There has been much made about the fact that companies are finding a HUGE shot in the arm to the bottom line by outsourcing "non enterprise critical" customer service/help desk jobs to India and a few other select countries...

While many have decried this practice as unjust and selling out for the allmighty dollar, I (quite possibly all alone) am finding it hard to disagree with this practice.

Every C.E.O. , V.P. and other top manager of ANY business has a singular TOP PRIORITY... Keep the company Alive, PROFITABLE and hopefully GROWING.

ANY company that allows its costs to outpace its competition's is on the road to ruin in a Ferrari with the throttle WIDE OPEN.

When company "A" has a payroll cost of, say 54% of gross sales and company "B", its DIRECT competitor, has a payroll cost of 34% of gross sales AND passes that 20% reduction to their customers which company do you think is going to get the market share?

WHAT end user/customer is going to pay 20% MORE to do business with company A?!

NONE of them...

REALITY is a hard thing to take in many parts of our lives but there is NO GETTING away from it.

OPEN and FREE MARKET competition is the BEST system for inovation, creation and sustainable economics on the planet.

It is my contention that America needs to get past this WITHOUT implimenting some hare brained protectionist legislation that will only serve to cripple us in the long run.

America has been through this before, we need to innovate at the TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN and create jobs at the TOP of the tech ladder. To waste our time worrying about simple functions that are easily dealt with for a couple dollars an hour elsewhere is a futile exercise in my mind. WHAT can we hope to gain from fighting for non productive, simplistic functionary tasks?!

The rest of the world WILL take these tasks from us because they are NON PRODUCTIVE maintainence and a PURE cost to the enterprise. WHY would any "for profit" concern spend more than absolutely necessary for a pure expense with NO financial return?! That is called poor stewardship.

America has always been at the forefront of innovation and at the TOP of the food chain in all things technical and requiring invention. THIS is where we need to focus, NOT on a $9.00 an hour job for a slacker.

Imagine what that 30% savings represents to a company that researches, designs and builds new products in terms of the ability to bring a new and better product to the market.

I beleive we should take some of this dividend and re-invest it in training our labor force to prepare them for the next wave of inovation this country produces.

It is woefully obvious to me that many companies are simply bound up in greed at the moment and pocketing the extra cash to make up for the horrendous losses of the late nineties and early 2000's, and that's okay to a point.

IMHO, the point is past and we MUST establish some sort of market-driven training for our displaced workers.

Bottom line, IMHO, is those who suggest we should pass laws to curb the outsourcing of simple tasks are not living in the real world. On the flip side however, those who continue to pocket the dividend of cheap labor for these tasks without re-investing in our greatest resource (our PEOPLE/Workforce) are short sighted and their greed will be the source of their demise.

PEACE...
m...

[Edited on 1-28-2004 by Springer]

""Bottom line, IMHO, is those who suggest we should pass laws to curb the outsourcing of simple tasks are not living in the real world. On the flip side however, those who continue to pocket the dividend of cheap labor for these tasks without re-investing in our greatest resource (our PEOPLE/Workforce) are short sighted and their greed will be the source of their demise.""

That is the problem..the companies dont care about anything other than $$$. The profits go into the big boss pocket, not back into the company. Trained American workers now get laid off/'let go' and are have to now do jobs that they have no interest in. Thats a good life, welcome to the new 'American Dream"

Ok I had to read that a couple times to make sure I wasn't responding from emotion.

I see you're singling out the low end service jobs most notably going to India, as in telecom. Fine, they're gone already. And if that were all, I wouldn't care.

But long since gone are the blue collar manufacturering, and going are the mid level white collar jobs like software. Certainly you know this trend for profits is pervasive or you wouldn't be defending the practice.

So I suppose I should ask where you would draw the line in the sand. What are you willing to protect of our American way of life so that everything isn't either Wallstreet or WalMart.

We're becoming a retail nation you know? Right before our eyes. We're in a REAL depression that only the middle class feels since WallStreet is doing so well selling off America piece by piece. When will it stop? Or what, rather, will stop it?

What about IT outsourcing? I think this is a huge potential problem.

Excellent points, and I partially agree.

My personal concerns would be the following,..

1-The last outsourcing round that the US has experienced does consist of support positions, but this does also include critical IT, programming, engineering, and product development jobs.

