It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Are Parrots Sentient?

page: 2
2
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jan, 26 2004 @ 07:50 PM
link   
how do you know they don't know why they don't want to die? If they've lost their owner or mate, then they know why they don't want to live.Can you tell me why you don't want to die? do you really know any more than any other animal?




posted on Jan, 26 2004 @ 07:56 PM
link   
Yes I do.(As above) I want to see how my children raise their children, I'm SURE that no other species on the face of the planet thinks in the same manner. They only deal with survival.



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 02:10 PM
link   
Am I to understand that as a human being, I'm a sential being because I know 'why' I need to survive and exist? If you have the answer to that one you should publish it.
Maybe the problem isn't with the species on this planet being on a lower rung of intelligence because of communication skills, but because we haven't learned to understand them.
Refer to Carl Sagan's 'Dragons of Eden'.



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 03:58 PM
link   
Were aware yet not aware enough to deal

www.sheldrake.org...

with the fact that we only communicate with our hands and limited vocal abilities... We mastered flight and song by copying birds but offer what in return?

Our opposing thumbs have lent too much of the decay of the planet. The great apes awareness is to only of one self and one self’s ability to try and contain and control resources and other life forms. So much so that we refuse to believe that any other creature can communicate, or be aware, or suffer loss. Why does the parrot even bother trying to learn our form of communication? Hell most birds hear ten notes of sound for our one, we are lame an un evolved in comparison.

www.whybirdssing.com

Why should they have to slow down and deal with our limited sound making abilities? How many years you been flying great ape? Just over 100! Try thinking in terms of singing for communication, and flying for over 100 million.
The lives of most birds are so fast paced and dangerously exciting that they experience the equivalent of a full human lifetime in a few years. They are highly keyed with faster pulses, higher temperatures, quicker sight and hearing, and there actions are often at pace humans can not follow with there eyes. Birds build, use tools, and use language.

Self aware, if we are so self aware then we would do something about mass extinction.

Or your out-dated theory will be right and the only self aware creature around will be you.

I live with parrots and have done work with wild birds they are more aware then a lot of the people I have known. Hey and they are better looking too!!



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 04:45 PM
link   
Intrepid-

We are not the only ones living to see the lives of our children. The common crow has a tighter family bond then most human families and has much more leisure time then we do to boot. Since we can't communicate with them we have no way of measuring there happiness or self awareness, but ABC the other night said 80% of Americans suffer from at least one form of mental illness so it is pretty clear how happy we are...

Stats from the book www.amazon.com...

Crows mate for life and are known to die when the other mate dies (same as most parrots) not the same as people.
Crow families stay together per generation with the parents raising the youth and staying together for life, and the brothers and sisters often remaining together for life. Crows pass on language, tool usage and social hierarchy.
Crows on average spend 40% of there life’s hunting, gathering, mating. The rest is spent in play and socializing. (Not at all like people. Think of the time you spend working and providing for a family.)



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 05:40 PM
link   
Animals seem to have a full range of intelligence that we are only now getting a grip on. Although I tend to think humans are smarter than most or all animals I also think the difference between us and many animals may not be as destinct as we think. Because we can manipulate objects with our hands unlike most other animals we have developed a sophisticated culture. I wonder however if other animals had such hands if they would have the brain to do similar things.

On language: It is becoming apparant that language itself is not a sign of a higher level animal. Researchers are showing in various studies that a host of animals have language, even animals we think little of. I saw a show on Prairie Dogs where the researches had identified a spoken language in their squeaks and pips that was translatable and predictable. They had a series of nouns for describing objects especially other animals in their environment. They used adjectives to modify the nouns. Their adjectives seemed to include color descriptions. They used the language primarily as a part of a security system where "sentry" Prairie Dogs would cry out what they had observed to other Prairie Dogs. The warnings would either tell the other prairie dogs if an approaching animal was friend or foe. I was inmpressed that the prairie dogs had a word for bird and a modifier for the word that meant bird of prey. In a similar way they had a word for man and a modifier for man with gun.

