Are Cattle Mutilations Real?

In my case, being raised around and on farms and ranches, it is mainly experience and knowledge that holds me back. The photo's you show of the "Mutilated" cow on one of your other threads tell me a different story than the one you present.

The udder missing indicates either Wolf or Coyote predation and is a classic example. The same with the rectum and vagina. Predators access the internal organs and soft tissues first. Those are the classic entry points.

The fluid missing from the eyeball would be normal as well that is indicative of insect predation on the carcass. Ants can do incredible damage to a carcass in short order as well as many other insects that feed on a fresh carcass.

Other items generally listed in these supposed Mutilations nearly always mimic normal, natural predation of a carcass. The soft tissues are always the first to go. The mouth area including tongue, eyes, belly tissue (udder in this case) and anterior orifices are some of the first to go. The soft tissues of the belly and rectum / vagina are the best route for a predator such as a Coyote to enter the body cavity with the least effort.

The appearance of being "Surgical" incisions is always the case. When the skin dries, which can happen quickly in warm weather, it shrinks. After it shrinks even jagged wounds stretch and appear smooth. Being a Hunter and having tanned hides, I know this to be a fact.

I'd say these are the reasons this whole concept gets little support. When it is suggested to Ranchers that Aliens may be Mutilating their Cattle they start noticing these things not realizing that it is normal because they never paid attention to the process before. It's kind of like a mass hysteria.

I looked into this in way too much detail years ago and found there was no there, there. The whole thing seemed to trace back to one hysterical Veterinarian who was not qualified to do a Post-Mortem on Livestock in the first place. It was a horse in that case as far as I remember. The Urban Myth then spread to Colorado and was injected with a catalyst in the form of a News Reporters sensationalist reporting. Then as I recall a Sheriff looking for notoriety spread the Myth even further. I also recall the number of Cattle deaths that season were below normal, not above.

What evidence do you have the things I say are not true and when you research a carcass do you employ a Veterinarian qualified to do the post-mortem?

If these mutilations are the result of scavengers, Where is all the blood?
Many cases seem to show that the blood was drained somehow. www.ob1.com...



And also in many cases, bones are broken as if dropped from some height.

en.wikipedia.org...

Also in many cases, scavengers and predators refuse to even go near the carcases.

[edit on 16-10-2007 by whaaa]

When I look at the photo's posted by John I see the same things I've seen on every carcass of a dead cow I've ever seen more or less. For instance the side of the head with the lips and soft tissues having been scavenged. I think what fools most people is the straight edges of the what looks like incisions. Not so. It only takes a day in the sun to shrink the hide enough to make jagged edges appear perfectly smooth while the hide is still attached to the body. That carcass was fully bloated and it can not be fresh.

When Cattle die naturally, which happens all the time, they are free of Human smell. Once the body is handled by Humans many predators like a Coyote will shy away from the carcass. Since the carcasses being watched to gather that information were probably handled an sampled prior to observation that is not that strange. To hunt Coyotes you have to use a scent to hide your own scent to even get close to one. I know I've done that many times.

The carcass in Johns photo's is not fresh as evidenced by the decay around the mouth area which looks perfectly natural.

A wolf, of which there are many where I live now, can do that much to a carcass in a couple of hours. They usually return later for more. Just before I moved here some well meaning tree huggers released Wolves from Canada just south of there in Idaho. They have killed a lot of livestock. The indigenous Wolves (yes, I said Indigenous - you have been fed a huge lie about the Wolves in Montana and Idaho being gone) probably did not take well to the interlopers. Wolves ALWAYS GO AFTER LIVESTOCK! Like all other animals they go for the easiest food supply. A cow in a fence is far easier to catch than a Elk in the wild.

The reason I brought up the Wolves is not long after they were released I saw one take down a Calf almost 150 miles from where they were released in Yellowstone. That was years ago and they have probably spread out many miles by now. That part of Montana would be a likely spot to find one. If they have a Wolf taking out their Livestock the Ranchers would be livid. They would do or say anything to recover the lost money. One cow down is easily a thousand dollars gone. Ranching is bare survival at best. If a small Ranch or Farm looses a few Cattle to a Wolf, Wild Dogs or Coyotes it can break their financial backs. Besides a good Yarn is always great entertainment over a beer at the local Bar. That Farmer would be a local celebrity.

reply to post by whaaa


I just sent an email to the City Offices of the town in the Press Release on your first link to verify the names and voracity of the content. I'll let you know if I get an answer.

reply to post by Blaine91555


"When I look at the photo's posted by John I see the same things I've seen on every carcass of a dead cow I've ever seen more or less." Wow - You must have been present at a lot of classical mutilation sites. May I ask which one and what evidence did you have analyzed?

