NEEDED: everyones theories, beliefs, facts on the bible...post here

This is my first post. I was just reading all the posts here in this topic and thought you might be interested in hearing Irvin Baxter talk about Bible prophecy. It has been really helpful for me and I was actually once an athiest. www.politicsandreligion.com On the left side where it says videos, you should give his videos a try called understanding the end time and it will show you exactly how bible prophecy is corrusponding with current events and events in history. It's really amazing. It makes the Bible seem like even though it was written thousands of years ago, the reason revelations couldn't be nderstood is because it had to be read this century with our history applied. I think everybody should watch it and at least hear his theories. It's very interesting!!! I started listening to them in my spare time (his short videos on various Bible topics) and I look forward to the new ones now.

As far as homosexuality - who are we to judge? It's none of our business what others do. What comes to my mind is when Jesus got testy with Peter for questioning him on something (on the beloved disciple) and Christ just flat out told him "WHAT IS IT TO YOU?? You follow ME."

Another great lesson for people, pastors, clergy or whoever spew out negative comments about others - remind them of the lady who was brought to Jesus because she had committed adultery. They wanted to stone her! Christ just sat down in the sand and started writing in it. It was the law to stone someone but Christ looked up at them and told them "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone." They left one by one because there wasn't a person who was without sin. He told her just don't sin anymore.

His word is of love and peace. We were spiritual creatures before clothed with garments of light. If more people would look at the commandments as spiritual laws to live by, there would be more of an intimate understanding.

Here's an example. We shouldn't commit adultery. Not because it makes someone look like a slut or a manwhore but because of what it does to our individual spirit. If my husband leaves me for a younger woman and I lay in my bed for months on end, whither down to an anorexic state - all the negative is winning. By not breaking the commandments we are mentally healthier. It's why Christ gave us the new commandment to love one another.

Like others, I'm not happy with the way the Church has handled things either for last 1700 years. Just because they have the power doesn't mean they are right.

Everyone is looking for the truth. The truth is the Holy Spirit. I could shout it from the rooftops and it would fall on deaf ears. It's the most simple method to get to the truth. It is a tangible proof. It can be felt running through our bodies. It is a physical vibration. But everyone has become so desensitized to their spirituality - they wouldn't know what it was if it bit them on the behind. I tried to get kinglizard to talk about this on his near death thread - because he has felt this vibration also, but maybe it's just too personal to talk about. I don't know. But don't give up, Jesus is the way to get as close to the light as possible.











[edit on 1-11-2007 by Myrtales Instinct]

The fundamental message running through the bible is not about religion but about a relationship with the living God. Organized religion will not get you that, only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Organized religion and denominationalism has caused more wars and destruction than any other means. If you read the scripture you will not find any denomination, only the gathering of those that truly believe. Christianity has been perverted from its original state by those that would use it to force others to believe in it.

Paul says, let us set down and reason together to see if that which is said is true. Setting and reasoning is not forcing. When I set and reason with you regarding the scriptures and sin, you will either see that what the scriptures say is reasonable or you wont. You are free to choose. It is not for me to force you in any way shape or form. My opinion of and for those that would force it upon anyone is that they are causing more harm than their perceived good.

For the OP: Here is a link to an article regarding who wrote the bible The Infinite Book

Come to your own conclusions whither it is correct or not

Originally posted by time4chg07
Womans oppression?

The bible never says to oppress women, that is something you will only hear from those who are against what the bible does teach. What the Bible does say about the marriage relationship is that there are very specific duties that each partner is to perform, which will create a harmonious relationship between the two people. Man and women that are married are of "one flesh" according to the bible, and with that in mind how can one be superior to the other?

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Eph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

The marriage relationship is very important in the bible as it is related back to Christ and his Church throughout it. Christ also held women in high regard, and this is apparent in several verses including this one:

Joh 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
Joh 12:2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.
Joh 12:3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
Joh 12:4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,
Joh 12:5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
Joh 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.
Joh 12:7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.
Joh 12:8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.

Here we see marry doing something that would be considered extremely extravagant in that time of history, and she is reproved by Judas, but then defended by Christ.

Originally posted by time4chg07
Murder, Killing for faith?

Murder is never acceptable in the Bible, and is always a sin. There is a difference between murder and other types of killing though. It is not a sin to kill someone in a just war, by example, that is not a murder. One thing to always be watchful of when thinking about these kinds of things, is that mans idea of justice, and Gods idea of justice are not the same because God is of a different perspective and station then man is. Moses learned this lesson the hard way when he challenged God about something that he felt was unjust.

