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Black & White Holes Singularities

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posted on Jan, 25 2004 @ 02:46 AM
I know similar discussions of Black Holes and even White Holes have been brought up here before. I have also played around with the idea on my own from time to time but I've never come across any theory or research in terms of "White Holes". Until now...

Anyone who has ever pondered about Black Hole Singularities, Wormholes, etc. has most likely thought about what or where they might lead or open up into. A Black Hole that sucks in Everything with forces that overpower even Light itself would logically seem to have a possible White Hole exploding out the other end, maybe in some alternate Universe, Dimention, Time or even a far off location within our own universe. Science Fiction or Science Fact? Well, a little bit of both I guess, for now let's just call it Science Theory!

Universe Born In A Black Hole?
Source: University Of California - Davis
Date: 2003-09-17

The universe may have been created by an explosion within a black hole, according to a new theory by two mathematicians recently published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the U.S.A.

"It's a mathematically plausible model which refines the standard model of the Big Bang," said Blake Temple, professor of mathematics at UC Davis and co-author of the paper with Joel Smoller, professor of mathematics at the University of Michigan.

In the standard model of cosmology, the universe burst into existence with the Big Bang about 13 billion years ago. Since then, the universe, which contains an infinite amount of matter and is infinite in extent, has been expanding in all directions.

In the new model, the Big Bang is an actual explosion within a black hole in an existing space. The shock wave of the explosion is expanding into an infinite space, leaving behind it a finite amount of matter. The universe is emerging from a white hole. The opposite of a black hole, a white hole throws matter out instead of sucking it in.

The shockwave and the universe beyond the black hole lies in our future. Eventually, the universe will emerge from the black hole as something like a supernova, but on an enormously large scale, Temple said.

The equations that describe a black hole were written by Albert Einstein as part of the General Theory of Relativity. Einstein's equations work equally well if time runs forward or backwards. But explosive shockwaves, which include an increase in entropy, are time-irreversible. The new theory satisfies Einstein's equations while allowing the universe to expand.

Whether the matter emerging from the white hole came from matter that previously fell into another black hole is an open question, Temple said.

"It is natural to wonder if there is a connection between the mass that disappears into black hole singularities and the mass that emerges from white hole singularities," Smoller and Temple wrote.

What is a white hole? (Ted Bunn, 1995)
The equations of general relativity have an interesting mathematical property: they are symmetric in time. That means that you can take any solution to the equations and imagine that time flows backwards rather than forwards, and you'll get another valid solution to the equations. If you apply this rule to the solution that describes black holes, you get an object known as a white hole. Since a black hole is a region of space from which nothing can escape, the time-reversed version of a black hole is a region of space into which nothing can fall. In fact, just as a black hole can only suck things in, a white hole can only spit things out.

White holes are a perfectly valid mathematical solution to the equations of general relativity, but that doesn't mean that they actually exist in nature. In fact, they almost certainly do not exist, since there's no way to produce one. (Producing a white hole is just as impossible as destroying a black hole, since the two processes are time-reversals of each other.)

What is a white hole? (Karen Masters, 2002)
The short answer is that a white hole is something which probably cannot exist in the real universe. A white hole will turn up in your mathematics if you explore the space-time around a black hole without including the star which made the black hole (ie. there is absolutely no matter in the solution). Once you add any matter to the space-time, the part which included a white hole disappears.

What would a white hole look like if it did exist?
The people/person who came up with the term 'white hole' was actually being quite literal. A white hole is pretty much like an 'anti-black hole'. A black hole is a place where matter can be lost from the universe. A white hole is a place where (if it could exist with any matter in it - which it can't) matter would pop out into the universe. This has many similarities to the Big Bang singularity.

Something Interesting to think about
It has been suggested by Stephen Hawking that once quantum effects are accounted for, the distinction between black holes and white holes is not as clear as it may seem. This is because of Hawking radiation which shows that black holes can lose matter. A black hole in thermal equilibrium with surrounding radiation might have to be time symmetric in which case it would be the same as a white hole. This idea is controversial, but if true it would mean that the universe could be both a white hole and a black hole at the same time. Perhaps the truth is even stranger. In other words, who knows?

Schwarzschild wormhole

The Schwarzschild metric admits negative square root as well as positive square root solutions for the geometry. The complete Schwarzschild geometry consists of a black hole, a white hole, and two Universes connected at their horizons by a wormhole.

The negative square root solution inside the horizon represents a white hole. A white hole is a black hole running backwards in time. Just as black holes swallow things irretrievably, so also do white holes spit them out. White holes cannot exist, since they violate the second law of thermodynamics.

General Relativity is time symmetric. It does not know about the second law of thermodynamics, and it does not know about which way cause and effect go. But we do. The negative square root solution outside the horizon represents another Universe. The wormhole joining the two separate Universes is known as the Einstein-Rosen bridge

Kruskal-Szekeres spacetime diagram of the wormhole

The Kruskal-Szekeres coordinate system is arranged so that the worldlines of radially infalling (yellow) and outgoing (ochre) light rays lie at 45 degrees.

