Is Communism really that bad?

reply to post by Clearskies


Its a logo from a CD by a (now broken up) band called Aus-Rotten. The actual saying is "People are not expendable, Government is"

Its in connection with a song about restricted immigration.

If you like crust-core/political punkm you'd like these guys. Otherwise, i doubt you'll like em.

Originally posted by InSpiteOf
heh, only problem is, I think the same about Capitalism.

Well if you think of it in those terms, Communism is Capitalism where the government has a monopoly enforced by military power on price fixing, jobs, wages, supply, demand, and everything else.

That's all that "socializing" an industry does - give the government a monopoly. But a government monopoly can be destructive in more ways than even the most evil, monopolistic CEO could even imagine.

Originally posted by deathpoet69

 

what is it then if its not communism?.

What you are describing is called fascism and/or totalitarianism. Since fascism is the antithesis of communism it's no where even CLOSE to "communism."

Originally posted by deathpoet69
In my world if i was head and some will prob comment en go well Wundt live in your world then, that's great

I'm going to try to do a point-by-point rebuttal, but I'm probably going to run afoul of the message character count. But here goes...

Originally posted by deathpoet69
1. one partner in life for sexual intercourse.

What does THIS have to do with communism or any other kind of governmental system? Also, who decides who marries/partners with whom? What happens if one partner dies? What about people who have a "non-standard" preference? How do you intend to deal with the fact that most anthropologists agree that homo sapiens is NOT a "naturally monogamous" primate? Wouldn't it be better to ensure that everyone has the maximum freedom to find their own form of happiness regardless of how they organize their sexuality as long as no one hurts a child or any non-consentual partner?

Originally posted by deathpoet69
2. control on drugs and within a controlled environment and only for positive course's

Since virtually ANY substance can be abused and the definition of "drug" is rather broad (did you know that vitamins are technically "drugs"?) this is also a rather odd choice for a manifesto point. Besides, when the U.S. tried Prohibition all that happened was the creation of organized crime. Didn't do a damn thing to make people stop drinking. In fact, if I remember correctly, all that it did was INcrease the percentage of people binge drinking.

Originally posted by deathpoet69
3. chop tongues out of people who dismiss peoples personality or opinions.

Wow. You were seriously bullied as a kid, weren't you? Isn't this a bit ...ah... extreme for this "crime"?? Besides, when personal expression is suppressed to the level this would lead to the kind of "false civility" actually increases the incidence of sociopathic behavior. q.v., Victorian England.

Originally posted by deathpoet69
4. chop hands off for thieves and give them robotic arms that we control so we know they wont steal again a bit like a tag.

Um...wow... Again a bit too extreme. Besides most major "thefts" don't require "hands" these days. Or does your "utopia" also dispense with all kinds of high technology. Oh, wait...that's right...they'd have a remote-controllable robotic arm! Also, wouldn't that rather unfairly stigmatize people who had lost an arm or hand from strictly accidental means?

Originally posted by deathpoet69
5. money is stopped, everything material shall be given free people will work to give to each other, if they become selfish they are put in a mental institute for depriving others.

Phew...you're really quick to demonize anyone who deviates from your "norm" by even the slightest bit. If you think people will work "just because" I have several case studies that prove that people will only WORK when they HAVE to. And if you say these people are "selfish" I hate to tell you that that means that you would have far MORE people INSIDE your insane asylums than could be cared for by the tiny minority that are so altruistic.

Originally posted by deathpoet69
6. control food

How? What is to stop the people who grow the food from hoarding some for their personal consumption? More insane asylums? You seem to think that "food" is some kind of uniform resource and that there's no difference in production from someone trying to grow food in a desert and someone growing food in rich, river bottom land? [to be continued...]

Originally posted by deathpoet69
6. control food

[continuing] Also, most economists agree that there's really no "food shortage" per se. What the problem is is a lack of "food transportation" or the use of food by individual or governmental groups (q.v., Somalia) to CONTROL the actions of people. Centrally planned economies (which is what would be required to "control food") are notoriously inept at producing agricultural surpluses and controlling the distribution and production of food. When the erstwhile Soviet Union relaxed its central control on the kholkozi (collective farms) and allowed each farmer to take a small plot and keep and sell the produce of that plot individually, these small plots (and we're talking along the line of kitchen gardens here) outproduced the "planned" farms by a factor of 10.

Originally posted by deathpoet69
7. make the west build homes in africa if they refuse, in prison them.

'Scuse me? Where the HELL did this come from? Why should the "west" (or any other group for that matter) build homes in Africa? Most of the violence in Africa is tribal (as in the Tutsi vs. Hutu in Rwanda). If you're going to do this, should "the west" also build homes in Bangladesh? How about Central America? Heck...how about the Rosebud Oglalah Sioux Reservation in South Dakota?? You are exhibiting both myopic and misguided logic here.

