God Tells Lies

posted by _Mr.X_
Before I reply I must ask, why are you so angry with God?

That, Mr X, is an old debater’s trick. To shift the issue. Change the topic. If you were Catholic, I’d label it “Jesuitical” but I sense you are not Catholic, but rather you seem to be a “pick and choose” Protestant. I base that on your apparent affection with some carefully chosen verses in Deuteronomy. A "what's your verse" type of gospel. Deuteronomy is surely a laborious read in 2007!

Q. As also commanded in Deuteronomy, are you equally willing to stone an adulterer? Or to take an unruly child to the city gates and stone him to death? No juvenile delinquency in old Israel! On what grounds do you invoke some verses of Deuteronomy but ignore other parts that are not convenient for you today? Did GOD tell you this, too? Hmm?

And Mr X, you have an excuse for everything. Like Pollyanna who tells the man who just lost his 2 feet when run over by a train, “Good News Sir! You need buy no more shoes!” Sorry if I missed your particular faith.

Lets look at that "top 10" list of things God can't do..

1. God cannot kill himself.
2. God cannot run time backwards.
3. God cannot reveal the future. (who says He can't. He let me know about 9/11 before it happened . . )
4. God cannot cure the faint, lame or halt, lest He empty the hospitals.
5. God cannot communicate precisely (3 major faiths and infinite PsOV).
6. God cannot restore life (raise the dead).
7. God cannot bring peace to the world.
8. God cannot feed his subjects.
9. God cannot prevent hurricanes (Katrina) nor tsunamis (Boxing Day) or California wild fires or droughts in the Southeast.
10. God cannot prevent frauds using his name.

Now If your going to attack God, as least know your facts and try to understand why He does what HE does..

No, Mr X, I am not a child. I find only your #3 retort of sufficient interest to merit a response. As soon as you have elaborated on your claim of prior special communication with the Divine One relative to the Nine Eleven Event, would you then tell me
A) Who Really Shot Kennedy? And
B) Where is Osama bin Laden?

King David is generally accepted to be pure ancient Hebrew myth as were also King Saul and King Solomon. As for the Exodus, it is very unlikely the Hebrew people were ever in Egypt in any substantial numbers. More likely the story is the common human trait to want to be associated with the great and near great. The Israelites, a lowly semi-nomadic herding people fresh out of Mesopotamia would have regarded Egypt with awe.

Even before there were Israelites, Egypt's accomplishments were already legendary. The greatest on earth and looked it! Imagine the Great Pyramid sheathed from top to bottom in white limestone and capped by a layer of gold extending down some 20 feet on each side! Even to have been a slave in Egypt is OK if you can claim to have built the Great Pyramid. Phooey! Stories for children. Stories told around endless campfires as the shepherds kept their flocks. And etc. Your empty denials fall without conviction on deaf ears.

[edit on 10/28/2007 by donwhite]

Marketing is NOT a lie! But rather a highly underutilized talent by the primal-indigenous and zorastrians. Come on true believers, get with the program. Sharpen thy sword and cable access skills and covert some Christians to Rastafarianism. Before it's too late!!! Souls to save, so much to do. Busy, busy, busy. Hang on, Buddha on the other line.

Christianity: 2.1 billion

Islam: 1.5 billion

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion

Hinduism: 900 million

Chinese traditional religion: 394 million

Buddhism: 376 million

primal-indigenous: 300 million

African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million

Sikhism: 23 million

Juche: 19 million

Spiritism: 15 million

Judaism: 14 million

Baha'i: 7 million

Jainism: 4.2 million

Shinto: 4 million

Cao Dai: 4 million

Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million

Tenrikyo: 2 million

Neo-Paganism: 1 million

Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

Rastafarianism: 600 thousand

Scientology: 500 thousand

Originally posted by RANT
Marketing is NOT a lie! But rather a highly underutilized talent by the primal-indigenous and zorastrians. Come on true believers, get with the program. Sharpen thy sword and cable access skills and covert some Christians to Rastafarianism. Before it's too late!!! Souls to save, so much to do. Busy, busy, busy. Hang on, Buddha on the other line.

Christianity: 2.1 billion

Comprised of nearly 38,000 denominations (wiki)

Islam: 1.5 billion

4 major branches - hell knows how many divisions within each

Hinduism: 900 million ...

...Scientology: 500 thousand

Of the other religious faiths we also find division.
So stating that christianity is the biggest religion is a fallacy due to there being an average of 60 thousand people in each denomination. I know this is not the reality of it but it still shows that even christians can't decide what to believe - and they expect us to convert (get a decent religion that everyone agrees on and I might consider it but there is absolutely no chance of that happening is there?)

