Originally posted by Sparky63

To prosper, both the family and the congregation need women and men to play their respective roles with love and respect.—Ephesians 5:21-25, 28, 29, 33.

Unfortunately because on mans sinful condition many men have abused their headship and have used it as an excuse to dominate and denigrate women.

Yeah, and that's why Lilith was driven from Eden, because she didn't take her "proper place." She was turned out and demonized.

Even before man's "original sin" women have been kept in a place lesser-than. The whole creation myth, where women come from Adam's rib, is proof enough of this.

The entire OT is full of laws against women, keeping them down. Laws supposedly given by god.

The bible clearly says women should do as men say. And that is because the bible was written by primitive men, not by a god of any kind. Men want to own their heirs, and to do that, they have to own the women.

Women need to stand up and shout out

Not sit down and be quiet.

We are tallking about this day and age

Let me ask you ALL:

In the Western Hemisphere...North America...

Is there a need for Females to work?

Is there a need for voting?

Is there a need for reformation?

I will be more than willing to start up a thread as to the 'needs of females in society'.

Please kind sir or madam....

DOES the Bible expression “weaker vessel” degrade women? The Bible verse in question is 1 Peter 3:7, which states:

“You husbands, continue dwelling in like manner with them according to knowledge, assigning them honor as to a weaker vessel, the feminine one, since you are also heirs with them of the undeserved favor of life, in order for your prayers not to be hindered.”

When Peter wrote these words to fellow Christians, women had very few rights, not only in the ancient pagan world but also among the apostate Jewish community run by the Pharasees. Were Peter and the early Christians advocating the then prevalent view of women? No way.

How would first-century readers of Peter’s words construe the term “weaker vessel”? The Greek word for vessel (skeu′os) was used a number of times in the Greek Scriptures and refers to various containers, implements, utensils, and instruments.

In calling women the “weaker vessel,” Peter was not degrading women, for the expression implied that the husband too was a fragile or weak vessel.

True, Peter portrays women as the “weaker” of the sexes. But Romans 5:6 uses “weak” to apply to all humans—male and female. Therefore, the early Christians would not have considered the term “weaker vessel” to be derogatory to women.

If anything, Peter’s words would have been viewed as elevating the status of women. In Peter’s day respect for women hardly existed. As God had long before foreseen, husbands often dominated and abused their wives physically, sexually, and emotionally. (Genesis 3:16) Thus, Peter’s counsel to Christian husbands implied, in effect:

Do not exploit the power society has given men.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction


The entire OT is full of laws against women, keeping them down. Laws supposedly given by god.

I would respectfully argue that the opposite is true. According to Gods laws given through Moses, wives were to be “cherished.”

6 “In case your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or your cherished wife or your companion who is like your own soul, should try to allure you in secrecy, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ whom you have not known, neither you nor your forefathers. . . (Deuteronomy 13:6)

bold text by me for emphasis

The dignity of wives was to be respected in sexual matters, and no woman was to be sexually abused. (Leviticus 18:8-19)

Men and women were equal before the Law if they were found guilty of adultery, incest, or bestiality. (Leviticus 18:6, 23; 20:10-12)

The fifth commandment required that equal honor be given to the father and the mother.—Exodus 20:12.

Above all, the Law provided women with full opportunity to develop their spirituality. They benefited from the reading of the Law.

(Joshua 8:35) 35 There proved to be not a word of all that Moses had commanded that Joshua did not read aloud in front of all the congregation of Israel, together with the women and the little ones and the alien residents who walked in their midst.

They were required to observe religious festivals. (Deuteronomy 12:12, 18; 16:11, 14) They shared in the weekly Sabbath and could take the Nazirite vow. (Exodus 20:8; Numbers 6:2)

When the Law was followed in Israel, women were not treated badly.

[edit on 10-10-2007 by Sparky63]

[edit on 10-10-2007 by Sparky63]

I see all this talk of the strength of women, and in the same breath, how 'society' sexualizes them, or the bible is subverting them implying that they are somehow victims.
I see it differently.