Despite language similarities however there does seem to be uniqueness to the human mind we have yet to see in animals. The primary thing I have seen in this area was that although we can teach human language to other animals they seem to not be able to make art beyond the level of about a human four year old. If you have kids, think about when your kid was three years old. You can have a conversation with your three year old but give that child plain paper and crayon and you get no circles, happy faces, or anything beyond lines moved back and forth. The chimpanzee or gorilla will do the same thing. That child however by the time they reach five will draw real pictures that you can see as people etc. No animal including the other great apes have ever been able to do this. Maybe a dolphin could if they had hands but for now we do not know.

At this point language seems a lower level mental skill maybe widely held in the animal world. Being able to see the world and interpret it in a visual form for others to see at this time seems uniquely human.


apc

posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 06:35 PM
link   
There is only one thing that seperates us from the rest of the animal kingdom.
Reason.
Everything we have learned, understood, and gained through communication, has been the result of our ability to reason.

Parrots, cats, dogs, bunnies, chipmunks, all think just like we do (in pictures, words are one floor up). Thinking visually is the most basic and primitive form of thought. However they lack reason. If something is about to fall on a dog's head, it tends not to realize it until it actually falls. They cannot understand all the environmental variables of the world around them, and therefore cannot reason the outcome of a particular set of variables, beyond conditioning.

Why did Pavlov's Dog start drooling? Were it's salivatory glands conditioned to spontaneously activate when the bell rang? No. The dog's mind was conditioned to associate the bell with food. When that bell rang, immediately in it's head it pictured food. What do we do when the whistle blows at the end of the day? Why we slide down our brontosaurus (YES it was a bronto!)
and pedal on home the whole time visualizing our meal to come.

All living creatures, with brains, are fundamentally the same.

And they taste great, too.



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 06:48 PM
link   

Originally posted by apc
Parrots, cats, dogs, bunnies, chipmunks, all think just like we do (in pictures, words are one floor up). Thinking visually is the most basic and primitive form of thought. However they lack reason. If something is about to fall on a dog's head, it tends not to realize it until it actually falls. They cannot understand all the environmental variables of the world around them, and therefore cannot reason the outcome of a particular set of variables, beyond conditioning.


That's just because they don't understand what's going on in the environment they exist in. Actually, only a few thousand years ago humans were in the same situation. They invented "gods" to explain everything back then.

Also, check out this article on parrot intelligence:

Alex the Parrot


apc

posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 06:55 PM
link   

That's just because they don't understand what's going on in the environment they exist in. Actually, only a few thousand years ago humans were in the same situation. They invented "gods" to explain everything back then.

Im referring rather to things like gravity, fire, etc.
Ever see a cat knock something off a table, and then be dumbfounded as to why it's down on the floor?
Or hold a book over a dog's head and it just stands there until you drop it.
This is what I mean by environmental variables. Not just 'What is lightning?'



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 07:16 PM
link   

Originally posted by DeusEx
Self aware....self aware is the concept that there is an I pronoun. The being can say "I am..."

And no, your parrots aren't aware of their own existence. It isn't something they question or even think about.

DE


So personality traits are not a sign of self awareness? How one animal reacts to a situation compared to another animal, does not show individual characterists which represent self-awareness?


Uma

posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 12:18 AM
link   

Im referring rather to things like gravity, fire, etc.
Ever see a cat knock something off a table, and then be dumbfounded as to why it's down on the floor?
Or hold a book over a dog's head and it just stands there until you drop it.
This is what I mean by environmental variables. Not just 'What is lightning?'


Yes, but dogs and cats can learn. If you drop a book on a dogs head a few times, they will try to get away. I could do the same to a 3 year old, and they wouldn't try to get away either, at least not for the first time.

I understand that many wild animals are afraid of fire, which is more than I can say for people. Also, I have seen dogs push things, to get at something (use of gravity), ring doorbells, open the front door, and answer the phone. That shows that they have some understanding of cause and effect. For example, "If I push the button a bell will ring and the people inside will come out". I didn't teach the dog that, it figured it out on it's own, unfortunately.

Also, I have seen parrots that seem to have language. Much smarter than my cat who knows 2 words, 1) Wanda (her name, I didn't name her btw) and 2) food (she is a cat after all)!