Originally posted by deathpoet69
8. debunk all military assets, if its a lone country make all countries disarm.

Lovely thought. However, since it would take some manner of military power to do this (not to mention that it really doesn't take a high level of technological skill or resources to make "arms") it would be practically unenforceable. Besides, to use the over-used cliché, "[arms] don't kill people, PEOPLE kill people."

Originally posted by deathpoet69
9. mediation and spiritual awareness is crucial in schools.

It is? Why? Some of the meanest spirited and violent people I've ever met were outspoken fundamental Christians who claimed to pray several times each day. Meditation and spiritual awareness is something that cannot be imposed from without. It can only be discovered and nurtured from within.

Originally posted by deathpoet69
10. school is a choice but must learn the basics of spiritual well begin and why it is important to be GOOD to each other.

Oh good...so they'll be all warm and fuzzy but can't even read a sign to tell them where to go to "be excellent to each other"... And remember, party on, dude!

Originally posted by deathpoet69
11. depopulate the world (which i think now has a good idea in most case's)

Well, since you'll be running around chopping off hands, and tongues, and putting people into mental institutions if not shooting them outright because they're not building houses wherever you think they should be doing it, I guess this won't be as hard as it sounds. *sighs* Besides, between global pandemics (i.e., AIDS) and "low-intensity" warfare we're well on our way to doing this on our own.

[to be continued]

Last part, I promise...

Originally posted by deathpoet69
12. Put paedophiles' in zoo's with guerrillas raping them.

Okay, first of all, it's GORILLA if you're talking about the animal. I can put up with the bad grammar and mis-spellings, but I wasn't sure at first if you were referring to the animal or to individuals involved in low-intensity or "irregular" warfare.

Dammit...go to www.dictionary.com... if you're not sure how to spell something...PLEASE!!

Now, to be more serious (if I can even stomach the thought of using that adverb in this context), while I can see the potential amusement value of this, you would have to train the GORILLAs and I can't imagine PETA or their "your world" equivalent would support this too long. I don't know where you get your ideas that gorillas would naturally assault (sexually or physically) anyone much less pedophiles but they don't. Mature Silverbacks WILL do what are referred to as "threat gestures" when someone (be it male, female, or little green men) invade their territories, but they actually aren't violent.

Originally posted by deathpoet69
13. one world peace, peace has to be controlled.

Wow..for a minute there I thought I was listening to old Nazi Germany tapes... 'Nuff said.

Originally posted by deathpoet69
14. homelessness is band and so is mortgage and tax etc, everyone lives well.

I will agree that homelessness is bad. What I will argue is that most homelessness is caused by economic or social dysfunction. What actually causes most people to be homeless is mental disease or addiction. NEITHER of which is "solveable" by the kind of totalitarianism you're advocating.

Originally posted by deathpoet69
no elections, no debates. no power to the people, give people the power to do certain things and they abuse it.

Ya wohl mein Fuhrer! Sofort mein fuhrer! Sieg heil!

*shaking her head sadly at how IQs have apparently dropped into the low double digits these days*

Originally posted by tenryuu
What you are describing is called fascism and/or totalitarianism. Since fascism is the antithesis of communism it's no where even CLOSE to "communism."

Well just to comment on that, communism is an economic system, totalitarian statism is more on the social liberties scale. But communism really is very conductive to and pretty much requires a very powerful state, a power that would often lead to such a thing. It's very hard to have a communist system, the absence of the right to property and other economic liberties, but with social freedoms.

Really this deathpoet guy is poorly educated and believes in a one-world government, slavery of entire peoples, the eradication of all liberties, both social and economic... I could go on. It's hilarious, but also kind of scary - the ignorance required is astounding.

Originally posted by tenryuu
*shaking her head sadly at how IQs have apparently dropped into the low double digits these days*

Dont worry, there are still some of us who attempt to put thought into our posts.

Despite our differences, JohnMike and myself have kept up. what I would consider, an intelligent conversation.

Nice critique by the way.

I believe that yes, Communism is a beautiful theory. but however, sadly I also believe that it is unachievable among society. You need a mass uprising of the people, not a dictator, or one person telling you to do it. Such as what Karl Marx stated when he wrote the philosophy.

And today, I think it is unachievable, as we have been given such a bleak picture of it. No one is good enough to give up material possesions and money..Society is not nice enough to be able to cope. For communism to work, everyone really has to agree and there always has to be someone who wants to seize power

I believe communism is not the best system of government. I do not believe capitalism is either, but I believe it represents the better of evils when considering the utilitarian gain from society.