So it would seem that the non religious are the majority so why do the religionites seem to think they have some sort of authority to interfere?


So if there is a god he does seem to do a good bit of lying when the majority of people dont believe in it and the rest are so confused they can't even agree.


G

posted by shihulud

posted by RANT
Christianity: 2.1 billion

Comprised of nearly 38,000 denominations (wiki)

shihulud So it would seem that the non religious are the majority so why do the religionists seem to think they have some sort of authority to interfere?

Organization. The religionists are organized. We non-religionists are not. We are content to leave each person to his own conscience, while they are insistent on imposing their POV on us. Barely 500 years ago they burned us dissenters at the stake, or broke our bones on the rack. I guess there is some progress being made?

shihulud So if there is a god he does seem to do a good bit of lying when the majority of people don’t believe in god and the rest are so confused they can't even agree. G

Mr S, it asks in the Holy Writ, “Is God the Author of Confusion?” To which I suppose you would say “A Great Big YES!”

It is the fate of us non-religionists to constantly work to bring civility to those who proclaim themselves to be the “children of God.” Ugh!

Q. For how long can the world survive God-ism?


[edit on 10/28/2007 by donwhite]

donwhite, The reason I used Deuteronomy is because the OP used Deuteronomy.

I believe asking the OP why he was so angry with God is a valid question. Apparently he just took some random verses in the bible to complain about. He did not read the book at all. If he did he would have read that when Jesus arrived, His BLOOD became the new covenant. What does that mean? Look it up. Once you understand you will see the OT does not apply anymore. But hey that would ruin the OP's post now wouldn't it.

Then you say;

"No, Mr X, I am not a child. I find only your #3 retort of sufficient interest to merit a response. As soon as you have elaborated on your claim of prior special communication with the Divine One relative to the Nine Eleven Event, would you then tell me
A) Who Really Shot Kennedy? And
B) Where is Osama bin Laden? "

I am sorry that I can't choose what God shows me. If I could I would give you a answer. About the Pyramids, I make no claim as to who built them. I never said anything about that. Please don't try and put words in my mouth.

In the end no matter what I say you people will ALWAYS come up with something, because you are active in looking for that something. I can present no argument because you have already made up your minds.

So all I can say is this.

"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible"

Now go and keep posting, blaming God for mans sins. Thats all I see in this thread. God told the truth to man but man in his greed and stupidity twisted His words and made many "religions". I don't see Jesus going out trying to collect money. But I do see evil people who claim to represent God collecting money and lying using His name. If you want to make a rant, rant about the evil people who deceive and lie. Like our skull & bones satanic president who says he is a Christian.

Please stop blaming God for what humans do.

BTW I am a Catholic

reply to post by shihulud


You are confused babu, I want to enlighten you. God is the unmanifested manifester of everything. We are all a part of god. We need only to wake up from Mara, (Mara represents Greed, lust, anger, ignorance) Mara is the reason for all the disorder and confusion present in the world right now. We have unenlightened men who are befuddled with mara, and they spread theyre false dharma throughout the world. We have a hard choice to make regarding religion, I myself follow the teachings of buddha, but i consider myself to be a spiritualist.

When unenlightened men interpret enlightened men's words you get confusion. You get suffering.

God does not lie. God is above an beyond any ego, God is unknowable. And god is unfathomable. I stand in awe before god.

God is within, and without, god is everything, and nothing.

Rebirth/reincarnation is real, it was taught by christ, and it was taught by early christians as well, before being branded heresy by the church under Constantine.

If you fail to understand that mara has you blinded, and your ego has you trapped, then you will suffer. You will not see god, you see only what you want to see.

But never fear. If you fail to resolve your past karma that binds you in this lifetime you will eventually.

Even a million years of sin cannot stop god from loving you.

But its up to you. Its all you. You choose to live how you want to. You choose to see what you want to, and you choose your path.

Feedom isnt free, including free will.

Wake up people. Or suffer. Your choice.

reply to post by _Mr.X_


Thank you for the kind and polite response.

Don W

reply to post by gravytrain


Uhh, could you UPS me a liter of whatever it is you are drinking? Sort of a happy juice?

Originally posted by _Mr.X_
donwhite, The reason I used Deuteronomy is because the OP used Deuteronomy.

I believe asking the OP why he was so angry with God is a valid question. Apparently he just took some random verses in the bible to complain about. He did not read the book at all. If he did he would have read that when Jesus arrived, His BLOOD became the new covenant. What does that mean? Look it up. Once you understand you will see the OT does not apply anymore. But hey that would ruin the OP's post now wouldn't it.