My friends parrot knows the name of family members, and is able to name what they are doing without being asked.

I.E.

"Cathy is making dinner"
"Todd is smoking"
Cathy is smoking"
"Brian is not here"
"Todd is here"
and my favorite "shut up"

I've also heard that another parrot wolfwhistles only at women and not at men. I don't know if they have tested it with men in drag or whatever, but that would be interesting.



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 12:55 AM
link   

Originally posted by Flinx
So, if an "animal" can actually speak English (not just repeating) doesn't that qualify them as a sentient creture? Wouldn't this mean that we have AT LEAST two intelligent species on this planet?


Is the ability to speak English the litmus test? How many humans don't speak English I wonder...

Unless you invoke ancient superstitions involving gods and souls, I see no reason to think other creatures don't have consciousness. Even within humans, consciousness is not a binary function, but a gradual function. We experience various degress of ut ranging from almost none during non-REM sleep, to a pseudo consciousness during REM sleep, to fully conscious, and states in between depending on our physical state.

Even within waking humans, some people seem to operate on autopilot most of the time, while others carefully think through everything. Within waking humans, we seem to posess varying degrees of consciousness.

So why do we think it is different among animals? Even ants could have some degree of it.


Urn

posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 03:18 AM
link   
the way i see it, if an animal can recognize its self in a mirror, then it is definatly self aware.....

my cat, (as well as almost every other cat i have seen, aside from very young kittens) can recognize herself in a mirror by the way...


apc

posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 08:07 AM
link   

Originally posted by Urn

Yes, but dogs and cats can learn. If you drop a book on a dogs head a few times, they will try to get away. I could do the same to a 3 year old, and they wouldn't try to get away either, at least not for the first time.

This is primarily conditioning. It's the same with humans. We are conditioned to associate sounds with meaning forming words. Although the line between learned knowledge and conditioned information is a very blurry one, and the debate rages on.
That the dog (and the infant human) do not realize the very first time that something is about to knock them on their melon, shows this lacking of mental ability. Eventually (within a year or so) the human brain will develop to where the person will be able to extrapolate what will happen, having zero experience with the same situation. The dog will never do this.



the way i see it, if an animal can recognize its self in a mirror, then it is definatly self aware.....

my cat, (as well as almost every other cat i have seen, aside from very young kittens) can recognize herself in a mirror by the way...

I've never really gotten this whole argument for self-awareness.
Animals recognizing/not recognizing themselves does not show self-awareness, rather whether or not they are able to comprehend that this flat object in front of them is actually reflective. Moreso, whether they comprehend what a reflection is. Personally, my cat completely ignores his image in the mirror. He wont even acknowledge his reflection. I have seen other cats go crazy thinking there was another cat in the mirror. Yet others have just sat and stared at themselves. Does this mean some cats are more advanced mentally than others? The ones that recognize themselves are prodigal cats? Well I don't really know... you'll have to ask them.

From what I can tell, cats and dogs (and nearly every other species with a brain bigger than a peanut) are very much self aware. Again using cats an example, the fact that they will hide behind objects when stalking prey shows they are able to empathize the viewpoint of the prey. They know "If my body is behind this, it can't see me."



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 01:48 PM
link   
I must say I dig this thread-

Here is a far out thought- Evolution is a slow working process with many variables coming into place, things that are way beyond my knowledge. I do know that animals have used us as tools for survival almost as long as we have been in existence. The modern dog is a perfect example of this. Could it be that the parrot is in fact evolving in ways that help it progress in its own survival? Parrots exist in an environment that is being rapidly depleted some of them have found ways to coexist with human development such as the Rainbow Lories of Australia while others are just disappearing off the map. Most nations still allow the importation of parrots as part of the pet trade and these birds tend to pass off generations that are raised at birth by humans. This has been past down by several generations now. Could the birds be using there ability to sound like and communicate like us as an unknowing asset in there survival like the dog did by accepting fire and helping us hunt?

