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Jesus' divinity and Gnostics

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posted on Oct, 24 2007 @ 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38
Revelation 22:8-16

Jesus says to John - don't worship me - worship GOD ONLY.


Yep,



posted on Oct, 24 2007 @ 12:40 PM
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reply to post by dbates
 



dbates, I can go along with that, but that's not the same as Jesus and God being one and the same entity.. Some people talk as if they are one and the same thing, I say they're not.



posted on Oct, 24 2007 @ 01:09 PM
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reply to post by queenannie38
 


Except there's a distinction created in verse 16 when Christ says through His angel,


"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."



posted on Oct, 24 2007 @ 11:42 PM
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Jesus asked Peter.." Who do you think I am?" And Peter Said, You are the Christ, the love of God made manifest to men. And Jesus said, Thrice blessed are you, Simon, Jonas son. You have declared a truth that God has given you.



And Jesus said to them, With much delight I speak to you concerning life--the brotherhood of life. The universal God is one, yet he is more then one; all things are God; all things are one. By the sweet breaths of God all life is bound in one.



All men see not the Triune God. One sees him as a God of might; another as a God of thought; yet another as a God of love. A mans ideal is his God, and so, as man unfolds.


I have listed three descriptions of God as quoted by Jesus in an alternative doctrine. In understanding Christ, and his being bourne of God, I have come to beleive that Christ is Gods love made manifest.
That Jesus Christ the living was Gods love made man. That the two are in one, yet apart from each other in form.

In another area, Christ explains the process of coming to God. Where we start with belief, and then belief itself is lost to faith. When one comes to the Father, then both belief and faith are lost for you are one with God.

As a man who formerly was a casual believer, I had some revelations in which I was confronted abruptly with the fact that God and Christ are indeed real. When these events happened to me, I would equate it to a story such as the following...

I was a man blind to faith. People told me there was much color and birds in the world, yet I could not see them, nor would I beleive them.

When I was healed, then I used the colors and the birds and became an artist.

From that point on, then came the dreams. Every night. More fun then movies. Detailed, mysterious, exciting, enlightening..you name it..

I had a dream, in which I was looking at a young man. The man looked at me and said..." I am the Universe "

In the end days, young men will have visions, and old men will dream dreams.

In looking at some of the alternate Gospels, Nag etc, there is a much broader understanding of the fact that many people were having a hard time interpreting what Christ was saying. Yet in many ways, I feel that Christ spoke the way he did so that you had to come to him in order that he would come to you, and through the father. A two way street of sorts.

This is why he says, look and you shall see, Seek and you shall find, and knock and it shall be open.

Three Gospels that I would suggest reading are the Lost years of Jesus, the Aquarian Gospel of Christ and the Gospel of the Holy 12. The truth of Christ will ring though as you read and you will understand that Christ, if he so inclined, could inspire you if you were reading nancy drew.

As you read, listen for the Love. Listen for the Truth. Listen for Equality. Test those words and passages.

The Sheep will know the shepard by his voice..

Peace


[edit on 25-10-2007 by HIFIGUY]

[edit on 25-10-2007 by HIFIGUY]



posted on Oct, 25 2007 @ 06:37 AM
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Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Three Gospels that I would suggest reading are the Lost years of Jesus, the Aquarian Gospel of Christ and the Gospel of the Holy 12.


Are these books considered Gnostics text? I can't say that I'm that familiar with them. Myself, I'm more of a traditional Bible only person. I'll read other text but don't usually reference it to others. The Book of Enoch for instance has some interesting stories. But that's not considered Gnostics.

So speak up. What's the history of these books that your referencing. Inquiring minds want to know.



posted on Oct, 25 2007 @ 09:41 AM
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dbates, I can tell you, having read them that the Lost Years of Jesus and the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus are not Gnostic texts. I would define them as spiritualistic....



posted on Oct, 26 2007 @ 03:15 AM
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Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
dbates, I can tell you, having read them that the Lost Years of Jesus and the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus are not Gnostic texts. I would define them as spiritualistic....


There are those that would argue the Aquarian Gospel on the basis of it containing Gnostic components...

As for the others, they are not..but all in all, are we supporting Gnosticism or searching for the truth?

I have read many of the lost doctrines and such. When considering the Aquarian Gospel, having read many other Gospels, I am beginning to believe that this may be in fact more accurate then any other Gospel.

When you say its spiritual, well all I have to say is Amen to that. For what part of our being and God is not spiritual? And what part of scripture, if divinely inspired by God, or Jesus is not spiritual. The Origin of the book itself is interesting, as it was transcribed during the quiet hours of the night.

The Author wasnt seeking notoriety, or fame...He was a sunday school teacher. I personally have had inspired writing sessions that were simlar to the origin of this book and I believe its possible that this work could be the most accurate and revealing one available.

Here is a link for those interested..

reluctant-messenger.com...

My signature comes from this book..incidently..

Peace..



posted on Oct, 26 2007 @ 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by dbates
The Word (God per verse 1) was made flesh and lived with people. God was cloaked in human form and lived with people who could talk and interact with him. The same name is used in both verse 1 and 14. The Word is still God, but now lives on earth.

Reading verse 2 we see that this Word is with God, but is at the same time God. What we see here are two distinct characters that are at the same time God. In the next verse we are made aware of the fact that this Word is actually the creator of all. Reading the entire chapter, and seeing how John the Baptist testifies of him, it's clear that this Word is Jesus and that Jesus is the almighty God.


Well this is where our Theology disagrees. You interpret it that way, I do not. I think there is some truth to "Jesus is God" but much in the same way that you or I have a spark of God's essence in ourselves. God is you and you are God, as am I and everyone else, collectively, is the idea. But to say God came down upon Earth and cloaked himself in Flesh is not true!

