More details on iraqi abuse by US Army....

Well bro, I have a right to my opinion as do you. The last time I checked this was still a free country thanks to the men who have served in the from WW1 through the present to maintain our freedom. I really dont give a rats arse what you believe. If you thought the people of Iraq lived in freedom, prior to the remove of the bath party and Saddam, then you need to up your medication.



[Edited on 27-1-2004 by dreamrebel]

Originally posted by Jakomo
Satyr: Word, brother. I have three friends who were in Gulf War Part I and it changed them. One of them, Helen, is a total frickin mess because of some of the things she saw and did. The heat of the moment sometimes causes people to do terrible things that they think about for the rest of their lives.

Strange how they become soldiers for life, isn't it? It's like the war is never over for them.

Apparently these pre-emptive strikes can be launched with totally bogus and faulty intelligence, too. How do you think that makes every other country feel? Go on, try.

That is the worst thing I see happening here. When it's that easy to justify a war, we're all in trouble. Who's next? You know it's going to be someone, right?

Originally posted by dreamrebel
Well bro, I have a right to my opion as do you. The last time I checked this was still a free country thanks to the men who have served in the from WW1 through the present to maintain our freedom. I really dont give a rats arse what you believe. If you thought the people of Iraq lived in freedom, prior to the remove of the bath party and Saddam, then you need to up your medication.

[Edited on 27-1-2004 by dreamrebel]

It's a fact that most of the world does not live in freedom! It's not our place to remedy the entire world! We have enough problems with our own freedoms being slowly taken away, and this is only helping to further that agenda. Are you really that blind?

[Edited on 1-27-2004 by Satyr]

Not blind. We see things differently. I have friends who died in 9/11. We are at war with entites that seek our destruction. If they have thier way all freedom will be gone and the USA destroyed. In its place will be muslim dictators. You will live under isalmic law the sharia. To me that is not freedom, that oppression. I respect your view. That is what makes our country so great, the fact I we can disagree with ourselfs and government without being killed or beaten like is the case else where (afganistan under the taliban or Iraq under saddam). Just ask the kurds how much freedom they had.

Frankly, I don't care how much freedom the rest of the world has. That's their problem, just as our freedom is ours. What you're not seeing, is that our freedom is being exchanged for a false sense of security, which you'll soon find out is only in vain. As far as America being taken over by Muslims, it'll never happen. We just outnumber them too heavily. Even if they were here in full force, they wouldn't be able to retain power over damn near 500 million people who don't agree with them. That's not even a logical debate. That's not even realistic enough to be considered a threat.

Occupation is not what Im talking about. How about 10 nuclear bombs going off in our largest cities. The us economy would crumble instantly. I do not doubt for one second that Osama would light those puppies off in a hearbeat if he had them. Further if some lunatic like Saddam or N Korea or Libya or whoever were to sell them to fundamentalist muslim fanatics. Those people would kill you in and in the name of wahibism and allah. I for one refuse to sit around passively waiting for the next 9/11 or for them to spray ebola on the salad bar in sizzler. I am of the opinion we need to be proactive not passive. If you think this was all cooked up and executed by our own government, then thats your opinion.

The answer to the problem is to simply have elections, then get out very soon afterwards. There will be no legitimate force to secure Iraq until it is give power by a representative administration. When the legitimate government is installed American forces can be withdraw in stages. Replacement of occupational forces with citizens workers could move very quickly, but only if the administration is Iraqi elected.

Paul Bremmer is not an Iraqi, and would not get a single vote in any Iraqi election(Saddam would...), yet he is the ruler.

All the fluffy feel-good talk of liberation means nothing until it is reality.

Please do not forget that they heard that line before. When the British occupied after defeating the Ottomans in WWI they siad the same things.

Claims of 'Liberation' were made then too. Followed by years of brutal occupation and ethnic cleansing including gassing thousands of Kurds.


Iraq is not liberated until America leaves. Now that Saddam is captured and we all know that the stories of WMD were all lies it is time to end the conflict by removing the source of the conflict which is the occupational forces.

Maybe we could apologize on our way out too.

Clarifications

There are no terrorists attacking our soldiers in Iraq. When they put on their uniforms the soldiers cease to be civilians. The ones who attack the civilians are terrorists, but their motivation is to end collaboration with the occupation. There would be no collaborators if there was not an occupation in the first place.

There are no insurgents in Iraq because there is no representative government to rise up against.

There is a popular uprising against an unjustified invasion of their nation.

They are freedom fighters. As long as we are there they do not have freedom. They would not, and could not be fighting against us if we were not there.

I agree with most of that. We did what we needed to do. Cant stay forever. Need to put a represenational governement with a constitution to guarantee freedom of persecution of minorites, which will be the kurds and sunnies. Pure vote puts the Shiites in power. We need to ensure they dont abuse the rest of the citizens of Iraq! But then leave.