As far as experience goes - Both the rancher and sheriff have lived the ranching area for most of their lives. The two of them have dealt with numerous animal range deaths before. They know what predation looks like. They are experienced wildlife observers. To insist that these are simply normal animal deaths and carcass decay is insulting to the men and women men who work their whole lives on ranches and/or law enforcement. Your statement is ridiculous and almost unworthy of a response.

To say that the rancher would financially benefit by saying that his cow was killed by humans is not true. There is no livestock insurance that covers mutilations. Quite contrary to your statement, if a rancher loses livestock to wolves, there are avenues of financial compensation. Both these individuals are targets for ridicule, such as that that you present here.

AS far as bloating being evidence of an old carcass - Extreme bloating occurred almost immediately after death. The flesh was still wet when the cow was discovered the morning after it was killed and it immediately bloated, some ranchers observed that it was far more than usual.

Animal bites? No way! Ask any rancher or wildlife expert and they will tell you the same thing: Even though an animal carcass has been handled by humans, predators will still feed on the flesh. Try it for yourselves. Take a piece of meat, handle it all you want, then throw it to a wild predator - I guarantee you that they will eat it when you are not around. To say otherwise is ignorance of animal behavior or a purposeful attempt to mislead the public.

Some of the photos that I have shown were taken some three weeks after the cow was discovered. The photos taken by the sheriff and his deputies clearly show a clean line of termination where flesh was taken from the cow. It would be best of you opinions were based on the original, one day old law enforcement images, not those taken later on.

When an animal such as a wolf eats, it doesn't use a knife and fork! It bites, pulls, tears, shreds and rips apart the flesh! We've all seen it on TV in shows like the National Geographic or on the Nature Channel. Even when it is predator related tearing, the wounds never retreat beyond recognition to a clean, line with no interior scrapes, nicks, breaks or teeth marks.

The three scientists from the ranching area of Florida, that the Discovery channel arranged to have look at the samples, have all reported that the original incisions were not made by animal predators. As experts in biology and animal behavior, their observations would be more technically accurate than those of the average layman.

Additionally, the sheriff and rancher said that when they found the cow, only hours after it had been last seen, the cuts were still fresh and wet. There was no time for the tissue to recede due to normal decay or dehydration.

Your comments about soft tissue entry by normal predator action is correct. Eyewitnesses living around the remains of this cow, however, report that no predators would eat this carcass for many months after it was discovered, PERIOD! This is anomalous wildlife behavior and it has never been explained, even people trying to debunk this mysterious activity.

In closing on this post, it should be pointed out that the veterinarian who performed the necropsy on cow # 62, and the three scientists that analyzed the tissue samples, have investigated many predation cases before. Given their education's and accumulative experience in the field of biology and animal behavior, their observations would be considered expert testimony in a court of law. Could the same be said of someone looking at photos on the internet? No offense intended here, but it's a good point.

Obviously, you have all the answers and are working hard to debunk classical animal surgical operations. It sounds like you are a candidate for Phil Class's position in the UFO-Mutilaltion mystery community. Individuals like yourself are obviously smarter and more skilled in forensic science and first hand observations than law enforcement and biologists. How silly of researchers like Linda Moulton Howe, Christopher Obrien to be chasing around eaten animal carcasses for reasons of celebrity! How remarkable - We must be idiots because we have never spoken to someone as rational, clear headed and experienced in animal deaths as yourself. Bravo for you!

BTW: As far as "Whaa's" posted question about the lack of blood on scene - The wolves must have used a straw while they sipped and dinned in the moonlight! What clean table manners!

Some photo samples of coyote predation. Not very surgical in appearance.

Personally, I lean towards Black-Ops. Exactly who & why? Sorry...dunno

never mind


[edit on 10/17/2007 by Blaine91555]

reply to post by OBE1


Actually the photo in the top right corner shows how they enter the body cavity through the soft tissues. In this case the anus and genital area.

Originally posted by CryptoHunter
reply to post by Blaine91555

 

"When I look at the photo's posted by John I see the same things I've seen on every carcass of a dead cow I've ever seen more or less." Wow - You must have been present at a lot of classical mutilation sites. May I ask which one and what evidence did you have analyzed?