2-The US is currently also experiencing many lost jobs and high unemployment issue's, that are at best stabilizing, not decreasing in numbers as indicated by the unemployment figures that are commonly published.

3-All this while mass legal and illegal immigration from Mexico, are filling the more menial job vacancies that could be better utilized at home by the un(under)-employed in the states, until the current economy can support otherwise.

4-Agree'd that much of any 'dividends' are commonly passed on to appease shareholder's as profit's in the books, and not paid out as dividends to the shareholder's, nor...

5-...applied to opening new positions or job creation. Any productivity gains have commonly been the result of 'the same workers, working harder', in the most recent term.


While I completely understand that a company and it's customer's best interests may lie in reducing and controlling costs, without new industry sectors to fill the void left by the outsourcing of positions and services, it may appear that more 'service' related jobs are commonly all that remains.

Additionally, my personal feelings are that American companies should have self-imposed limits on the volume and rate of this outsourcing of jobs. India for example has successfully brought many positions out of the country that do not include such mundane positions, and at a very fast rate.


The old industrial age has been a mainstay in the American economy since it's inception, and is finally coming to a point where it is a lesser factor in the economy. It is the industrial Companies that are failing due to foreign competition and countries subsidizing their products which are shipped back into the US for sales, at prices that can not be matched internally.

The electronics age began to leave the states in less than half that time period, and the IT and programming industry in the information age has begun an exodus in considerably less time than that.

It should also be 'American' corporate responsability as well as responsability of the government, to at least be one step ahead, by nurturing the new industries and 'ages' prior to letting the new-industries-prior slip oversea's. IE- dont let your best (or at least current) top job 'ages' go, prior to having a new one in the wings. (industrial, electronic, information ages), as all that will be filling the 'in-between' will be menial service jobs that will be coming available, and also be filled with illegal or legal non-citizens that are more than happy to work for half the wage as the citizens need for family support.


Most importantly, much needs to be done about the education system to make it more productive in producing bright new idea's.
Without an advancing education system, limited new technolgies or industries will be born in the US.


Excellent topic!

You need to READ what my point is (with possible exception of Smirkley who seems to have "got it"). I'll give you a HINT, I stated that the point has been reached wherein the losses of the past few years have been re-couped and it is incumbant upon corporate America to REINVEST the additional capital in RETRAINING our workforce...

Skeptic: IF the IT jobs can be done by folks who will work for 1/3 of what "we" will work for they are GONE. IF the jobs can't be done by these lower paid workers they WILL be back. Obviously no company can afford incompetence anymore than they can afford a 20% cost disadvantage.

To argue about the "rich guys pocketing the money" is a moot point. The greedy will be wiped out by the innovative EVERYTIME.

Pigs get fat... Hogs get SLAUGHTERED...

PEACE...
m...

[Edited on 1-28-2004 by Springer]

Lucent is a great example of a company currently rebounding and enjoying much press and accolades for it's stock correction, with virtually no microscope on how it got there.

It's not the low end service jobs going oversea for an American icon like Lucent (ATT), it's IT software programming just like mentioned. The previous generation of upper lower and lower middle class worried about layoffs in textiles or machinery and component manufacturering. Well they are all in POVERTY now, as this new generation that enjoyed upper middle class status in the 90's worries now about the next round of layoffs.

Like they say, a child in 2004 is more likely to have his parents file for bankruptcy than divorce. I ONCE was perfectly happy to eagerly await my 401(k) returns while applauding the "hard decisions" of Wall Street... no more. Wall Street kicked my ass, and those around me too often and in too many ways.

These are potends of the end times of capitalism if it doesn't get a grip on it's own greed, for the people will not tolerate much more. I'm dead serious.

For you can almost count on every time some red faced stock pundit salivates over the latest "good news" on Wallstreet, a former executive heads to his new job as a recruiter, a former manager heads to his new job at Walmart, and a former IT director heads to his new job at Starbucks. Not to mention a former homeowner and entreprenuer logs onto ATS delving deeper into his resentment of Walstreet's perversion of the American Dream.

As a note, I was shopping for a new home a little over a year ago, and had opportunity one day to just browse around a car dealership, dreaming and planning for my replacement vehicle to occur after buying my home.

A salesman,...of course hurried,..came to my assistance.