Originally posted by time4chg07
Homosexuality?

Any sexual act that is done which does not have the ability to produce children is considered to be a sin in the bible. Homosexuality would fall into the category of something that cannot “be fruitful and multiply”, and thus is not a sexual relationship for the right reasons.

Originally posted by time4chg07
And if the old testament isn’t relevant because of christs crucifixtion then how come it is in the bible to begin with?

Christ said he did not come to destroy the Old Testament, but to fulfill it. He did alter/clarify a few things about it, but he never changed the important things. You must understand that much of what is in the old testament is not Gods laws, but rather Jewish Laws that were man made, and some that only apply to Jews. On some topics, the Jews went to far overboard, such as the Sabbath day, which was later clarified by Christ. The Old Testament is still part of the cannon because it shows prophecy, it is required to understand much of the new testament, it adds background history, and there is much that is still applicable in the Old Testament.

Originally posted by time4chg07
see and thats what i was wondering about...the nicean council? arent they the council that chose to put the bible together the way it is. See thats what i need to know...origins, myths...i had heard something that it was christianity was taken from Mithraism

The Nicene Council had absolutely nothing at all to do with the creation of the Bible, and that is proven historical fact regardless of what you saw in the movie “De Vinci Code”. The minutes of the meeting of the Council of Nicaea are still available, and can even be found online. The main purpose of the council was to deal with a heretical view that was entering Christianity known as Arianism. Arianism was the idea that Christ was a lesser creation of God rather then being actual God made man. That is why the Nicene Creed is very pointed on the fact that Christ was “Begotten, not made, being of one substance with the father through whom all things were made”.

If you want to know how the bible was made, then I suggest you start with reading about Polycarp. Boy, do the bible haters get mad when you bring this guy up, let me tell you! The reason being, is that he really puts a dent in their idea that the New Testament is easy to show as being put together by a political force with an agenda. Polycarp was taught by the Apostle John, the actual Apostle of Christ, and he trained someone by the name of Irenaeus. If there was ever one person who was the most instrumental about choosing what books were to be included in the New Testament, it was without a doubt Irenaeus.

One of the reasons that the Gnostics hate Irenaeus so badly is because, besides keeping the scripture on target, he also kept the Gnostic teachings of the Greeks from getting into the bible. One of his best known works is in fact called “On the Detection and Overthrow of the So-Called Gnosis”, also known as “Adversus Haereses”, or “Against Heresies”. Just incase you did not realize this, “De Vinci Code” is a fictional story which weighs heavily into Gnostic Teachings not real Christian teachings.

As to the Old Testament, it is mainly based on the Septuagint which is one of the oldest translations of the Hebrew Bible into Greek, or directly from the Hebrew Tanakh. All of these things predate the Roman Catholic Church, that many wish to accuse as having written the bible for political reasons.


[edit on 11/1/2007 by defcon5]

Views on the Bible? Well, without seemingly getting over-focused and like many who claim they are religious, but perhaps a bit lying to his/her/spacealien's self, and without me getting overly complicated and still thinking about what religion or the Bible is about, simply put:

If the world wants to get irrrational and fanatical, and perhaps to me the term is - liberal -- expect a war. That does not mean that others do not have a point of view on the Bible either, but to me, some people are just a little too fanatical in how they communicate his/her/spacealien's view. Perhaps the way to explain it is that without quoting something out of the Bible, there is no thought about what is going on in the Bible. The words can be read, but still the over-all concept is that:

Because of Exact Uncertainty, humans can not know everything and never will know everything. Therefore with some rational thought and perhaps some form of logic, there needs to be something else like a Spirit and Grace that lets humans decide better courses of existing. I like to think of it as warnings instead of fact. I like to think of the Bible as abstract and something that one can not toss away ever. The thoughts processes or the consciousness of humans due to again finding fault with evolution due to Creation that humans have to be more humble with the way that theyt think. It does not mean poor or anything else. The organization of religion nowadays is just because religion may be able to handle teaching better values than anyone else in this World.

It means that with technology in the future, any spacealien species can destroy it all in a flash or at least theirselves and perhaps a great part of existence also.