I agree with most of that. We did what we needed to do. Cant stay forever. Need to put a represenational governement with a constitution to guarantee freedom of persecution of minorites, which will be the kurds and sunnies. Pure vote puts the Shiites in power. We need to ensure they dont abuse the rest of the citizens of Iraq! But then leave.

I agree with most of that. We did what we needed to do. Cant stay forever. Need to put a represenational governement with a constitution to guarantee freedom of persecution of minorites, which will be the kurds and sunnies. Pure vote puts the Shiites in power. We need to ensure they dont abuse the rest of the citizens of Iraq! But then leave.


Sorry for the triple post my comuter froze and I hit the button three times!!!

[Edited on 27-1-2004 by dreamrebel]

Where did everyone go?

There are quite a few countries who may have reason to nuke us. Actually, there are countries that actually have nukes who may have reason to nuke us. Our job, first and foremost, is not to get involved with them at all. That way, there would be no reason for them to hate us. Saddam doesn't hate us because we're Americans. Saddam hates us because our gov't has interfered too many times. Osama hates us for the same reason. We #ed that up ourselves, in allowing our foreign policy to become what it is. Not changing our foreign policy is not going deter future terrorism. In their eyes, our policy just got 100 times worse. Therefore, their hatred for us got 100 times worse. We're just asking for it, and frankly, I wouldn't blame them for attacking us again. If the shoe was on the other foot, what the hell do you think we would do? We don't allow other countries to determine our decisions, do we? If I've said it once, I've said it 10000 times....we should not be policing the world.

[Edited on 1-27-2004 by Satyr]

The term terrorist is so broad and can be used for so many things. A War on "Terror" is an unending, unwinnable war.

You can never eliminate all terrorists, there are always two sides to every dispute and each side can accuse the other side of using terrorism (9-11 was a terrorist act, so was ignoring the UN and dropping tons and TONS of military ordnance on Baghdad (a city of 4 million civilians) --- both acts instill terror on a civilian population for political or radical purposes). Just look at the Israeli-Palestinian crisis, they are constantly painting the other side as terrorists, and using it to unleash a seemingly eternal cycle of violence and horror on each other.

The US can stop terrorism by stopping it's double standard. If a nation, no matter how evil or corrupt, allows itself to be exploited for corporate US greed, it's okay. Carte blanche to totally repress its' entire population, as long as there's some good cheap Nikes coming out every Thursday. If it's a country that's not willing to whore itself to multinational corporations, add it to the Axis of Evil.

Yes, I'm talking to you, Cuba.


Archangel: Great GREAT post. One of the best I've read here.

What about if we actually addressed the concerns of the "terrorists" bent on our destruction?
Since we can label anyone a terrorist and there seems to be a never ending supply of people...
Most radical Muslims would be content with the US owning up to the dirty tricks they've been involved in the last 60 years in the middle east. Maybe if we stopped militarily and financially supporting the brutal and repressive Saudi Arabian Kingdom, maybe if we stopped arming Turkey and its violent repression of the Kurdish people, maybe if we stopped arming and financially supporting Isreal, maybe if we owned up to overthrowing the Shah of Iran, maybe if we owned up to supporting a puppet government in Kuwait, maybe if we let the people living in the middle east actually own and profit from THEIR natural resources we wouldn't have been attacked!
What do think? Think maybe they might have some legitimate issues???
Think there's a reason why the people of this region fought off the Mongols, Christians, Russians, British and now the Americans. Think they're going to roll over now???

Their problems need to be addressed. Their concerns need to be brought to the light of truth. Most of the imperial motives in the mid-east have been about resources and money...the same people who control what you read, watch on TV and 'sadly' what you think. Think they may have a vested interest in calling them terrorists?

Whats a resistance fighter? Whats a terrorist?

Are we thinking yet?


There is no enemy anywhere - Lao Tse

Are you insane? That would require them admitting that these things were wrong!

Good post!

[Edited on 1-28-2004 by Satyr]

That was perfect.

Good post Mr Doom! We need to do both, change our foriegn policy but also take action against people who pose immenint threats to my momma, your momma, my wife, etc... I really dont want to sit back doing nothing while plotters reek havok. many will never be satisfied. Yes change the policy to alleviate future problems and address legitimate concerns, but dont be complacient and blind to reality that we may always be the bullseye no matter what changes are made.

Originally posted by dreamrebel
Good post Mr Doom! We need to do both, change our foriegn policy but also take action against people who pose immenint threats to my momma, your momma, my wife, etc... I really dont want to sit back doing nothing while plotters reek havok. many will never be satisfied. Yes change the policy to alleviate future problems and address legitimate concerns, but dont be complacient and blind to reality that we may always be the bullseye no matter what changes are made.

It must be rough, living your life in fear like that.

I do not live in fear. I sleep well every single night. The only time things like this even come into my life are when I get to play armchair quaterback with gentlemen like yourself in a forum.

Then why are you so supportive of pre-emptive war? That doesn't make sense, unless you're consumed with fear. You'd rather attack countries that you think MIGHT attack you someday? How in the hell is that bettering our foreign policy?