We talked a bit, and he was most assuring that getting into a new car loan would not in any way affect my ability to purchace the home I wanted. He even offered to hold the contract until the mortgage was signed, in the event that the auto payment were to effect my affordability index. Of course I knew otherwise and told him that I will be shopping to buy only after signing a mortgage. He disapointingly and grudgingly understood and we chatted a bit about other things.


He was a former lucent sales manager who headed his department in Japan, and before becoming a slick car salesman in the states, made over $300,000 a year selling Lucent products.


He was well dressed and very articulate, while trying to earn a couple of hundred dollars commission selling a car.

I truly felt bad for him.

Originally posted by Springer
I stated that the point has been reached wherein the losses of the past few years have been re-couped and it is incumbant upon corporate America to REINVEST the additional capital in RETRAINING our workforce...

Skeptic: IF the IT jobs can be done by folks who will work for 1/3 of what "we" will work for they are GONE. IF the jobs can't be done by these lower paid workers they WILL be back. Obviously no company can afford incompetence anymore than they can afford a 20% cost disadvantage.

By condoning the actions of Wallstreet based on monetary decisions you damn us all. There is NOTHING anyone in America can do (except stock shelves and serve coffee IN AMERICA) that a PHD in India can't do for $3,000 a year. If you didn't see the 60 Minutes piece you should just to know what we're up against.

Yes it's stupid that a WalMart greeter makes 6 times what a PHD'ed software engineer in India makes but it begs the question...what would you 'retrain' Americans to do?

What can we do better or for less? The answer is nothing but become a retail nation and tourist destination. Or slaughter the hogs now before it's too late. Bush is a fat hog on the hit list. So "are you with us or against us?"

[Edited on 28-1-2004 by RANT]

Originally posted by RANT
By condoning the actions of Wallstreet based on monetary decisions you damn us all. There is NOTHING anyone in America can do (except stock shelves and serve coffee IN AMERICA) that a PHD in India can't do for $3,000 a year. If you didn't see the 60 Minutes piece you should just to know what we're up against.

Yes it's stupid that a WalMart greeter makes 6 times what a PHD'ed software engineer in India makes but it begs the question...what would you 'retrain' Americans to do?
[Edited on 28-1-2004 by RANT]

THis has NOTHING to do with "condoning" anything. It's REALITY, which as I said in my original post is hard for some of us to deal with..

You see, there is NO CHOICE in this, it's already done. The ONLY choice we have is whether or not we are going to OVERCOME it as we always have in the past.

My fear is that America has become so FAT and HAPPY that we lack the initiative and the motivation to overcome this.

Frankly, your post here doesn't do much to encourage me. The "kill us now because we are sunk" mentality is absolutely LOSER CITY.

THAT is NOT the America I know and love and it is certainly NOT the way I view challenges personally.

This is a REALITY we either must deal with or be dealt with by it. My question is WHAT will we do? Roll over and die? Rise up and CREATE?

I hope for the latter...

PEACE...
m...

[Edited on 1-29-2004 by Springer]

you should know the answer... americans will roll over, we roll over on everything else why should this be any different? there are very few fighters left in my opinion.

When there is no more middle class consumers left to buy products then we will see what the hugh corporations do then,

they may attempt to move to foreign shores to serve new markets,

but they would lose security of being located in a first world country.

Wealth redistribution on the scale being practiced by the globalists only provides MORE profits as long as there is a cheaper place to do anything. In time it will defeat itself. The lack of investment and concern for one's own citizens will harm these large conglomerates in the long run.

My business mind agrees with you 100%, Springer. The rest of me looks at the bigger picture of the overall economy and I'm having trouble figuring out how to make it work.
These "menial" jobs make up probably fifty percent of our workforce in this country as we are mostly "service based" at this point. Manufacturing has almost completely dissapeared to off shore companies in China ect.. We can't exactly train everyone to be a CEO or upper management if there is no one to manage.
You may say something along the lines of "They can manage the employees in India." except for one problem.
Those folks in India are going to figure out that American companies are paying upper management people $200K a year when they have people that can manage for $20K a year. There go the upper positions.
It's a never ending cycle that basically sells out our entire country in the long run.

Like I said, it makes perfect "business" sense. I outsource all the time. The long term implications are a bit frightening though.

Making it to the top is as much about politics as it is to do with merit thus making it less desireable for everyone to be at the top.