screwed. If I slowed down to that speed in a dogfight I wouldnt care what aircraft I'm in I would rather just eject right than and there. Dogfights happen at 300 knots people!! At that speed G-limits cap turning rates.



[edit on 6-11-2007 by BlackWidow23]



posted on Nov, 6 2007 @ 08:07 AM
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reply to post by BlackWidow23
 


I agree about the rather strange post that you are replying to, quite odd. I was not confident enough about grasping his meaning to attempt a reply but I was thinking the same as you on its meaning.

However on some of your other points;



F-22 is faster


It supercruises faster, but whether it is faster overall is not kn own with any certainty as the top speeds of both are classified and always estimated at mach 2 to 2.2 so its a close call.



more agile


according to reports from the pilots who are familiar with both (USAF and RAF) this one is a mixed bag in that there are situations where the F-22 manouvres slightly better and there are others where the Typhoon is slightly better. I'd love to know what situations as the reports I read were as vague as that, probably deliberately.




more stealthy


Oh yes, absolutely loads more, no question.



has better weapons


surely only if the operator chooses the wrong ones. AIM9X and ASRAAM are pretty even are they not? the AIM 120C-7 is later than the Typhoon's current C-5 for sure but it only takes Japan to order the C-7 for it surely? Then of course the Typhoon is in line for the Meteor, a US rival for which is in early definition and intended to follow on from the AIM 120D the last I read?



and has better radar


Certainly more advanced for the moment yes, but CAESAR is already test flying so this again is something that is being addressed and is no bar to exports.

As I mentioned elsewhere the Typhoon is said by those who have flown both to be pretty much the match for the F-22 in all aspects except stealth. There are also the wonders of PIRATE to consider but most US members I have discussed this with tend to dismiss it, whether out of not fully understanding what it does or because America does not have it I do not know, but there you are.

edit to add, if the angle of my reply appears confusing it is because I thought I was replying to the thread concerning the possibility of Japan ordering the Typhoon, thats what happens when an idiot has 7 threads open at the same time


As for the main topic, yes. In overall terms the F-22 is the best there is, but to think it is absolutely in every way the best and unbeatable is a bit silly, however those areas in which it is currently the best are pretty important, if not critical, as long as the guy holding the stick is clever enough to make the most of his advantages and can, for instance, recognise an orange marker when he sees one


[edit on 6-11-2007 by waynos]



posted on Nov, 6 2007 @ 08:15 AM
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The RAF's Typhoon radar detects the "stealth" of the Raptor. Superior? As far as I've seen, maybe. I watched a video of an f22 doing flips at what seemed to be standstill speeds. I don't think the F22 is superior, but better, obviously a little bit, probably a lot less than America hoped.



posted on Nov, 6 2007 @ 08:20 AM
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reply to post by DeadFlagBlues
 





The RAF's Typhoon radar detects the "stealth" of the Raptor.


Are you sure you mean the radar, or do you mean PIRATE, which is now coming into use? (Richard Price already told me that the PIRATE is being referred to as a 'radar' so I get easily confused now.



posted on Nov, 6 2007 @ 08:31 AM
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I don't get it.... This has been talked about at length..


F22 vs. Typhoon

And I keep seeing thread after thread...



posted on Nov, 6 2007 @ 09:22 AM
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Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
Not what I hear.... Dun, dun, duuuunnnnn..
Euro Fighter.
Boooom.


Now now... read my post again.

I compared it to the teens, and the Flanker/Fulcrum.


But, since you mention the EFT, I'll cover it too.


From what I gather, in sustained performance, the F-22 wins in all areas (bar max roll rate I'd imagine), in instantaneous performance, the EFT edges it over most of the high speed flight regime, and the F-22 over the lower speed regime IIRC.


edit: My comparisons of F-22 to the EFT are from hearsay, rumour and scraps of info, the comparisons made earlier to the teen fighters are not.

[edit on 6/11/07 by kilcoo316]







 
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