The white hole is the region at the bottom of the diagram, bounded by the two red antihorizons. The black hole is the region at the top of the diagram, bounded by the two pink-red horizons. Both white and black holes have singularities at their centres, the cyan lines. The regions at left and right outside the horizons are the two Universes. The two Universes are joined by a wormhole, the region of spacetime between the white hole and black hole singularities.

As long as the inhabitants of the two Universes remain outside the horizons, they cannot meet or communicate with each other. However, the inhabitants can meet after falling into the black hole. Having met, they also soon meet the singularity.

For more information on Black & White Holes, Singularities, Wormholes, etc. Including more Graphical Examples and Theories, check out this link...

posted on Jan, 25 2004 @ 03:10 AM
Wow! That's a feast for thought! I hadn't heard of white holes before. Very interesting to say the least.

posted on Jan, 25 2004 @ 07:42 AM
Also why do Black Holes suck matter in and why do White Holes deposit matter out?????

why not other way round?

Also whats all that dark matter inour universe that scientist's claim to see into them now and it contains mirror images of our own galaxies????

Could they be Wormholes looking ointo future or past of our own Galaxies????

posted on Jan, 25 2004 @ 08:20 AM

Originally posted by blobby
Also why do Black Holes suck matter in and why do White Holes deposit matter out?????

why not other way round?

Also whats all that dark matter inour universe that scientist's claim to see into them now and it contains mirror images of our own galaxies????

Could they be Wormholes looking ointo future or past of our own Galaxies????

Lot's of good questions bobby. Let's take em one at a time.

1.) Why do Black Holes suck matter in and why do White Holes deposit matter out?

What is a black hole? Ted Bunn
Loosely speaking, a black hole is a region of space that has so much mass concentrated in it that there is no way for a nearby object to escape its gravitational pull.

How is a Black Hole Made? (Karen Masters, 2002)
Black Holes are made when very large stars die. When the star runs out of fuel for nuclear burning in the core it is no longer able to support itself from collapsing under its own weight. The star first collapses and then the outer layers rebound to form a supernovae explosion. What's left at the core is a Neutron Star or a Black Hole depending on the initial mass of the star. To form a Black Hole the mass left at the core after the explosion must be more than about 3 times the mass of the Sun. The star for most of its life probably needds to be between 50 to 100 times the mass of the Sun to eventually form a Black Hole.

So in simplest terms, the "Push or Pull" is the effect of Gravity determined by the objects Mass.

2.)Why not other way round?
What's the point? Why not call an apple an orange and an orange and apple? The fruit doesn't care since it is us that decides it's name so WE can understand it. So therefore there is the answer, it's how we decided to classify them. Also "Black Holes=Pull or Suck" because that is their function. Their Gravity Attracts or Pulls Matter into itself. Even Light, which makes it Dark or Black, hence a black hole. As far as the White Hole, just think of it as a reverse Black Hole. Also see the first post under the section "What is a White Hole?"

3.) Whats all that dark matter inour universe that scientist's claim to see into them now and it contains mirror images of our own galaxies?
Now that is a good question. Personally I do not yet know what effects Dark Matter may have with a Black or White Hole. I can think of some fun Theories however, but I won't cloud the issue with my own Sci-Fi Ideas at this point. I will look around and see what I can find though!

4.)Could they be Wormholes looking ointo future or past of our own Galaxies?
That is exactly what some theories seem to be saying. Some seem to think they Span some distance of Time but without space, some think they span distance of Space but without Time, some think Both would happen as Time-Space is thought of as joined but perhaps in Relative Ways dependant on the Observer. Some think that Mirror Universes are joined by wormholes. Those other Mirror Universes can range from Opposite reflections of this one to Multiverses of Various infinite possibilities of this one. Wormholes have many theories from the types I mention above to theories that say they don't exist at all. For example: Here is a theory of how it exists yet remains impossible to ever travel through. (What a Bummer!! The Cosmic Tease!!)

Impossible to pass through the wormhole

Unfortunately it is impossible for a traveller to pass through the wormhole from one Universe into the other. A traveller can pass through a horizon only in one direction, indicated by the yellow arrows. First, the traveller must wait until the two white holes have merged, and their horizons met. The traveller may then enter through one horizon. But having entered, the traveller cannot exit, either through that horizon or through the horizon on the other side. The fate of the traveller who ventures in is to die at the singularity which forms from the collapse of the wormhole.

The traveller can however see light signals from the other Universe.

The trapped region between the two horizons is the Schwarzschild bubble encountered on the trip into the black hole.

posted on Jan, 27 2004 @ 04:26 AM
not nessacerily, quantum wormholes are thought to be much smaller than even protons and electrons, and until now no one has modelled what happens when something passes through one.

They have found that any matter travelling through adds positive energy to the wormhole. That unexpectedly collapses it into a black hole.

But there's a way to stop any would-be traveller being crushed into oblivion. And it lies with a strange energy field nicknamed "ghost radiation". Predicted by quantum theory, ghost radiation is a negative energy field that dampens normal positive energy.