It was not the same entity! I can prove it with the book.

Who was Jesus crying out to as he died on the Cross, saying "Father, why have you forsaken me?". Surely he knew that there was no "Father" above to call up to, because according to you HE WAS the Father on Earth. But no, he knew that his Father's Kingdom was his, but he knew he was NOT his Father, I really dont even want to fish for quotes because there are so freaking many in the Bible of Jesus talking about his Father; the Father.

So God sent himself to Earth in the flesh to let himself be served up and killed for "our sins". Right, that really makes alot of sense. If that was the only way to interpret it I would not be a Christian. God sent his only begotten son to die on the cross, not God himself. This is clearly written.

There is grave danger with glorifying Jesus over God. God is the creator, Jesus is his "son", his prized creation; a piece of himself but not himself in the entirety. When Jesus becomes idolized, and prayers are no longer directed to God but to Jesus alone, this is sinning in the eyes of the Lord. God says, Have no other God before me. That includes his son!

And who easier to exalt to a God and worship as such than God's own son? Surely people will believe this one if they will believe any story at all. And this is how the deception of the demon works against you in these words and outlook. Because you go unknowingly exalting God's own son above God himself, and Jesus will testify for himself at Judgement and say "No, I did not teach the people to worship me as God, Father, they have erred in this."



posted on Oct, 26 2007 @ 07:31 PM
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reply to post by runetang
 


Christ and his final words on the cross can be interpreted with bias..

The unbelieving Jew would say perhaps, : "Why have you forsaken me"

The Christian hearing " Into my hands I commit my spirit "

and yet again.." It is done "

Doesnt " why have you forsaken me" sound out of place? It just doenst fit with the context of his mission or teachings. The final two seem more plausible,

and according to the Aquarian Gospel, it was

3 And when the sun refused to shine and darkness came, the Lord exclaimed, Heloi! Heloi! lama sabachthani (Thou sun! thou sun! why hast thou forsaken me?)


The result fulfills the prophecy either way, and his rising from the dead over shadows the inconsistency in quotations..

In regards to The Father and the Son....


Christ being the Almighty Gods love made manifest.
Christ being Gods love, and the messenger of God as the son of God.
Christ Brings witness to the father for in seeing the Son, you have seen the Father..

In honoring the command of the Son, you are merely honoring the command of the Father for he is merely bringing forth that which the father wills.

So that in honoring the son, you do not deny the Father or the son, but honor the father through the son, for the two are one.

There is no danger in Glorifying Jesus for what is Good is Good. In Glorifying the son, you merely honor the Fathers command. Hence, you come to the Father through the Son.

Peace

[edit on 26-10-2007 by HIFIGUY]



posted on Oct, 26 2007 @ 11:17 PM
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actually, why have you forsaken me makes perfect sense, and is beautiful. its proof of jesus' manliness, his humanness.

it shows that even jesus suffered like we do, felt pain like we do, felt hopeless and scared like we do when we die, he experienced death like any man, in a man's body, with a man's brain. that takes a profound amount of strength, and even the strongest may say in their last moments of peril, why have you forsaken me? perhaps expecting to not have to literally DIE like a normal person.. that it would be different for him because he was Jesus.

Jesus did wield divine power of God and could cede authority over this divine power to his servants. He gave the disciples the ability to heal and cast out demons, which before they didnt have, nor would they ever had have, if it werent for Jesus giving them the ability to do so. But Jesus didnt give the power, Jesus brokered the power from God to the disciples. The power of God, the holy spirit, was curing those illnesses, not Jesus' "half-God DNA" ..



posted on Oct, 27 2007 @ 01:03 PM
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reply to post by HIFIGUY
 


Or...He was quoting Psalm 22, one of the most prophetic psalms regarding the Messiah in all of scripture:


1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?

2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.

4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.


More likely, rather than His humanity getting in the way, He was pointing to a Psalm that could be looked to that may otherwise have been missed by his disciples at the time.

Which would also mean that, according to the Gnostic text, He did not reference scripture, which would be unusual for Him to do.

[edit on 10/27/07/27 by junglejake]



posted on Oct, 27 2007 @ 03:09 PM
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Duplicate...

[edit on 27-10-2007 by HIFIGUY]



posted on Oct, 27 2007 @ 03:09 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake

Which would also mean that, according to the Gnostic text, He did not reference scripture, which would be unusual for Him to do.

[edit on 10/27/07/27 by junglejake]


Does not Christ say on some accounts.." Is it not written " or " Isnt it written " and even more so.." For it is written "?

Christ came to fulfill the scripture and usher in a new covenant.

When he speaks with the Jewish people, he says to them, " You do not believe your own scripture which tells of my coming, why should you believe me"? A contextual quote...

And lastly, The Spirit of Truth. Referenced in the new testament who would bring into our rememberance all that Christ had said.

I found this quotation by Christ..


Jesus Christ

"There are many things which I have to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit the Spirit of Truth whom I will send unto you from above, shall guide you into all truth, and bring all things to your remembrance whatsoever I have said unto you from above, shall guide you into all truth, and bring all things to your remembrance whatsoever I have said unto you."
"After my departure there will arise the ignorant and the crafty, and many things will they ascribe unto Me that I never spake, and many things which I did speak will they withhold, but the day will come when the clouds shall be rolled away, and the Sun of Righteousness shall shine forth with healing in his wings."
"I am the Way, the Truth, the Life. The doctrine which I teach is that which I am. I am It and It is I."



A debate of custom and interpretation is where Christianity and theologists have taken this..

A command was issued. Its foundation is Love and Universal Unity.

The Truth is the Truth is the Truth..

The Truth Terminates hate and ultimately restores the truth.

Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti



[edit on 27-10-2007 by HIFIGUY]



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