I had to think about this paragraph for a bit before I responded. Ignore my other posts and remove this thread. I don't react well to sarcasm and you don't like questions. It is for the best.

Originally posted by Blaine91555

Originally posted by CryptoHunter
reply to post by Blaine91555

 

"When I look at the photo's posted by John I see the same things I've seen on every carcass of a dead cow I've ever seen more or less." Wow - You must have been present at a lot of classical mutilation sites. May I ask which one and what evidence did you have analyzed?

I had to think about this paragraph for a bit before I responded. Ignore my other posts and remove this thread. I don't react well to sarcasm and you don't like questions. It is for the best.

I didn't think it was sarcasm. Seemed like a perfectly valid question to me and if this kind of questioning bothers you maybe it is best if this thread is closed as you seem to have an aversion to certain lines of inquiry.

OK, I'll play.

No I've never seen a classic Cattle Mutilation because I believe they are pure fantasy. I have however seen many dead Cattle. There are always a few when they are rounded up from BLM Land. No two were exactly alike. The ones that fit this description the best were from mainly Scavenging Birds and smaller animals. I will agree those photo's did not look like a Coyote had worked on them.

How do you know for a fact this was not a set up by a Rancher near Bankruptcy? Before you flame me for that statement remember I grew up with these Good Old Boys and I've Dickered Toe to Toe with them many times. Have you proved beyond a doubt this was not a prank? When you grow up in the Country life is boring. I know I was one of them.

Have you ever examined a really fresh example or are they always old. In warm weather flesh decomposes really fast. The hide starts to shrink within hours. I am right about how after the hide shrinks the edges of even jagged wounds look smooth.

All the evidence presented here is some pictures with no close ups of any detail. I was hoping Mr. Rhodes would post some better Photo's or evidence. He said the photo's were taken after the Carcass hat sat for a while. Why are there no pictures immediately after the Carcass was found? I got deep into this stuff in the 80's and I believed it at first. Then I realized there just is no evidence and now I'm kind of confused as to why this Conspiracy Theory even exists. The rash of reports back then easily tracked to a Hysterical Veterinarian who examined a dead horse, a Reporter in Denver who wanted notoriety and a fame seeking Sheriff (Deputy? can't remember, getting old). There was no there, there. I remember a couple of the cases were some kind of Ritualistic stuff. One in the South and one in Canada if memory serves. I also remember part of the cause was Veterinarians who had no qualifications to do the work of a Forensic Pathologists.

Having been raised around Farms and Ranches I know for a fact they will go along with anything if there is a buck in it. Hence, my skepticism. I personally think things like this and the Reptilians (or whatever they are called) detract from the validity of things that have evidence. For instance I have no doubts about the existence of UFO's for which there are many credible witnesses.

Another thing that bothers me after reading the reply. The Cow was bloated like it had lain for a while. I think you mentioned that you were told something about it being more bloated than normal when it was fresh. How hot was the weather. What takes a couple of days in cool weather takes hours on a hot day.

How did you come to know about this. Were you summoned to help or paid to investigate? Did you already live in the area? Were the locals aware of you and your work?

To continue this thread I would ask that Mr. Rhodes, if he would be so kind, post copies of the Forensics Reports and the Credentials of the Veterinary People who conducted the work. I just hung up from a Veterinarian Friend in Idaho who tells me these people are rare and mostly work with Horse Racing. Apparently the need for experienced Forensic Pathologists is not really there. Thoroughbreds and Quarter Horses for Racing and Show Horses like Arabians are so valuable that it justifies the field more or less.

Don't misunderstand my intentions. If you can prove to me there is something out of the ordinary going on here I will admit I am wrong in a heartbeat. I'm on this board because it gives both sides an opportunity to debate with the other instead of being a bunch of people who believe the same thing agreeing with each other. How boring and useless is that? Only through this type of discussion can any truth be found. I think people who just want to hang out with people who agree with them are just a vehicle for spreading Myth's.

***A Note to Whaaa,
What are your thoughts?
That city in Alabama has not responded to my request yet. I'll keep an eye out for an email. I hope they respond.




[edit on 10/18/2007 by Blaine91555]

You know, I have seen the phenomenom of "cattle mutilation" explained on NGC.
There was a group of people that really wanted to proof that the mutilation is actually a natural occuring thing. All it takes is a fresh cadaver and maggots.

