Chemtrails: Debunking the Peristent Contrail myth

There are numerous threads about chemtrails on ATS - and none of them ever seem to go anywhere - just the same out arguments repeated ad nauseum.

Perhaps it's time we tried a different approach?

There is a well known and well documented explanation for the phenomena which some people claim to be chemtrails: they are persistent contrails formed by well understood atmospheric processes by perfectly normal aircraft.

So, perhaps, in order to prove chemtrails exist, we can debunk this theory? That would then finally pave the way for us to debate what else they might be. Let's see if we can prove that the 'chemtrail/persistent contrail' phenomena is new and cannot be explained by normal atmospheric processes etc

So come on you you chemtrailers - here's your chance to prove us meteorologists and aviation experts wrong.

Lets' start by looking at a few well known papers and reports. Let's see if we can debunk any or all of them

One aspect of weather pollution in the atmosphere is the generation of contrails. The spreading out of jet contrails into extensive cirrus sheets is a familiar sight. Often, when persistent conditions exist from 25,000 to 40,000ft, several long contrails increase in number and gradually merge into an almost solid interlaced sheet

Kuhn, 1970

Surface observations from 1971 to 1995 show that cirrus increased significantly over the northern oceans and the United States

~ ~ ~

It is concluded that the U.S. cirrus trends are most likely due to air traffic

~ ~ ~

... the cirrus trends over the United States are estimated to cause a tropospheric warming of 0.28–0.38C decade21, a range that includes the observed tropospheric temperature trend of 0.278C decade21 between 1975 and 1994.

Minnis etal 2003

Researchers are investigating how air travel can be adapted to ease its impact on the environment.

The investigation focuses on how aircraft can avoid creating vapour trails, also known as contrails. These spindly threads of condensation may not seem important but some persist for hours and behave in the same way as high altitude cirrus clouds, trapping warmth in the atmosphere and exacerbating global warming.

Press release from Imperial College, London, 2005

Also have a read of:

Contrail Uncertainties

Aviation and Global Climate

Can we prove that these studies are wrong?

If so we can say that the normal explanation for 'chemtrails' is flawed and that the various conspiracy theories might be worth reassessing



Over to you!

reply to post by Essan



Outstanding thread and OP. I don't have much to add other than an interesting bit I read in the October edition of Aerospace America, the periodical for the AIAA (American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics) of which my wife is a member.

The article was about "Engineering a Fix for Global Climate Change" (read Global Warming).

One of the ideas being researched is to shade the Earth by using specific materials that would hang in the atmosphere and either reflect the UV rays or absorb CO2. The suggested (and only practicle) method of distributing these materials is by discharging them out of the aft end of aircraft.

While the article goes on to say that this concept is not in use and is only in the early research stages the researchers are very conscious of the fact there could be side effects of this activity that could be worse than the problem they are trying to correct.

I mention this here because I can see the "Contrail" folks getting VERY excited if one day they really do see a jet crossing the sky spraying something into the atmosphere.

Springer...

Weather manipulation is nothing new.

It has been going on for decades.

It has been used since 1976.

There are reports, that U.S.Air Force used certain chemtrails to extend the monsoon seasons in Vietnam, so that the supply roads, which were basicly dirt-trails, after the extended monsoon season turned to mud.

Russians are also doing it - and have been doing it for a long time.

And let us not forget the Chinese - who say, there shall be NO RAIN for Olympics.

Everybody else, who claims that there are no chemtrails is in my humble opinion part of this weather modification programs. Or just does not want to wake up...

Great post springer

I too have heard of the solutions put forward to combat climate change in the form of chemtrails , such as i think it was a Russian scientist said they use certain chemicals in chemtrails to reflect the sunlight back out of the upper atmosphere (i believe they we a reflective substance) and for weather manipulation when special events are taking place as to make it sunny.

I will try to find the link to the above scientists statement!

I belive chemtrails could be used for a multiple amount of uses, such as weather manipulation, sunlight reflection, air purification or to drop harmfull chemicals in the hope of infecting the population below.

Personally i believe they are doing it for the sunlight reflection and the chemicals they are using are not that good for a human beings immune system. I think this due to recent illness's in my home town and in my immediate family all down with common illness's which wouldnt normally fall to. These people are outside for alot of time during the day while ive seen loads and i mean loads of chemtrails intersecting like a chessboard.

Now people ive noticed dont go out that much are fine no problems?
I live in Wales, Uk and id say theres definately something up with the chemtrails.

Thanks
Sostyles

(Update Thanks souljar i believe that is the article i was refering to!:up

[edit on 21-10-2007 by sostyles]

Bravo, I applaud you.

I know I have tried to also awaken people to the fact that Chemtrails are the real deal and people from all over this planet are reporting in with specimens and finding many interesting things.

Rat poison (Barium Salts) for one. When you look up in the evening and see those all so pretty pink/purple clouds. They also have found things like Red Blood Cells, so many things you just can't believe they would do this.