It is about having Spirit to continue on despite being or becoming depressed with it all. Is it better to have humans go on, or is it just easier to end it all? The thought processes have to be so, because it seems to be an innate nature of the way Creation was created. Of course, other people can debate it for millions of years or even billion of years but in the end, it seems as if religion is something that has to exist, whether anyone wanted to admit it to his/her/spacealien's self or not.

The errors are errors of judgment and as such because it takes perhaps more thought processes than anyone wants to admit to have time for, it still has to happen that time is taken to think about what Creation all means. It is not random and un-ordered, it is beyond that, and only un-focus brains would believe that is so. It also means that one can not get all caught up in some sort of Rapture either because every step of the way, delusional tendencies can come into play with humans as a species. Humans need careful thought that relays some of those virtue words to be included and also some of those unethical thoughts to be included, but too much or too little means that careful thinking was not being done, and other people thought that they gave Orders to people and then it became fanatic, or the thoughts became depressed, and in the end, there was no one really else out there if all humans became delusional about existence.

Humans have to learn more, and take time out to review what it is that they are learning and how it becomes part of existence without just the physical form of existence. The language still used convey that as of now as being somewhat or all of it virtual, but that is really not what is happening either, as humans can feel pain, and hurt emotionally and feel like it all is not worth nothing, when humans have to remember each second in consciousness that there is nothing else not worth existing.

TV shows even talk about Ascension and anything else and other subjects bring it up, but who really wants to take the final step because afterthat, a person who entered into some Ascension has to have that final step -- death. And then there is no more communication, if all of it becomes imagination. It takes a proof that humans can not do yet, nor science, nor with anything that humans can put as Concrete. Religion always then will be Abstract or in that sense of the word - virtual without actually being virtual and everything else without actually be nothing else and that is what the Bible and religion are about.

Separating the nonsense from the rationality that separates existence from not existing.

Lets start of with all religions in the past 6000 years have been created and twisted to keep the masses under control. Only benefiting a select few.
Just look at what the very first recorded civilisation, the Sumerians believed in, they were amazed by the "Annunhaki"(The people from the stars).The Annunhaki taught the Sumerians about many things like how we were created by the "people from the stars". Then look how twisted and evil religion has become since the time of the Annunhaki.

reply to post by SKUNK2


Really…
So how exactly does the Christian philosophy of Salvation through Grace alone allow anyone to control a Christian?

Now groups such as Rome who teach salvation through works and grace, allow control…

Originally posted by defcon5
reply to post by SKUNK2

 

Really…
So how exactly does the Christian philosophy of Salvation through Grace alone allow anyone to control a Christian?

Now groups such as Rome who teach salvation through works and grace, allow control…

It's quite simple.
You tell the masses if you do some thing wrong you go to hell, if your good you go to heaven. Thus people believe what you say through fear of eternal pain and suffering in hell
It's amazing how religion has changed since the times of Sumer, from the Sumerians worshipping(if you can even call it that) "people" from the stars, not an almighty omni-potent being.
Explain me this! How did the Sumerians know about every single planet in this solar system? And know that Sirius constelation was a doube star(Annunhaki came from here).

reply to post by defcon5



The bible says that women are not to speak in church and if they have questions to wait and ask the men at home and they are to be silent most of the time...which resembles islam in a way.


Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)

Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)

1Cr 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people.



this also is talking about killing unbelievers?

see i cannot put all my faith into the bible because of all of tihs.

It just doesnt make sense...christians want to believe the whole bible but then ignore parts like this...the whole old testament is full of bs....i mean killing homosexuals? women were pretty much property...by the way..

"If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silvers, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days." (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)

this is why i posted this thread....

i too, have been torn, spent my whole life defending the bible blindly without thoroughly looking into it..i had read it, but with a different mindset than when i read it now.

It also is crazy how close christianity is to the horus myth and mithra.

Originally posted by SKUNK2
It's quite simple.
You tell the masses if you do some thing wrong you go to hell, if your good you go to heaven. Thus people believe what you say through fear of eternal pain and suffering in hell

Actually it's not quite that simple, because what your stating is salvation through works.

Salvation through grace states that nothing I do can earn me salvation. Salvation is a free gift that was given to the world through the death of Christ, not something I have to do good for. Now as a Christian I should strive to do good, and make every attempt not to do wrong. If I do wrong, which everyone will, then I need to repent that and ask forgiveness. However, it's not the “do good, go to heaven, do bad go to hell” thing that many non-Christians have made it out to be.

The only exception to that is the Roman Catholic Church. Over the years they did use works to control the masses, and they still teach salvation through both grace and works. This was a large part of what caused the Protestant Reformation.