This is not to purpose capitalism does not fail - it fails, and it fails often. In academia they are called market failures, and they occur when:

(1) Consumers do not have complete and perfect information about market transactions
(2) Competition fir any one product does not exist or is not sufficient to cause actual price wars
(3) Consumers or producers do not act as individuals and begin acting as groups
(4) Any information is withheld for strategic purposes
(5) Consumers or producers begin acting irrationally and not in their own best interest

And there are several other market failures, those are just the ones off the top of my head. Of course, these failures happen often in reality, and I advocate for government intervention when these market failures occur. A government can force competition by dismantling monopolies, provide infrastructure to provide more complete information to citizens (BBB, etc.), regulate the actions of groups that are manipulating the market, mandate that certain information be disclosed to citizens (car safety information, etc.), and penalize/reward behavior through taxes to force people to act rationally.

I recognize that government interventions often fail spectacularly, but I would submit that the mere fear of government intervention is often enough to force people to act according to free market theory.

'Tis not the best system, but it's the best we've got - and far better than communism, in my opinion...

reply to post by Mr Jimmy


Also you would need an omnipotent economic dictator, which is impossible, not counting God (or whatever you want to use as an Omniscient being). So really a centrally planned economy is not just impractical, but impossible, as it would destroy the "invisible hand."

reply to post by Johnmike


exactly, in one way its more or less a flawed idea.

If you lokk at history, all of the countries that claim they are "communists" , are really fascist! So don't even try to let anyone say it's evil or doesn't work because no one exept mabe Ommish people can say it does or doesn't.Besides, it only sounds evil because in your subconscience, you still probably remember someone telling you "it's sooo evil!!!"

i still cant beleve that some people actually believe in communisms ideas. for those who actually believe in communism, OPEN your eyes, and try to name one communism sytem that worked. One more thing to add, for those who believe in socialism(obama supporters) communism got started because of socialism. almost every society that was a socialistic society led to be a communistic society .

Stop confusing Communism with Dictatorship or thinking that Capitalism = Democracy !

Want capitalism ? Go be a 1900 worker with no rights to vacation, pension, and if you get injured you are fired. And you work as many hours as the boss wants - lets say 12, and you are paid just enough to not die of hunger you and your family.

All these rights you have today at the work place are because of workers like that who revolted. Do you think they were trying to start dictatorships and jail and kill millions ? No, but that's how it turned out to be, humans are not good enough to live like true communists.

And see China - a capitalist dictatorship
Communism and Capitalism are economic systems
Democracy and Dictatorship are political systems.


[edit on 24-10-2008 by pai mei]

FORMER YUGOSLAVIA = GREATEST FORMER COMMUNIST COUNTRY UNDER THE RULE OF JOSIP BROZ TITO. " For the people and the peace " was our motto. We received free health care, generous and guaranteed pensions, best passport in the world, freedom of bare arms, no homelessness, guaranteed jobs, and we challenged the Soviet Union due to Stalin's ignorance by trying to tempt TITO join Yugoslavia and USSR together. Oh, and we shot down a few American scout planes.

The most important political ideal in existence, has all but completely left
this world. This ideal goes something like this:

"The government must not exist to lead the people, it must exist to serve them."

This ideal must be brought back into our world, and it must be upheld
always, that is the only way to ensure that life on earth, is worth living.

The first priority of any government must always be the making sure
that all citizens live in a paradise-like environment and situation. This
world has enough resources and capabilities to allow all 7 bilion people
to live life like in a paradise, where they not only have everything they
need to live a happy and careless life, without having to work for it,
but even everything they want.. including any luxury imaginable.

The amount of resources and technology that is being withheld from us
humans, is mind boggling. Endless resources are being destroyed as
to prevent prosperity, countless technological inventions are being nipped
in the bud or destroyed, as to prevent our lives from improving through
their use.

It must change.. we must change this. We have the responsibility to
change this, so the next generations may finally live the life that was
intended for them.

In the world we were meant to live in, work is just an option. Something
you do because you want to do it, because you enjoy doing it. Not some-
thing you're forced to do because otherwise you'd starve.

[edit on (8/1/09) by Wehali]

Considering how many people from former Communist countries are now staunch Conservatives, I would say yes, Communism really is that bad!

These are the folks we/you should be listening to if you want your question answered.

In a perfect world, it would be great. Since it's not a perfect world and people are greedy and mean and selfish, it can never work.

But it works great hypothetically.
I call myself a hypothetical communist.

I actually love the idea of communism – from the vague understanding that I have of it. So everyone has equal wealth fantastic! When I discuss this it’s always mentioned if we all had perfect equality of wealth, no one would won’t to work and the economy would go bust.

Well we live in a democracy and still people don’t won’t to work, there’s no difference. As soon as most people make enough money to be content with, they never work again. And of course there are those who choose the easy but illegal way through drugs and murder to make money. If they and everyone else had a substantially same amount of wealth there’d be much less crime.