People when taking photo's of these trails have also captured ufo's in and around these trails. The question is are the ships monitoring these trails and collecting specimens and testing them themselves or are they involved.

I have asked people (a few times in different thread) to look up and just observe there skies everyday it only takes a minute here and there throughout your day.

After this became known the peoples studing this found that peoples doing this spraying must have been observing there sites because they started to change there routine in there spraying but this just became a joke in a way.

The junk being sprayed is coming down and it is harming you, your family, your pets. It is harming the air, soil, water.

When Springer mentioned CO2 for example he hit on something major.

I could sit here until I am blue in the face (AGAIN) and tell you this and know you don't believe me when I write that but I am trying my best to warn you of what is happening.

I am a human with an Alien Soul. I have been told over fifty years ago by them that for every TREE that is destroyed it must be replanted ten fold, we had not done this. We as a people are finally waking up but the time is critical and Trees and plants need to be planted xxxxxx's ten.

Have you ever heard which I am sure you have of the TREE OF LIFE.

Trees and plants will clean the CO2 and replenish our OXYGEN SUPPLY. (cough, cough/ hint, hint)

If you want to live I suggest you start planting.

One of many sites on chemtrails to get you started:

groups.yahoo.com...

I really don't mean to sound harsh I am trying to help people even if it makes me sound...........................


[edit on 21-10-2007 by observe50]

Chemtrails are always an interesting topic. I was a frequent visitor to the weatherwars web site by a meteorologist Scot Stevens and was really impressed with his Chemtrails and the Pilots view portions of his web site.

I'm including the web site and hopefully some will critique the photos especially from the Pilots view. If you doubt that chemtrails exist, the photos and fuel analysis will possibly put some doubt in your thoughts. It also mentions that the amount of sun light hitting the earth is down 20% as of the time the piece was written. scientist totally disregard the chemtrail phenom, which may account for the decrease. Anyway check out this web site.

www.weatherwars.info...

Thks Springer

Yes you're right - there are ideas that would involve spraying stuff into the atmosphere.

But, the point here is to show whether the current meteorological explanation is flawed. If it stands up to scrutiny then it means either chemtrails do not exist or what some claim to be chemtrails are not chemtrails.

One of the arguments is that chemtrails - as evidenced by spreading, persistent contrails, are a new phenomena. Does the evidence support this contention?

Is there a problem with the meteorological explanation?

Essan:

Does one obviate the other? I agree with you that the contrail spreading effect is well known and has a mundane explanation.

But.

Living in Huntsville for a while, you see a lot of atypical contrails, and I don't mean the sort that spread as you described.

We were out around the pool one day and watched a couple of non-commercial jets leaving contrails that were hard to believe. I say non-commercial because they were not on the "normal" flight path into the airport and they were looping around the Huntsville/Madison area making figures - triangles, circles, crosses etc. And what was most striking, was that toward the end they were making figures with dashed lines. I'm not sure how you get a dotted line formation with a normal contrail. Now, I'm not saying that the crazy flying over the Huntsville metro area was all that unusual - there are "hotshots" that do that from time to time, we always assumed it was astronauts flying in.

But the dotted line thing was just jaw-dropping. Maybe there's an explanation for it.

Another time we saw (it was about 3 AM) what we counted as four airplanes laying down a very nice crosshatch over the area for hours. I guess that could be explained but it was not only creepy it was sort of attractive in an odd way with the full moon overhead lighting it up.

And last but not least was the jet that laid a trail over downtown - at a low enough altitude that you could read the markings on the plane. No joke, he couldn't have been 1000 feet up. I guess he could have had an oil leak in a turbine, but it was nice and thick with the occasional lumps falling out of the trail leaving a spiral smoke trail.

Anyways, I don't believe the contrail thing by half (I sure don't believe anything on the "carnicom" site as some of the posters do) but those things stuck in my head as being really unusual. Any of them could have mundane explanations but just looked really odd.

Nice topic, since this entire chemtrail thing has me confused about what it is supposed to be.
But I have learned alittle from reading this topic

I have nothing to add I'm affraid other then I have been meaning to post some pictures I took little over a month ago on work, to ask if the clouds (or whatever they are) in the photo's I took indeed is chemtrails. I know this topic aren't for this. But I'm gonna throw them here anyway, instead of starting a new topic just for them..

Anyway here are the pictures. I hope Essan wont mind I post them here.

Chemtrail pictures in Denmark, Jutland

Many Countries are reporting in and tracking these chemtrails and also getting the photo's. If you have zoom try to get close ups because on many occasion ufo's are capturered in the photo's.

I know I have just gotten to the point I now call them the cloud makers.

When you watch TV and they show sky views check them out. If you watch children shows with your kids look and see how they have added these trails in the skies. They have also put chemtrails on the stamp pictures now.

If you really observe you will see how they do things and they make it right there out in the open that when you see it on everything you just take it a natural hence when you look up you don't really pay attention.