I as the OP am not angry with something I dont believe but with the premise that religion assumes some sort of authority. You assume as a christian that your views are correct an that I and others should listen and accept your views as the truth. The problem is that your beliefs are based on faith and cannot be proven due to their nature. The book that your faith is based is full of contradictions and not historically accurate and as I have shown that the god in the OT is not the same god that the NT proclaims. It is also known that the early church did falsify bits of the bible to fit their own agenda.

Now go and keep posting, blaming God for mans sins. Thats all I see in this thread. God told the truth to man but man in his greed and stupidity twisted His words and made many "religions". I don't see Jesus going out trying to collect money. But I do see evil people who claim to represent God collecting money and lying using His name. If you want to make a rant, rant about the evil people who deceive and lie. Like our skull & bones satanic president who says he is a Christian.

Please stop blaming God for what humans do.

I dont blame god for what humans do, I blame humans for what humans do whether good or bad. I dont ascribe anything to any deity - why should I?

BTW I am a Catholic

So what? And by being a catholic that gives you some sort of authority over others does it?

Your convictions are based on the unknown, on your personal belief of this unknown and on the personal beliefs of others on the same subject.

Religion (any I dont descriminate) does not have a monopoly on truth - how can it if it is based on the unknown?

G

Originally posted by gravytrain
reply to post by shihulud

 

You are confused babu, I want to enlighten you. God is the unmanifested manifester of everything. We are all a part of god. We need only to wake up from Mara, (Mara represents Greed, lust, anger, ignorance) Mara is the reason for all the disorder and confusion present in the world right now. We have unenlightened men who are befuddled with mara, and they spread theyre false dharma throughout the world. We have a hard choice to make regarding religion, I myself follow the teachings of buddha, but i consider myself to be a spiritualist.

When unenlightened men interpret enlightened men's words you get confusion. You get suffering.

God does not lie. God is above an beyond any ego, God is unknowable. And god is unfathomable. I stand in awe before god.

And yet you claim to have the answers and that I am confused

Wake up people. Or suffer. Your choice.

Well I think I will choose to 'suffer' as you put it as my suffering is quite happy and if it was a choice of believing in a god (if it existed) I would still choose to live my life without the necessity for having this deity in my life. All religions to me are abhorrent IMO.


G

If God is all powerful and God is Truth and God lies, then you have a contradiction--the lies must be omnipotently true. And if the lies are true they are not lies. Either the Bible or God is wrong. The Bible was written by men and men are sometimes inaccurate or confused--if not outright liars--so I would bet on God.

But what has this got to do with conspiracies?

I would say the conflict is among many different concepts of God, including the position that there is no God or gods. If there's any conspiracy it is to make everyone believe the same thing.

shihulud, Where do I begin? Lets start from the bottom up. You said "So what? And by being a catholic that gives you some sort of authority over others does it?"

The " I am Catholic" answer was for donwhite. He suspected that I might be a Protestant. Quoting Don "but I sense you are not Catholic, but rather you seem to be a “pick and choose” Protestant".

Wow If you took the time to read what others wrote IN YOUR THREAD you would have read this, but you did not bother. How can I have a intelligent conversation with someone who refuses to listen? By your actions you show me that you disregard anything anyone has to say contrary to your point of view. You will never learn anything with that outlook.

Next you said "I dont blame god for what humans do, I blame humans for what humans do whether good or bad. I dont ascribe anything to any deity - why should I?"

Again if you read my rebuttal to you, you would have seen where I answered you in regard to the "Deuteronomy" statements you used. You indeed blame God for what humans do! You based your whole argument using verses from this book and I showed that if you would have read just a little more you would have seen where THE PEOPLE lied to GOD and HE revoked His promise.

"Deuteronomy 7

11 Therefore, take care to follow the commands, decrees and laws I give you today.

12 If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers.

Deuteronomy 8

1 Be careful to follow every command I am giving you today, so that you may live and increase and may enter and possess the land that the LORD promised on oath to your forefathers.

Yet we read in Deuteronomy 9

23 And when the LORD sent you out from Kadesh Barnea, he said, "Go up and take possession of the land I have given you." But you rebelled against the command of the LORD your God. You did not trust him or obey him.

24 You have been rebellious against the LORD ever since I have known you."

Again you prove to me that you did not bother to read.