I see a range of behaviors and morays CHOSEN by women.

Most good looking women CHOOSE to dress in high heels and short skirts and to be sexy. They flirt because it gives them a feeling of power. Sexual power.
At the same time I see women who are average looking resent them for making this choice of behavior. Most, not all, but most of the hot women I've known have been shallow and self absorbed. I've seen it all my life.

If you say it is not their choice, but that society forces them to behave this way, then you are saying that women can not think rationally or for themselves. You cannot have it both ways.
If this is not obvious, then please explain why it is not.

Been going on since I was little, and probably since time began.
Please, let's stop all the victimization speak here.

Women are not mind controlled by some vast male dominated conspiracy. They simply make their own choices regarding their sexuality, and their behavior good or bad, and it is NOT society's fault.

That is 'victim' speak.
Males however, are expected to be strong, yet sensitive, provide an excellent income for the family, work 10 hour days but be home every night by 6 to help with the chores, help with dinner, kids, vacuum, take out the trash, mow the lawn, fix the car, paint the porch, and take her out, etc.
They are expected to to be unselfish lovers, and always concerned about her pleasure, and never their own.
Ad infinitum. My GF's have shown me this stuff in Ms. Mag. etc. and they try to enforce someone else's fantasy life...

I have noticed a real trend here lately with all the 'oppressed' and 'victimized' women making their thoughts known over and over. The male bashing seems not to stop.
Mr.ogeny I will call it.
And no men speak up, or they simply agree, as tho they have a chance to get laid, or maybe they have been emasculated already.
It is becoming tiresome.

Now we are parsing the Bible, line for line showing how 'evil' men are.
Can this thread be any more ridiculous?
Please. Go parse Atlas Shrugged or the dictionary some other work and look for hints of misogyny.
People are accountable for how they act. And how they are treated.
Not society.

Not a book called the bible.
If you don't like how you are treated, change your behavior.
Simple.
If you are a misanthrope, you will be treated like one.
If you see yourself as a 'victim', then the same.
How about all the war time vets that had their arms and legs blown off and can not get a job as a consequence?
Life is not fair.
Did anyone tell you it was?

The Law of Moses protected women’s rights and, when followed, allowed womenfolk to lead a satisfying life. But as time went by, particularly after the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E., there developed the religion of Judaism, based more on oral traditions than on the written Law.

From the fourth century B.C.E. on, Judaism absorbed much Greek philosophy. By and large the Greek philosophers paid little attention to the rights of women, so there occurred a corresponding drop in the status of women within Judaism.

From the third century B.C.E., women began to be separated from men in the Jewish synagogues and were discouraged from reading the Torah (Law of Moses). The Encyclopaedia Judaica acknowledges:

“As a result few women were learned.”

Education was principally for boys.

In his book Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus, J. Jeremias writes:

“On the whole, the position of women in religious legislation is best expressed in this constantly repeated formula: ‘Women, (Gentile) slaves and children.’ . . . We may add to all this that there were plenty of disdainful opinions expressed on women. . . . We have therefore the impression that Judaism in Jesus’ time also had a very low opinion of women.”

Originally posted by LDragonFire
It seems insane to follow a book that has such a low opinion of women.
What say you?

Well, that's what religion does to you, right?

I also think it'd be better if you added the " " to the thread title.

[edit on 10-10-2007 by TheoOne]

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction

Yeah, and that's why Lilith was driven from Eden, because she didn't take her "proper place." She was turned out and demonized.

I personally don't put too much trust in Sumerian mythology, or Jewish mythology for that matter. But thats probably due to my upbringing.

I should qualify "Jewish Mythology" by adding "apart from what is contained in the Bible".

Although many would also consider that nothing more than mythology.



[edit on 10-10-2007 by Sparky63]

With regard to the regulations in the first century prohibiting a woman to teach, one should keep in mind that this was talking about teaching in the congregation.

Christian women received the holy spirit and ‘prophesied,’ or boldly spoke forth “the magnificent things of God.”