Originally posted by SKUNK2
Explain me this! How did the Sumerians know about every single planet in this solar system? And know that Sirius constelation was a doube star.

The same way that the Mayans knew about the center of the Milky Way, or that the sons of Seth built two pillars so the astrological knowledge, which they were aware of, did not become lost in the flood.

How this occurred is only gleaned over in the Bible; it is talked about in much more depth in the Pseudepigraphal books such as the book of Enoch. Here is the verse in the bible:

Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Here is the same verse mentioned in the “Antiquities of the Jews” by Flavius Josephus:

For many angels (11) of God accompanied with women, and begat sons that proved unjust, and despisers of all that was good, on account of the confidence they had in their own strength; for the tradition is, that these men did what resembled the acts of those whom the Grecians call giants.

And from the Ethiopic version of the book of Enoch:

S E C T I O N I I.
CHAP. 6.—And it came to pass, after the children of men had increased in those days, beautiful and comely daughters were born to them. 2. And the angels, the sons of the heavens, saw and lusted after them, and said one to another: “Behold, we will choose for ourselves wives from among the children of men, and will beget for ourselves children.” 3. And Semjâzâ, who was their leader, said to them: “I fear that perhaps ye will not be willing to do this deed, and I alone shall suffer for this great sin.” 4. Then all answered him and said: “We all will swear an oath, and bind ourselves mutually by a curse, that we will not give up this plan, but will make this plan a deed.” 5. Then they all swore together, and bound themselves mutually by a curse; and together they were two hundred. 6. And they descended on Ardîs, which is the summit of Mount Hermon; and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn on it and bound themselves mutually by a curse.

Skipping ahead a bit…
Now here is the bit specifically about what you are asking:

CHAP. 7.—And they took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in to them, and mixed with them, and taught them charms and conjurations, and made them acquainted with the cutting of roots and of woods.

CHAP. 8.—And Azâzêl taught mankind to make swords and knives and shields and coats of mail, and taught them to see what was behind them, and their works of art: bracelets and ornaments, and the use of rouge, and the beautifying of the eye-brows, and the dearest and choicest stones and all coloring substances and the metals of the earth. 2. And there was great wickedness and much fornication, and they sinned, and all their ways were corrupt. 3. Amêzârâk taught all the conjurers and root-cutters, Armârôs the loosening of conjurations, Baraq

First if there is a God who loves mankind, then how has he revealed himself to us? Is this God so weak that he has allowed his message to be distorted or hidden?

And you come to this conclusion by what method? God does not control the actions of man. Unless you are willing to suggest that we live in some sort of simulated world where we are only pawns used to play God's game, which may be the case... Otherwise, the manipulation of the bible by man for use to gain more power is not only possible, but plausible.

[edit on 1-11-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 1-11-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

reply to post by time4chg07


The first thing I need to bring up is that much of what you’re discussing here is man made rules, not necessarily the rules of God. As I said above, the Jews wrote whole books of rules beyond what is in the Bible (E.g. The Talmud), and they don’t even follow all their own rules today. So be careful about mixing up the Laws of God, and the rules and traditions of men. Also many of these Jewish rules only apply to the Jewish people, and not to the rest of us Gentiles. Many of the things that the Jews did, they did as a covenant between themselves and God, as his chosen people, and these things also do not apply to us Goyim. If it is a Law specifically given by God, such as the Ten Commandments, then it holds a higher authority then something that is Jewish Religious Rules and Traditions.

Also again, there is the subject of Grace. If you believe like the fellow above that doing something bad is going to send you to hell in and of itself, I have a news flash for you…

You are destined to go to Hell pretty much from birth, and nothing you do is going to save you from that.

Salvation is through grace alone, and repentance of the things you do wrong. Meaning that there are many things you do during the day which are sins, and you most likely don’t even know about it, but you are to pray for forgiveness, do the best you can to be the best person you can, trust in God, and not sweat the little stuff too much.

Now I’ll try and answer this stuff to the best of my ability, but some of these things are not the areas I have ever concentrated any serious study into.

Originally posted by time4chg07
The bible says that women are not to speak in church and if they have questions to wait and ask the men at home and they are to be silent most of the time...which resembles islam in a way.