They purchased a dead cow from a farmer and lay it down on the field somewhere. After hours, the carcass was swerming with flies who were laying their eggs all over. At night, the eggs hatched, and the maggots started eating away the soft parts of the body, like the eyes and around the eyes, the lips, the anus and udder. Thats also where the flies had leyed their eggs, since no open wounds were available.
The way the maggots ate away the flesh looked very similar to the "surgical" manoevers the alians perform on the cows. You cant see any blood cause corpses dont bleed. You dont see footprints, or cuts, or anything.
In the morning the carcass looked like it had been mutilated.

I dont know what to think of it, but this program was prolly especially made to explain the phenomenon as natural, and has got nothing to do with aliens...Tell me what you guys think of it.

Originally posted by LeopardSeal.
I dont know what to think of it, but this program was prolly especially made to explain the phenomenon as natural, and has got nothing to do with aliens...Tell me what you guys think of it.

Do you think that Ranchers and vets that have seen many cattle that have died can't tell the difference between an anomalous mutilation and a cow that has been eaten by maggots? Maybe we should give the people that raised the animal a little more credit.

Is it possible that maybe some agency's want to keep secret their experimentation on cattle that doesn't belong to them?

www.gallupindependent.com...

[edit on 9-11-2007 by whaaa]

Originally posted by whaaa

Do you think that Ranchers and vets that have seen many cattle that have died can't tell the difference between an anomalous mutilation and a cow that has been eaten by maggots? Maybe we should give the people that raised the animal a little more credit.

[edit on 9-11-2007 by whaaa]

Yes I do think that. In fact I'm sure of it. Nobody pays attention to those details until someone plants an idea in their heads. The other problem is Veterinarian's thinking they are qualified to do a Post Mortem.

A good example would be a happening in a City I used to live in. At one end of town in an Agricultural area they built a Brewery for a large company. The waste water was harmless but they drove it to fields to be dumped because it had value as nutrients for the soil. It was even sterile and safe to drink. One day a valve broke and it spilled in front of a Mobile Home Park on the Highway. Immediately many of the residents went to the hospital, some in an ambulance, complaining of sickness and all sorts of ill effects. Even after they knew the truth they proceeded with lawsuits. They never made it to court and the company got nailed with the attorneys fees for the false lawsuits. These people believed they were sick. Why? One resident who saw the spill planted the idea in their heads. I think the same thing is in play here.

I still don't see any credentials listed for who did the Forensics work after the fact.

I apologize for having forgotten about this thread. I should have participated right after posts.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
The other problem is Veterinarian's thinking they are qualified to do a Post Mortem.

If a DVM isn't qualified to do a post mortem on an animal; then who the **** is?

And as far as planting ideas in rancher's heads....

You don't know many rancher's do you?

reply to post by whaaa


No need to get rude.

Ask your own GP if he/she is qualified to do a post mortem for a Court Trial. He/She will say no immediately. Animals are no less complex. Just try and get your GP to do Brain Surgery on you A Postmortem requires multiple labs, people and specialties.

I don't get why the reports and credentials have not been posted to this thread yet????????????????????

Originally posted by whaaa

You don't know many rancher's do you?

My Father was youngest of 11 children. All born on a Ranch. 9 men who all at some point ended up with either a Ranch or Farm. We had Fruit Orchards and a little Livestock. I spent time on some of my Uncles large Ranches and spending time means you do the work along with everyone else.

My Mother was the youngest of 12 children. I was exposed to and spent time on 4 very large Farms in Idaho. They all had Livestock.

What exactly is your experience based on?

When you find a dead Cow you don't exactly give it an external examination. You say "Oh #" and get to work figuring out how best to move it to a location were it can be picked up for disposal. When you find them at Roundup on BLM land, if it is isolated, you ride right by and leave it lay for the bugs and scavengers. You try to get a count but that is about it. Plant this idea in a Ranchers head and they will break the normal pattern and closely inspect seeing normal insect activity and normal predation as something unusual. No big mystery.

Originally posted by Blaine91555

What exactly is your experience based on?

I grew up on a section, north west of Lubbock, Texas and I still own the place but it is now leased to another rancher.

Maybe the ranchers in Idaho are more easily influenced than the one's in Texas; as Texan country people,
are the most stubborn humans on the planet and planting ideas in their head is next to impossible.

For you to think that Ranchers can't tell the difference between predition and surgery borders on your ideology getting in the way of common sense.

I guess we are gonna have to agree to disagree on this subject.

Peace and Love
whaaa

Who is behind the Cattle Mutilation? Doubles, Clones & Aliens:
battleforworld.tripod.com...

Main:
battleforworld.tripod.com...