Could we be seeing other species go through a state of rapid evolvement in our life time? Maybe we are the North American version of the parrot, the crow and raven was nearly wiped out in the 1800’s and mid 1900’s. The species was depleted in the millions and was only a countryside and mountain species. The species now numbers in the millions and has migrated into man made cities and every other setting we exist in and is using us as a means of feeding itself and for safe dwelling. It now has very few predators and is at the top of the food chain. The species has adapted to our conditions and has changed by using us.

Is the usage of complex language a part on the next step in the equation of evolving and are we just starting to see this now?



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 02:26 PM
link   
I also made that connection with the whole evolution thing.. interesting. It shows how complicated it is, not everything smart is human-looking.

Also, Are parrots really as smart as children? I mean wow, no need to brag but kids must be really stupid.. I remember being self-aware and thinking about stuff long before I could talk, like 11 months or so. I know that sounds really weird, but It's true. I mean I remember being stupid, but like my brain worked the same way as it does now, I just know more stuff and think more complex. Wow, that sounded like bragging. But not many people can honestly remember themselves as a 1 year old.

Anyways that's the conciousness I'm talking about, wow, It's hard to imagine that in a parrot. This parrot really does seem like any kid at about 4 or so.

This is way too cool.

AND EXTREMLEY CREEPY AS HELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!


[edit on 8-6-2005 by Ksnazdnzon]

[edit on 8-6-2005 by Ksnazdnzon]


Uma

posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 03:03 PM
link   
I just wanted to point out that having a memory of anything before the age of 3 or 4 is really unusual for a human, unless it is a tramatic memory.

i.e. I remember almost drowning at age 2. However I know that I was definitely not self aware at the time. I just remember falling into the pool and how bright the light was. I don't even remember my mom fishing me off the bottom of the pool. I guess it must have been pretty quick, because I don't seem to be brain damaged (some may disagree I guess :lol
.

Anyway, I have difficulty understanding what animals are trying to communicate. The fact that they can understand some of what I say is definitely a + in their column for intelligence, and a - in mine.



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 03:10 PM
link   
The deference’s may be in the terms of how we perceive conciseness to be in our evolved state of reality in comparison to birds/parrots. We rely on entirely different portions of the brain than birds do we use the cerebral cortex for high order thought and brain power. Birds use the hyperstriatum which we mammals lack, it is one of the reasons birds appear to have such small brains but yet somehow be capable of complex actions. We have a hard enough time dealing with how we humans make out reality let alone how a bird would.

There perception of reality/conciseness is completely alien to us we lack the ability to hear or see what they do and most importantly we lack the ability of applying the simple rules of harmony that they are the masters of. Birds taught us harmony and song yet we have not evolved enough to take the principal of harmony further into our lives as a species. We still live in a state of disharmony with the world around us, almost like a drunken Polish jazz band spinning out of endless noise control. We put money down to save the wet lands so that we have something pretty to shoot at. Yet we then say we are above animals and we go and preserve are animalistic rights to kill them. We eat they, eat I see no problem with that. I just don’t think we are that high and mighty above other living creatures and I believe that we are not nearly as evolved as we could be. I also believe that there are other species making leaps in evolution and we are not alone.

We are not there yet in terms of our own evolution to deal with, the very concepts that we have created, nor the tools that we have created. All of our greatness and sole means of placing our species above others has left us in a state of emptiness. We would rather spend billions out in space for the search of another being that looks better in the mirror next to us then accept the fact that we are apart of a natural working system that works best with the simple nature of harmony.



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 03:41 PM
link   
Peregrine, there is a lot that you have said that I don't give much thought to. I think you may have opened my mind up a bit. I was thinking about what you said and starting thinking ..

We as Humans strive to show that we are different and superior to our ecological (for lack of a better word) friends. We think up crazy theories and try to communicate with other worldly beings. When to find our true existance you must look at whats right under our noses. Who are we to say some animals don't have a sense of perception and conciousness.

I think we as a species have much to learn before we can total enlightenment with our surroundings.

That was a new deep expirence that I've never pondered about before, thanks for sharing.



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 03:55 PM
link   
I knew birds were smart, but...damn. : P

media.ebaumsworld.com...

media.ebaumsworld.com...



new topics

top topics



 
2
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join