Actual C-130 Interaction With The Pentaplane helps reveal the TRUE flight path., page 2
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reply posted on 9-12-2007 @ 03:14 PM by Craig Ranke CIT
Originally posted by Boone 870


O'Brien did not state how far past the mall he was. Also, he did not state how far south of the mall he was.


He states he was passed the mall headed westbound after traveling north and west. This is not what the RADES data shows.


You're using nonspecific information to make specific claims. All the statements O'Brien made were relative to his position during the flight.
You are interpreting his words to match your theory.


Huh? That is what YOU are doing by ignoring the fact that he says north and west while the RADES data shows southwest.

North and west is VERY specific.

How could he be any more specific?


Just because you don't believe that a 4-5 mile vantage point from an aircraft can be considered a ''wonderful veiw'' doesn't mean that O'Brien should have been right above the mall to have that veiw.


It's the reference point he uses after having traveled north and west.

If he traveled southwest he would not use the mall as a reference point plus if his view of the mall from 5 or 6 miles away traveling southwest was so great his view of the plane coming directly in front of him at 9:34:25 would be even better.



North and west. Two separate words, two separate directions. You are the one that believes he flew northwest. He departed to the north and then flew west.

GREEN=Northwest flightpath
RED=Actual flightpath
BLUE=West
WHITE=Southwest


Red and white are both southwest.

Blue is west.

But O'Brien says he traveled NORTH and west.



Blue is northwest.

Red is north and west.

Both end up south of the mall.

You ignore the FACT that he says north when the RADES data shows the opposite.


The two yellow thumbtacks represent positions from the radar data. As you can see by the redline, Gopher06 flew closer to west than it did to the southwest.



But he says he flew north and west.

Why do you keep ignoring what he says and stating there is no contradiction?


reply posted on 9-12-2007 @ 07:19 PM by Boone 870
reply to post by Craig Ranke CIT



North and west is VERY specific.

How could he be any more specific?


North and west is not very specific.

Every airplane has a heading indicator. The heading indicator is labeled with degrees. 010, 020, 030, and so on..... until you get back to 360 which is north. East is 090, South is 180, West is 270. I don't believe that the heading indicator even has the east, south, west, or north label on them.

If he was being specific, he would have given a number for his heading instead of north and west.

He wasn't giving or receiving headings from ATC during the interview, he used north and west as a layman's term.

If you think north and west is very specific in the aviation universe, then go to this web site www.liveatc.net and listen to the live feeds and then come back and tell me that north and west is specific.

O'Brien said:

Our first sighting of the AA flight was just after we had gone by the mall westbound.


How long is "just after" to you? Two seconds? Two minutes?


GREEN=Northwest flightpath
RED=Actual flightpath
BLUE=West
WHITE=Southwest

originally posted by Craig Ranke
Red and white are both southwest.


White is southwest. Blue is west. Red is westsouthwest, which is closer to west that it is southwest.


reply posted on 9-12-2007 @ 10:16 PM by Craig Ranke CIT
reply to post by Boone 870



"westsouthwest"?



Bro.......O'Brien says he traveled north and west to the south side of the mall which is in fact northwest of Andrews.

The RADES data shows no such thing.

The RADES data says he traveled southwest.

This is not what he says.

You are resorting to making up cardinal points like "westsouthwest" and dismissing others like "north" in order to continue this discussion without conceding.


Please answer the following questions with yes or no answers.

Do you agree that O'Brien claims he traveled north and west?

Do you agree that the RADES data shows him traveling southwest?


reply posted on 10-12-2007 @ 03:27 PM by Boone 870
reply to post by Craig Ranke CIT



Do you agree that O'Brien claims he traveled north and west?

Do you agree that the RADES data shows him traveling southwest?



Yes

No

I have already shown that the flight path was closer to West then it was southwest.

The radar data map that shows the C-130 flight path is not oriented north.

I re-created the flight path on a map that was oriented north. Why do you keep saying Southwest?

Did you look at the air traffic control link I posted? How many times did you hear a controller issuing directions using North, East, South, or West?

How long is "just after" to you?

How far is"south of the mall" to you? 20 feet? 2 miles?



reply posted on 10-12-2007 @ 05:01 PM by Craig Ranke CIT
Originally posted by Boone 870
reply to
post by Craig Ranke CIT



Do you agree that O'Brien claims he traveled north and west?

Do you agree that the RADES data shows him traveling southwest?



Yes


Ok then do you claim that the RADES data shows him traveling north after take off?


No

I have already shown that the flight path was closer to West then it was southwest.

The radar data map that shows the C-130 flight path is not oriented north.