Ghost radiation could therefore be used to offset the positive energy of the travelling matter, the researchers have found. Add just the right amount and it should be possible to prevent the wormhole collapsing - a lot more and the wormhole could be widened just enough for someone to pass through.

It would be a delicate operation, however. Add too much negative energy, the scientists discovered, and the wormhole will briefly explode into a new universe that expands at the speed of light, much as astrophysicists say ours did immediately after the big bang.

But sending a person would be another thing. To keep the wormhole open wide enough would take a negative field equivalent to the energy that would be liberated by converting the mass of Jupiter.

posted on Jan, 27 2004 @ 03:01 PM
As you get closer and closer to the center of the hole, though, you start to feel "tidal" gravitational forces. Imagine that your feet are closer to the center than your head. The gravitational pull gets stronger as you get closer to the center of the hole, so your feet feel a stronger pull than your head does. As a result you feel "stretched." (This force is called a tidal force because it is exactly like the forces that cause tides on earth.) These tidal forces get more and more intense as you get closer to the center, and eventually they will rip you apart.

For a very large black hole like the one you're falling into, the tidal forces are not really noticeable until you get within about 600,000 kilometers of the center. Note that this is after you've crossed the horizon. If you were falling into a smaller black hole, say one that weighed as much as the Sun, tidal forces would start to make you quite uncomfortable when you were about 6000 kilometers away from the center, and you would have been torn apart by them long before you crossed the horizon.

Instability of the Schwarzschild wormhole

The embedding diagram of the Schwarzschild wormhole illustrated at the top of the page seems to show a static wormhole. However, this is an illusion of the Schwarzschild coordinate system, which is ill-behaved at the horizon. The Kruskal spacetime diagram reveals that in reality the Schwarzschild wormhole is dynamic, and unstable. The tremendous gravity impels the wormhole both to elongate along its length, and to shrink about its middle.

The yellow arrows indicate the directionality of the horizons. A person (or signal) can pass through a horizon only in the direction of the arrow, not the other way. There is a certain arbitrariness to the shapes of these embedding diagrams - the spatial geometry at a given `time' depends on what you decide to label as time, how you slice spacetime into hypersurfaces of constant time. The inset shows the slicing for the embedding diagrams adopted here, drawn on the Kruskal spacetime diagram.

link to a bunch of various types of Black Holes and Wormholes with mpeg and mov examples.

[Edited on 27-1-2004 by mOjOm]

posted on Jan, 27 2004 @ 03:30 PM
OK, Im not so sure of what I am about to say. Here goes. (I am probably worng on this)

If a black hole opens up into a white hole on the other end, in which light and mass would be projected outward, how would the black hole retain enough mass to mantain itself?

I don't know much about white holes at all, other than hearing the term, so I definitely dont know the physics and math behind it.

posted on Jan, 27 2004 @ 05:23 PM
that is a very good point? maybe the 2 are in synchronization? what goes in goes out and no more??? just a rough idea

posted on Jan, 27 2004 @ 05:40 PM
Hey, I remember reading something about this a while ago. It was in a book about the universe, and it was in the elementry section of our school library. At least, I think so. I remember it because of the colorful picture of the budding universes.

posted on Jan, 29 2004 @ 05:53 AM
Hmmm i had a thought, you know insteller nothing blackness of divide between galaxies, well maybe there are blackholes there that have eaten as much as possible leaveing a space of nothing no light thats why large parts of space are black, there is meant to be a super massive blackhole at edge of our milkey way thats dead it ate all it could around it then exhausted itself leaveing a black nothingness around its space, i presume if you went near it it would suckyou in, could explain why large parts of space are voids of nothingness??? and explain why space is black as a whole cause blackholes are sucking most light out of universe as a whole? possible whiteholes from other universes deposit light into our universe i suppose not sure, so our universe could be littered with blackholes, and can we cant see them cause they are black of space, but we can detect the tale tale signs of them though.

posted on Jan, 29 2004 @ 07:55 PM
but we only see light when it reflects of somthing right?? or can we see light if it were travelling through a vacume with no matter to rebound off. Thats why you cant 'see' light in a vacume but u can see the things it rebounds off.

posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 09:54 PM
for your thread i can add a couple of observations. one good and one potentially bad.

when i was browsing memory alpha or beta i came across an STNG episode synopsis where the crew discussed escaping a black hole event horizon by a specific pattern of directed energy at it. a year or so later i tried to find it again and i didn't thanks to google...

but i did find an actual paper on doing the very same thing. there was a scientific paper on using electromagnetic energy to temporarily destroy the event horizon of a black hole. don't ask me to try to find it again but its there if you want to look for it. that would make poking about in a black hole somewhat less lethal.

the not so good point; the article i linked to in my own thread? well it means a black hole might not lead to anywhere else. some might. but they don't have to because the opening can be at the end of it's time line back into the place it came from.
edit on 29-7-2014 by stormbringer1701 because: typos

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