It resembles many other religions besides just Islam as well. Even the American Indians, which I have spent some time with, have very defined roles that each person plays in both the relationship and the tribe itself. Either way though I don’t recall ever reading where it says that it’s a sin for a woman to speak in church. See where it says “it’s a shame for a woman to speak in church”, I would classify that more as a social taboo then a commandment from God.
Now there are something’s having to do with women and church that go back to old Hebrew tradition, one being that women are more prone to being tempted astray, as Eve was. They also have traditions relating to when a woman is “unclean”, meaning when she is having her period, which is similar to many other religions as well. Also it’s stated in the Bible that women should cover their heads in church so as not to "tempt the angels to leave their first station", which goes back into the post I made above about Gen 6. Again, I don't see where any of these are classified by God as sins though.

Originally posted by time4chg07
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people.
this also is talking about killing unbelievers?

God says that it is better to “cut of your hand then to let it continue to sin”, and this sort of follows that same theme. It’s not saying that you should go kill people just because they believe differently then you, but you should “cut off” those who will actively lead you astray. I don’t think it means that you should kill them, because it directly conflicts with what the New Testament says in this verse:

"To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife. To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?" (1 Corinthians 7:10-16).

Originally posted by time4chg07
It just doesnt make sense...christians want to believe the whole bible but then ignore parts like this...the whole old testament is full of bs....i mean killing homosexuals? women were pretty much property...by the way..
i too, have been torn, spent my whole life defending the bible blindly without thoroughly looking into it..i had read it, but with a different mindset than when i read it now.

Again you must sort out what is from God, what is from man, what is tradition, what was criminal/civil law, what happened for a specific reason, and what no longer applies. Maybe this will help you out somewhat:

Tit 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, especially they of the circumcision:
Tit 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
Tit 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Tit 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Remember that if you tried to follow all the Jewish traditions you would also have to follow the Talmud, and if you followed the Talmud, you could not be a Christian…
It all comes down to Grace anyway, no man can follow the law.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

[edit on 11/1/2007 by defcon5]

First of all I think it is ridiculous that people constantly refer to the violence in the Koran. For a Jew that would be calling the kettle black. The Old testament is filled with violence. God is one mean SOB in the old testament. He's constantly telling the Jews to smite and wipe out entire cities and murder everyone in them. The instances are too numerous to quote, if you don't believe me check it out for yourself on google.
I was not raised to adhere to any religion but I am drawn to the message of love in gospels of the New testament.
I think the message of Jesus starts to get a little bit crazy and misguided by the time you get to writings of the apostle Paul. He wasn't an original disciple and he definitely seems to have an agenda.
I also believe that "The Church" has most definitely edited the Bible over Time for it's own agenda as well. What's the reason for a SECRET Library in the Vatican???? Why should anyone trust a religion that has something to hide or keeps secrets from you??
I also believe that for any one religion, Judaism for instance - that believes they are God's chosen people is exclusive and dangerous. There have always been many peoples of this planet and many different concepts of God and religion.
Who is really to say that one religion is right and another is wrong?
The Hindu religion has been around far longer than Judaism and it has many admirable qualities - like vegetarianism for one.
Religious tolerence I think is the most important thing. Can't we all just get along???
Apparently not

Originally posted by defcon5
Many of the things that the Jews did, they did as a covenant between themselves and God, as his chosen people, and these things also do not apply to us Goyim.

Uh, you do realize that Goyim is a derogatory word used by the Jews for gentiles, right? It means "Cattle."

reply to post by defcon5


Your missing my point.
Religion has been twisted so much from the time of the Sumerians.
Why didn't the Sumerians say they were created by an almight supreme being???? Because this wasn't true.
They worshipped "PEOPLE", well actually the Sumerians didn't even worship, they looked up to the creaters(people).
The Sumerians knew about our solar system and the sirious constellation because they were shown or taught about the places. Eg/ when the Sumerians asked the Annunhaki where they came from they pointed to the stars and told the Sumerians about Sirious and it's double star that can only be seen through advanced modern methods which organistaions like Nasa use(I'm not in the know about what equipment Nasa uses).
There is nothing magical about what the Sumerians knew, it's common sense, they were visited by aliens, and the aliens created us.
Like your cuttings of the old testament you posted, when you read it from a modern perspective it does actually sound like it's aliens that have come to this planet, except that the story/facts have been twisted almost beyond recognition.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
And you come to this conclusion by what method? God does not control the actions of man. Unless you are willing to suggest that we live in some sort of simulated world where we are only pawns used to play God's game, which may be the case... Otherwise, the manipulation of the bible by man for use to gain more power is not only possible, but plausible.