(Acts 2:17-18) 17 ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will prophesy and YOUR young men will see visions and YOUR old men will dream dreams; 18 and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

So women would be used to prophesy to teach to instruct.
Older Christian women were to be “teachers of what is good” for their younger spiritual sisters.

True, Paul instructed Timothy:

“I do not permit a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man.” (1 Timothy 2:12)

However, this does not mean that a Christian woman cannot teach her children or teach among the general public, but she should not teach in the congregation.

The apostle Paul also writes to Christians in Galatia that

“there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus.”

—Galatians 3:26-28

All have an independent spiritual standing before God; yet all are united as a body of his servants. All are alike in God’s household..

The bottom line is that men have dominated, abused, and denigrated women down through the centuries.
And in an attempt to justify it many have corrupted or twisted what the Bible says. In societies where the Bible is not recognized or followed, women have faced the same conditions or even worse.

It is sinful imperfect Man that has corrupted & rejected the perfect will of God that has brought about the conditions we see.

OK thats enough from me....on this matter. I'm getting down of my soapbox....for now...my wife has ordered me to get off the computer, get her a cup of tea and rub her feet. I found out early in my marriage that if she is happy, I am happy.

[edit on 10-10-2007 by Sparky63]

[edit on 10-10-2007 by Sparky63]

[edit on 10-10-2007 by Sparky63]

Seems quite obvious to me probably because I am a woman

Women are feared, throughout history human beings have cloaked their fears with words, symbols and facade.
Women are feared because our maternal instincts would not allow us to send our sons off to war, to be slaughtered. We would teach and heal, our maternal insticts would guide us and I do believe the world would be a better place.

I have always felt that the female is the stronger of the sexes and I am in no way trying to cut down the male sex.
I love men, I love my husband, my son, my father and my granddaddy but I have always known that my mother, my grandmother, my sister and myself were and are the actual driving force, the strength behind these men.
If "history" had been less fearful and edited without bias, I wonder what this world would be like at the hands of the female.
I doubt war would be the main theme.

Originally posted by Alexander the o.k.
I see a range of behaviors and morays CHOSEN by women.

Most good looking women CHOOSE to dress in high heels and short skirts and to be sexy. They flirt because it gives them a feeling of power. Sexual power.
At the same time I see women who are average looking resent them for making this choice of behavior. Most, not all, but most of the hot women I've known have been shallow and self absorbed. I've seen it all my life.

If you say it is not their choice, but that society forces them to behave this way, then you are saying that women can not think rationally or for themselves. You cannot have it both ways.
If this is not obvious, then please explain why it is not.

Been going on since I was little, and probably since time began.
Please, let's stop all the victimization speak here.

Women are not mind controlled by some vast male dominated conspiracy. They simply make their own choices regarding their sexuality, and their behavior good or bad, and it is NOT society's fault.

That is 'victim' speak.
Males however, are expected to be strong, yet sensitive, provide an excellent income for the family, work 10 hour days but be home every night by 6 to help with the chores, help with dinner, kids, vacuum, take out the trash, mow the lawn, fix the car, paint the porch, and take her out, etc.

I am a "good looking woman" and been told so by everyone all my life. I do not choose to dress in provactive clothing, I do not wear high heels , tons of makeup or gallons of hairspray.
I think your perception here is not taking into account age, maturity, social status, education, nurture etc.
I admit before I met my husband, in my late teens early 20's I dressed a lot more "sexy", wore more makeup(but not much more) but still no hairspray etc. but I was on the prowl so to speak. My husband also had less paunch, more hair, whiter teeth and better dresssing habits when he was single.
Today I am married with children, early 30's, still cute (so they tell me) but I now wear jeans, tshirt, crocs (the most unsexy shoe ever made) or my old boots, my hair in a ponytail and no makeup, ok, maybe some lipstick if it's a special occasion
So my point is women should not be divided up by beauty or what they wear or how they dress, etc. because that will wane and fade as life goes on.
I believe that you have been hanging out with some young women are older women who are trying desperatly to recapture their youth. Women, just as men, change throughtout life defining all of us within 2 paragraphs is impossible. We all come from so many different walks of life, we are all different ages, we are all different.
You are lumping an entire sex into your definition, are you taking into account the woman in Africa, Iceland or China.
Do you know women from every country, every socio economic background, every age range?
How old are you and what is your expereince with women? Who are you to define an entire sex? and then ask for an explanation?
You have no idea what I do everyday and you have no idea what my husband does yet you once again seem to define a males "role" in society based on what?
Your experience?
You said you had a girlfriend, how can you define a marriage without even being married?
I feel you need a hell of a lot more life experience before you can ask anyone to explain to you why or why not your defintions are wrong.

