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Fate vs. Free will

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posted on Jan, 27 2004 @ 01:01 AM
I know, I'll probably be flamed for bringing up an old issue, but it is a risk I will take.

First off, I know that the "fate vs. free will" argument will never be settled and definetly not by my little observations. It is like the Euthenasia debate or abortion debate. But anyway...

Just a little backgroudn, I am of a Judeo-Christian upbringing and live my life by the standards and commandments set in them. I have been thinking a while on my own faith and convictions and have been burdened with one thought. That the Christian bible has a huge loophole in it with the subject of free will and fate.

First off, God made us in his own image and yada yada yada. But he puts these two people in the Garden of Eden and told them not to eat the "forbidden fruit". Then, I believe, a couple days later Adam and Eve eat the fruit and thrown out of Eden. If this was all fated, one would argue, "Why would God even bother with telling them not eat the fruit?" If this was all free will, then there would be no questions. Same could be said about Sodom and Gamorrah; "Why would God bother making a plan with Sodomites if he is just going to kill them all?"

That is the argument for free will, obviously.

For Fate, we have our prophets and prophecies. Jesus told Peter that he would betray/deny Jesus three times before the cock sounded. If there was free will, how would Jesus know this. Free will can only work if there is no ultimate plan. It would negate the idea of free will. There are also other predictions/fates in the bible.

It just doesn't add up to me. It contradicts itself. Therefore I conclude there is no God and there is only the lizard people....kidding.

I would love to hear what other people believe on this issue. If you can find anymore contradictions please feel free to posting them. Also, I'm not a blind follower of any train of thought and am open to ideas/suggestions/porn/whatever...anywho...thanks for reading this.

posted on Jan, 27 2004 @ 06:50 AM
Finally, someone who thinks in the same whay I do towards this issue! Thanks OXmanK for bringing this issue up.

I'd post more indepth later as I am currently using a public computer


posted on Jan, 27 2004 @ 06:53 AM
Fate vs. free will, always an interesting subject.

I see you are thinking about this from a religious point of view.
Here are my 2 cents on it:
Bible was written by men inspired by events which God caused or influenced. Therefore it is not 100% true, it can't be if you accept the idea of all-knowing all-powerful being. Such being would not make the blatant and obvious contradictory statements that can be found in religious books.
If you accept the existence of such being outside our universe, who is able to create universes and that he/she/it also knows what is going to happen, that still doesnt take the choice away from us. WE DON'T KNOW the future.
Imagine this: you are standing on a crossroad and are not sure which way to take. A certain person has given you vague instructions, what will happen if you choose left, what if you chose right. Imagine now that the person can see whats at the end of each way and knows what will happen to you. That does not affect your choice, you DON'T know so you still have to choose.
So, you do have free will.

Now to fate and predetermined things.
At this very moment, every single person will do something that will affect somebody else, whos response to it will be based on previous events, his character (which is also shaped through events which take place in life and genetics), his current emotional state (determined by hormones which are controled by programmed cell response), so it is a VERY complex but predetermined course of events. Cause and effect. This neverending sequence of cause and effect is so complicated that it appears random to us. Cause and effect determine our "free will". No decision is absolutely free, it is influenced by your character, by other people, by past events, by your emotions, by religion. A very complex chain of events which can be predicted if you are an all-powerful being I assume. That is why God knows what is going to happen, but the knowledge of it doesnt take the limited choice from YOU.
For some reason God decided to create the world like it is now, the ultimate question "WHY" is something only God can answer. SO far he has chosen not to. He has only given us guidance but no deffinite answers.
For some reason we are supposed to make mistakes and deal with the consequences (Adam and Eve, Sodom and Gomorah, our own little individual choices), there is a reason for all that I believe. But what exactly it is, no human can give you that answer.

posted on Jan, 28 2004 @ 03:50 PM
So are you trying to say that free will is an illusion given to us?

Also, the "we are supposed to make mistakes" part leads only to fate.

So the bigger question is not "Why is the world the way it is," but rather bigger questions such as the very existence of God or is there really a Heaven or Hell.

If God exist, then fate must be there. To be all powerful and all knowing has to have fate. To have free will, then there probably is no Christian God in our typical way of thinking of God. It would still support issues with poly-theistic religion, but not monotheism. Look at the Greeks or Roman or even Egyptian gods. They control, typically, one thing. They don't know everything, but they are far more mightier than any man.

Also, to have our Judeo-Christian God in the sense described as above, you should ask how is heaven or hell relevant. If God has this plan all set out for you, should you be the one punished for it through eternal damnation or be blessed with peace ever after? If God knows what is to become of you can you truly be held responisble?

Paperclip, my brain is starting to hurt from thinking about the infiniti that would be needed for fate to exist in your opinion. Of course anybody could rebut that God is infinate. But anyway........

posted on Jan, 28 2004 @ 05:16 PM
If the god of the christians exest than free will is an illusion because everything is preordianed. That why there arguement about god giving us free will falls short. You can not have free will and a FIXED future the two exclude each other.

Of course without that type of "God" than we make our own future be it heaven or hell

posted on Jan, 28 2004 @ 05:20 PM
Here's my view: We're all trapped in a giant newtonian machine. Everyone has choices, but are they really 'viable' choices? Did Peter really have an option to not deny he was a disciple? if he did, he would have probably been killed.

it's sort of like in greek tradgedy- no matter what you try, you're still screwed.


posted on Jan, 29 2004 @ 09:30 AM
Difficult to answer.

The future exists not because it is set, but because it is being set with every passing moment. This is the true nature of destiny. We have a limited sort of free will if you like. Every event that has ever happened sets the stage for the probable future. Everything that you have ever learned or experienced builds you into the person that you are and the choices that you will make via the way that you have come to think.

posted on Jan, 29 2004 @ 09:57 AM
Do we control our desires our do our desires control us? Is free will just an illusion?

posted on Jan, 29 2004 @ 09:27 PM
ya the question is very confusing both have arugments in their favour

freewill- God allowed Adam and Eve to choose what to do

fate- god says he's the alpha and omega beginning and end therefore he would know everything in between

posted on Jan, 29 2004 @ 10:07 PM
I don't think that the idea of free-will and fate can coexist. Fate negates free-will. Free-will negates fate.

You can make the choices, but they really don't amount to shyt, despite your choices, you'll wind up on the same road, then go to the end. That's what I think fate means.

You can make the choices, and each one takes you somewhere else, then eventually takes you to the end, depending on which road your choice takes you to. That is what I think free-will means.

posted on Jan, 29 2004 @ 10:13 PM
Exactly Juan Bond...and the bible supports both sides of the argument which complete screws with my head...

posted on Jan, 29 2004 @ 10:19 PM

Originally posted by OXmanK
Exactly Juan Bond...and the bible supports both sides of the argument which complete screws with my head...

Have you tried looking outside of the "good book"?
(and the ATS boards)
Perhaps your answer lies elsewhere.

I would suggest porn
just kidding.

posted on Jan, 29 2004 @ 10:24 PM
Yes, I have and have found plenty of solice in just believing in God.

posted on Jan, 29 2004 @ 11:44 PM
Why can't it be both for each spirit?

Then the question is which came first, fate or freewill?

I still haven't figured this one out.

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