Next you wrote "I as the OP am not angry with something I dont believe but with the premise that religion assumes some sort of authority. You assume as a christian that your views are correct an that I and others should listen and accept your views as the truth. The problem is that your beliefs are based on faith and cannot be proven due to their nature. The book that your faith is based is full of contradictions and not historically accurate and as I have shown that the god in the OT is not the same god that the NT proclaims. It is also known that the early church did falsify bits of the bible to fit their own agenda."

Now as a Christian I assume nothing other then Jesus saved me, that His blood is the new covenant, which makes the old testament null and void. Even God agrees to this, it was His idea! ( O if you actually read the bible in depth you would have read that but you did not.) I do not expect you to believe me at all, heh I used to be just like you! You are 100% correct where you say "The problem is that your beliefs are based on faith and cannot be proven due to their nature." Unfortunately, thats all your right about. If you had read the bible you would see God was faithful to His people. It was His people who let Him down. So He allowed them to taste defeat, in order to teach them once more.

You said "I have shown that the god in the OT is not the same god that the NT proclaims". Your 100% correct here too, but not in the way you think. Jesus' blood became the new covenant. Thats why there was a change. Look it up.

You said "The book that your faith is based is full of contradictions and not historically accurate and as I have shown"

I say repost all your "contradictions" in a nice concise manner. Just the verses you think prove your points. No interjection on your part, just the verses. And I will debunk them. Thats my challenge to you.

Originally posted by gravytrain


But its up to you. Its all you. You choose to live how you want to. You choose to see what you want to, and you choose your path.

Feedom isnt free, including free will.

Wake up people. Or suffer. Your choice.

Ah the great convert or suffer choice.

Why do christians have to threaten other people to convert? Why use fear to try to win people over?

Originally posted by Fett Pinkus

Originally posted by gravytrain


But its up to you. Its all you. You choose to live how you want to. You choose to see what you want to, and you choose your path.

Feedom isnt free, including free will.

Wake up people. Or suffer. Your choice.

Ah the great convert or suffer choice.

Why do christians have to threaten other people to convert? Why use fear to try to win people over?

Not all of them are like that Fett. Just the insecure ones are like that. I am a Catholic and I never try to force anything on anyone. I leave that to God and Jesus. If you are meant to know them, you will.

Originally posted by _Mr.X_

The " I am Catholic" answer was for donwhite. He suspected that I might be a Protestant. Quoting Don "but I sense you are not Catholic, but rather you seem to be a “pick and choose” Protestant".

Wow If you took the time to read what others wrote IN YOUR THREAD you would have read this, but you did not bother. How can I have a intelligent conversation with someone who refuses to listen? By your actions you show me that you disregard anything anyone has to say contrary to your point of view. You will never learn anything with that outlook.

If you dont wish people to comment on things then don't write them. If you wish to disregard the things I've posted then do so and stay out of the thread, no-one is forcing you to interject.

Next you said "I dont blame god for what humans do, I blame humans for what humans do whether good or bad. I dont ascribe anything to any deity - why should I?"

Again if you read my rebuttal to you, you would have seen where I answered you in regard to the "Deuteronomy" statements you used. You indeed blame God for what humans do!

Why would I as an atheist blame any deity for what people do? Your logic is a bit flawed. What I was trying to do was to show that the religious concept of a perfect god is wrong.

You based your whole argument using verses from this book and I showed that if you would have read just a little more you would have seen where THE PEOPLE lied to GOD and HE revoked His promise....

...Again you prove to me that you did not bother to read.

A christian taking things out of context to try and prove a point, what will you think of next? In deut 9 god is telling the israelites that they have defied him on many occasions but because he promised the land to the patriarchs he will fulfill that promise as is shown (which by the way he did not therefore lied) .
Deu 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Deu 9:6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou [art] a stiffnecked people.

It seems that you never read what I wrote which came from Deu 12 and 13.

You said "I have shown that the god in the OT is not the same god that the NT proclaims". Your 100% correct here too, but not in the way you think. Jesus' blood became the new covenant. Thats why there was a change. Look it up.

And if you check what I said you would find that jesus and the NT are false so its your assumption that christianity has some divine authority that is wrong. Please don't assume I don't have a clue what I'm talking about - I used to be a bible basher myself.

You said "The book that your faith is based is full of contradictions and not historically accurate and as I have shown"

I say repost all your "contradictions" in a nice concise manner. Just the verses you think prove your points. No interjection on your part, just the verses. And I will debunk them. Thats my challenge to you.

Far to many to list but here's one for you. How do you reconcile that fact that the septaguint version of the torah states that methuselah lived 14 years after the flood while the newer versions have him dying (oh so conveniently before the flood)? As I have shown the early church changed bits of the bible to suit there own ends, going against what was stated in the OT.

G