Should women sit down and shut up...well only if they are ranting and raving not adding anything constructive, same goes for the men.

In the biblical point of view, the man was to be the head / leader of the family. How many of you men really lead or do you just kinda sorta lead follow?

Leadership requires that you make the decisions right or wrong by using the best information available. Should you neglect the input of your wife you are voiding yourself of a valuable resource. Once the decision is made accept responsibility for it. Don't point your finger at your wife and wives don't point your finger at your husband if he made a mistake, work as a team.

As for me and my family, I am the captain of my ship, I run a taught ship and I rely upon all the valuable information I can receive to make the best possible decision. My wife is my XO and I value her input greatly. She sees things in ways that I do not and can shed light that will inable me to make the right decision. She is priceless! Don't think she is subservient either. I stand beside her, not over her. I will put her behind me to protect her, thats my job. She is not my servant, she is the second in command. I will not countermand her orders unless it is absolutely necessary and I have never had to yet.

However, the final decision is mine and mine alone and I take full responsibility for them. Now for feminists, girly boys and men basher's I understand that you don't like these ideas but I'm not here to please you.

Don't even think you can be on board my ship and play your agenda.

Originally posted by pstrron
She sees things in ways that I do not and can shed light that will inable me to make the right decision. She is priceless! Don't think she is subservient either. I stand beside her, not over her. I will put her behind me to protect her, thats my job.

I hope you show your wife what you wrote above, it shows your deep love and respect for her, and that is what a marriage should be.
I just had to point out how much your paragraph quoted above touched me

The law of Moses protected us woman folk?

Where?

I think Jesus loved and respected women. I think that is one of the reasons he was persecuted.

All the versus that the OP quotes from the new testament were written by Paul. He was no fan of women, to put it mildly.

And of course, official "Christianity" was invented by the Romans, who had no respect for women at all.

There are guidelines for male/female relationships but lets not forget that Jesus was the first advocate for women rights. He challenged sexist laws of the time, taught to women when they were not allowed to be involved in theological study, had many women in his fold. Women were the only ones that stuck buy him at his crucifiction ...he first appeared to women after his resurrection.

You quickly see how Jesus (God) thought of women and how he was showing the world that they were/are equals to men.

Blessings....

The bible is ALWAYS right, whether we have a full understanding or not!
I used to be a raging feminist.
I worked construction for many years. Drywall, framing and siding.
(I usually worked with a boyfriend.)
I thought one masonic,(sort of)christian boyfriend was horribly chauvenistic. He was the only christian I ever really knew was so.
That turned me from the Abrahamic image of God. I began believing that God must be female because we are sssoooooooo much better than men.
When I heard the gospel, I told God "If you can show me in the bible where we are not just chattel for men and that you love us just as much, I'll pray."
He did when I opened my bible my Mom had bought for me!
Paul I believe said "it is better to remain unmarried, but....it is better to be married than burn"
If you've been married for more than 3 years, you know how hard it is.

The submission to ANYONE is hard and if you messed up on your choosing of a man, then it's more than double.
My husband is no henpecked moron and he doesn't leave his assertions at his mamma's house. Thank God for men who can take charge!
He also does housework for me. I don't have to ask him.
He doesn't push me around, or put me down.
I have my opinions, but more often than not, we are completely on the same page! We have three young boys who know who thier Dad is. Honest, kind when needed,firm when needed and a leader. OH! What a word!
Men are men and women are women. We're DIFFERENT.
Now about women taking over churches,........ That's just wrong.(see bible)