They know how we the sheep work and they have gotten away with it but the sheep are waking (slowly)

[edit on 21-10-2007 by observe50]

I have personally seen three planes, flying in delta formation, at very high altitude, spraying something behind them that spread out over time and became some kind of cloud...this is N.C.

Like alot of other topics, if the government would just admit they are doing it, that would dispel most of the speculation.

What is needed is someone to film a time-lapse of a chemtrail being sprayed and show how it spreads into a cloud over time... that would be convincing to the doubters...of course some would claim special effects...

I was the first person to suggest two possible ways to control the HF problems, one via using metals to complex with the HF and weight it down from the skies and the other using the HF affinity toward water and raining it from the skies. In those days, I called these methods "air pharmacology," but the more recent most popularly used term has become "chemtrails." So basically, I was the person that invented chemtrails.
Jim Phelps, Oak Ridge Labs

Chemtrails are real, and people are getting sick from it. An experiment out of control.

I'm offended by your assumption that millions of people are lying about what they are seeing, feeling, and reading.

German meteorologist files lawsuit over chemtrails.
Says he´s got hard evidence.


Youtube

[edit on 21-10-2007 by exo.psych]

reply to post by stompk


What's to be offended about? There are well-known reasons (at least to meteorologists and atmospheric physicists) for "spreading to cover the entire sky" in some circumstances, which may not be all that rare.

It's not so much lying as not understanding what they're seeing. Quite a few people aren't very good observers and have only the most tenuous of grasps on science-based subjects.

[edit on 21-10-2007 by Tom Bedlam]

The first ideas involved putting alumina dusts into the skies and letting that react with the HF in the air. Problems came in the form of limited suspension time and the need to renew it almost daily. So, the next idea was to make the aluminum a component of the jet fuel in commercial planes. Then, the concept for making clouds became apparent. When soluble aluminum compounds are mixed with jet fuels and burned, one gets some alumina dust to react with the H2SO4 in the air and one also gets aluminum sulfate, Al2(SO4)3, which is hygroscopic and retains water molecules becoming Al2(SO4)3*18HOH. It is this effect that produces persistent thick clouds that grow to make more rain.

This discovery became the advent of how to make persistent clouds to set up a sunlight reflecting shield by using the hygroscopic metal compounds to promote persistent clouds. The heart of cloud seeding is these hygroscopic metal compounds that won't evaporate. The metal seeds of water vapor that won't sublime due to their hygrosopic attraction of the seed metal compound. It was this technique of cloud seeding that set up a Mie Scatting reflective layer for the sunlight's IR that could be used to compensate for the upper layer's IR retention problems.

My question is, what happens when the public wakes up to this?

Bush has passed laws enabling him to silence the uprising, with chemicals.

Originally posted by stompk

My question is, what happens when the public wakes up to this?

Bush has passed laws enabling him to silence the uprising, with chemicals.

Actually, if you want to get down to cases, Teller came up with the aluminum trick a long time ago, so Phelps isn't being honest here.

But I'm curious as to your last sentence which doesn't appear to make any sense.

So far no-one has come up with any refutation of the meteorological explanation for what are sometimes called chemtrails .....

The whole point of this thread is to disprove the persistent contrail theory.

So come on .....

Title 50 Chapter 32 Subsection 1520a of the US Code states;
Restrictions on use of human subjects for testing of chemical or biological agents

(a) Prohibited activities
The Secretary of Defense may not conduct (directly or by contract)—
(1) any test or experiment involving the use of a chemical agent or biological agent on a civilian population; or
(2) any other testing of a chemical agent or biological agent on human subjects.

(b) Exceptions
Subject to subsections (c), (d), and (e) of this section, the prohibition in subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a test or experiment carried out for any of the following purposes:
(1) Any peaceful purpose that is related to a medical, therapeutic, pharmaceutical, agricultural, industrial, or research activity.
(2) Any purpose that is directly related to protection against toxic chemicals or biological weapons and agents.
(3) Any law enforcement purpose, including any purpose related to riot control.

Source: Cornell Law Website

Please note the exeptions. Now the code goes on to state the each individual needs prior notifications and Congress need 30 day notification.

But if this is related to law enforcement purpose, or riot control, I.E. unruly protesters, do you think they would give 30 days for Congress to approve, let alone notices to the people being gassed?

Originally posted by stompk

I was the person that invented chemtrails.
Jim Phelps, Oak Ridge Labs

Jim Phelps is a fantasist. But how does he debunk the existence of supposed chemtrails in 1970?

I'm offended by your assumption that millions of people are lying about what they are seeing, feeling, and reading.

I'm not accusing anyone of lying

But why can no-one dispute the meteorological explanation for 'chemtrails'??????

reply to post by Essan


i just watched a ufo film on google this afternoon part of which at the end showed on a weather satellite the contrail of a vehicle that left usa airspace starting from nevada making its way across to the east coast overflying europe ,russiah and then china-------all on the edge of space but not in orbit------the speed of this ufo? calculated at 8000 miles per hour--------the guess given was that it was an aurora mission----- the replacement ship for the sr-71 blackbird.