I re-created the flight path on a map that was oriented north. Why do you keep saying Southwest?


Because it is STILL southwest even when oriented perfectly to north.

Are you really denying this?

Are you suggesting that there is only one angle that is southwest?

I don't get it.

Do you really think that "westsouthwest" is even a word?

Please explain.




Did you look at the air traffic control link I posted? How many times did you hear a controller issuing directions using North, East, South, or West?


What does that have to do with the fact that O'Brien used those terms?

You already agreed that he says north and west.

The RADES data does not depict this which right away proves a contradiction between the two.



How long is "just after" to you?

How far is"south of the mall" to you? 20 feet? 2 miles?




Doesn't matter.

Point is he says he was headed westbound (not southwest) and was at the south side of the mall after traveling north and west from Andrews.

The RADES data shows no such thing


reply posted on 10-12-2007 @ 05:03 PM by Craig Ranke CIT
reply to post by eyewitness86



Thanks.

It's quite refreshing to hear from someone with basic common sense.


reply posted on 10-12-2007 @ 06:42 PM by Boone 870
reply to post by Craig Ranke CIT



Ok then do you claim that the RADES data shows him traveling north after take off?


Yes. For a short amount of time.


Are you suggesting that there is only one angle that is southwest?

I don't get it.

Do you really think that "westsouthwest" is even a word?

Please explain.



a point on the compass midway between west and southwest.
Dictionary.com

What does that have to do with the fact that O'Brien used those terms?

You already agreed that he says north and west.


It has everything to do with this conversation.

I suggested that north and west was vague.
You said that they were very specific.
I said no they weren't. If O'Brien was being specific, he would have given heading numbers.

Then I posted a link that has live air traffic control transmissions and asked you to listen to the controllers and report back telling me how many times you heard the terms north, east, south, or west when the controllers were telling the aircraft what direction to head.

Did you go to the link and listen to the controllers?

Doesn't matter.


Yes it does matter. Your interpretation of those phrases is the basis of your proof that the RADES data was fabricated to fit the official story.


reply posted on 10-12-2007 @ 09:03 PM by Boone 870
reply to post by Craig Ranke CIT



But my point is still 100% correct.

O'Brien claims he traveled north and west to the south side of the mall.


I have to disagree.

O'Brien didn't claim that he traveled north and west to the south side of the mall. He said, "which took us by the south side of the mall".

The next time you go to Washington, DC, head over to the local airport and spend a hundred bucks for a scenic flight and ask the pilot to fly you as close to the mall as he can get. Take notes on how far away you can see it.


reply posted on 10-12-2007 @ 11:15 PM by Craig Ranke CIT
Originally posted by Boone 870
reply to
post by Craig Ranke CIT



But my point is still 100% correct.

O'Brien claims he traveled north and west to the south side of the mall.


I have to disagree.

O'Brien didn't claim that he traveled north and west to the south side of the mall. He said, "which took us by the south side of the mall".


That is the the same thing.

Are you now going to deny what the word "to" means?

The south side of the mall is north and west from Andrews.

The RADES flight path is NOT.



The next time you go to Washington, DC, head over to the local airport and spend a hundred bucks for a scenic flight and ask the pilot to fly you as close to the mall as he can get. Take notes on how far away you can see it.




It doesn't matter how far away it is possible to see it.

He doesn't say....."and I was able to see the mall in the distance."

He says he went north and west to the south side of the mall.

He does not say he went westsouthwest to the RADES flight path.

He would not say "which took us to the south side of the mall" if he was way south of the River and the Pentagon headed in a different direction!

The fact that you will attempt to argue this is blowing my mind.



reply posted on 11-12-2007 @ 11:56 AM by Boone 870
reply to post by Craig Ranke CIT



originally posted by Craig Ranke
The fact that you will attempt to argue this is blowing my mind.


Steve O'Brien
"When we took off, we headed north and west and had a beautiful view of the Mall,"
"I noticed this airplane up and to the left of us, at 10 o'clock. He was descending to our altitude, four miles away or so."
"we turned back to the east to follow it per a request from Wash. Departure Control."


The fact that you use the above quotes to end up with this map-
-is blowing mine!

Why do you have the C-130 turning left in the above image?


reply posted on 11-12-2007 @ 04:35 PM by Boone 870
reply to post by Craig Ranke CIT





Why not?


Because the radar data shows him turning right. You are claiming that the radar data is fake, why would they show him turning to the left rather than the right?


reply posted on 11-12-2007 @ 06:37 PM by Boone 870
reply to post by Craig Ranke CIT



Why do you have him turning left in your diagram of what you thought the flight path should be? What makes you think he turned to the left instead of to the right?
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