The Word of God was manipulated by the Roman Catholic Church, but not the actual Word itself. The Word had existed in the Christian Churches that predated the Roman Catholic Church, and as you can see in my post above about Polycarp and Irenaeus, it already had men making sure it stayed true to its original message long before the official religion of Rome was Christianity.

The way that Rome manipulated was two fold, first it was by keeping the actual Bible out of the hands of the common man, secondly it was through controlling the interpretation of that word as it was given to the common man. As the common man had nothing to check the interpretation against, they pretty much had to do as Rome commanded, often under the penalty of the Inquisition.

That is what was so significant about Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation, and why it caused a schism that was beyond Rome’s ability to stop or control. Martin Luther wrote the New Testament so that the common man could read it, and see for themselves the liberties that the Roman Church had taken with their interpretations. He also had the protection of several German Politicians that allowed him to be tried publicly rather then in the private torture chamber of the Inquisitors. It was very apparent to everyone (who could now read the word for themselves) that Rome had been abusing their power, which came out in the court. So the Inquisition was denied getting their hands on Luther to shut him up.

If the word had been as changeable as many non-Christians claim it was, then Rome could have easily changed the word to fit its agenda and the Protestant Reformation would have ended as quickly as it began.

Captain Planet:

You're right about spiritual awakening not being dependent on the Bible. Many people read the Bible like just another book (Theologians and even 'Christians') and without a spiritual awakening having taken place earlier, they cannot understand God's Word. When Christ said: "let those who have ears to hear and eyes to see" (He said it repeatedly) that's what He meant. Only God can open our eyes and ears so that we can understand His Word with spiritual understanding.

Spiritual understanding about what? What are we meant to understand?

We are meant to understand what the Bible is all about: The Sonship of Jesus the Christ, the significance of His Cross and His Resurrection - and His exclusive role as humanity's Redeemer and source of Eternal Life!

Originally posted by defcon5

If the word had been as changeable as many non-Christians claim it was, then Rome could have easily changed the word to fit its agenda and the Protestant Reformation would have ended as quickly as it began.

That would have been all too obvious.. Those who manipulate do not do the obvious.

By the way, I'm not "non-Christian." I'm just not a churchy Christian. I actually THINK FOR MYSELF!! Wow, what a concept!!





[edit on 1-11-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Uh, you do realize that Goyim is a derogatory word used by the Jews for gentiles, right? It means "Cattle."

It can be a derogatory term or not depending on how it is used, it mainly means a non-Jewish “people”.

Goy (Hebrew: גוי, regular plural goyim גויים in Western languages) is a transliterated Hebrew word which translates as "nation" or "people". Historically and up to modern times it is a synonym for Gentile or non-Jew. Depending on the context, its use can be controversial or completely innocuous.

reply to post by time4chg07


I too have recently questioned my faith in the Christian version of God for a myriad of reasons, contradictions that I couldn't come to terms with being the biggest thing... such as

God loves you but will send you to Hell (or the Lake of Fire) if you sin, if He loved us so much wouldn't He create some kind of "Dimension of Lenient Punishment" why would he lump us together with Lucifer??

God is the god of the whole universe but decides to only spread his message through one obscure middle eastern religion

Jesus never once said he wanted to start a new religion, that was the disciples idea after Jesus was gone, and imo a bad move...

I could go on and on... as for woman's oppression that is one of the contradictions that raised my doubt, because my devout father kept saying the Bible was God's actual words, and I said "What about the verse where Paul says women should be quiet and yada yada" and he said "It was the tradition at the time" and of course at that point he'd basically ran over his own foot, either that or he was calling God a sexist pig

Killing was a big theme in ancient religious documents, everyone's favorite epic heroes went around sieging cities, unless the killing was in self-defense God probably wasn't too happy about it, the real God anyway...

As for homosexuals, honestly, I'm not sure, all I know is that there is plenty of evidence saying its not so much a choice but that biology may be a bigger factor than most Christians would like to admit... but I always wonder why so many Christians are obsessed about homosexuals, like they think about it all the time, I say let em do whatever they want as long as I don't have to think about it, its their business...

Anyway... after all my doubts accumulated I began a new search, a search for the true God of everything and everyone, not some narrow religious God who communicates only through one misguided fear mongering religion (Christianity) but one who is communicating with us all the time in the world around us, and through all wisdom, not just the wisdom of Christianity...