Women need to shut up and sit down

Originally posted by scientist

either that, or they were keeping with tradition to write everything based on the study of nature, which would also include the female nature of being submissive.

I am not so sure the female nature is to be submissive.

We were forced to be by men blaming it on god word.

If you look back several of the Goddesses, like Athena for instances are Goddesses of War, and Justice and the execution of justice.

No we aren't submissive by nature but you can hit harder, or look at Henry the eight if he got mad at his wife it was "Off with her head"

Maybe the female dieties are jealous of human women so the men who worship her in secret defend her place as the Queen.

Precisely why I refuse to follow any Abrahamic religion.

They just are not up to date, besides Reform Judaism and the Baha'i Faith.

I used to be a pretty religious person.

I got rid of religion recently.

Now I see the kind of crap I was blindly following.

Madness.

I've always wanted to come back as a male lion who sleeps 18 hrs a day and have my meals brought to me then copulate for the remainder of the day. Ahhhh...heaven. Now running for hills....darn those national geographic shows.

In the Roman Catholic tradition the Virgin Mary is held up as a role model for women. She symbolizes female "virtues" such as obedience, submission, chastity and silence. In fervent Catholic countries, Catholic women are encouraged to emulate her. In fact the more women submit and self-efface themselves the more they are praised for being “good” Christian women. The Roman Catholic Church glorifies one woman while it rubbishes all the rest.

I’m amazed at the length people will go to defend faith’s that condone this type of behavior against women. To claim one sex over the other in such a blatant fashion is the product of an Male,immature, insecure, weak mind.

Is this the mind of God? The pattern seems to say yes. I ask is this a God of Love or a God of control?

It is time women saw the bible for what it is: a man-made, primitive "revelation"! No woman with a shred of self-esteem would want to demean herself by bowing to such tyrannical and self-effacing absolutes. Every time a woman submits to such demotion she throws away her sell-worth. Women's self-worth is anathema to fundamentalists who accuse women of being selfish and ungiving.
WOMEN IN THE BIBLE

Submissiveness is not male of female based, it is a human trait. Eve questioned God, thank God, because somebody had too. Just look at his works, thousands of years of war and killing in his name. Thank God it’s a religion based in Love, or is it really about control and domination?

Still, I was shocked this week by the report on a conference of 5,000 Catholic men in Boston, and the results of a little Googling of Opus Dei (yes, I’m reading The Da Vinci Code). The Boston conference report and my readings on Opus Dei--and its Father John McCloskey--reminded me again that religious fundamentalism, be it Protestant, Muslim, Jewish or Catholic, is a destructive force that is polarizing cultures and wrecking lives.
As a Boston Herald report described the event: “Men are the ‘natural’ heads of their families and should persuade their wives to give up birth control, quit their jobs and home-school their children, a keynote speaker at the annual Boston Catholic Men’s Conference said yesterday. ‘The first thing we have to do is get you off the birth control,’ Sean Forrest instructed his audience of 5,000 men to tell their wives.
The bigotry of Catholic conservatives

It continues to this day, and Millions still follow this self destructive child like belief. This is not based in Goodness, Love or Joy. It is based on insecurities, and hate. It is not based on free will, in this regards women have no choice but to “smile, shake their head yes and to do what ever their man tells them to do, and to agree with what ever they say”.

Please, the argument that this was the way of the world in the days the bible was written is at best a weak argument, if it was wrong back then and is wrong today, it is just wrong.

reply to post by LDragonFire


This is a fine example of the pervasiveness of sexism. Women assisting in maintaining their own oppression by supporting churches and religions that see them as inferior. You often hear people exclaim that women are treated as equals now. Not that this is an example of otherwise, but is an example of the mechanisms behind sexist attitudes being maintained in society by both males and females.

Originally posted by parrhesia
reply to post by LDragonFire

 

This is a fine example of the pervasiveness of sexism. Women assisting in maintaining their own oppression by supporting churches and religions that see them as inferior. You often hear people exclaim that women are treated as equals now. Not that this is an example of otherwise, but is an example of the mechanisms behind sexist attitudes being maintained in society by both males and females.

It's amazing to me that this has been going on for thousands of years, and they are still attempting to manipulate laws to enforce their positions. Are male's really that afraid of a strong willed woman, with opinions?

I'm most attracted too women that can think for themselves, that make decisions for themselves, to be sexual equals. or just equal.

The husband should be the head of the household arbitrarily, without question is just crazy, what if he is a idiot?

reply to post by LDragonFire


It is amazing to me, too. Both as a feminist and as an atheist.

While I'm sure some men are indeed threatened by women being regarded as true equals (afterall, they would lose their automatic privilege that comes along with simply being men), I think that often the issue, particularly with religion as a basis for opinions and beliefs, is that these beliefs are indoctrinated at an early age. The association of such beliefs with the divine, for some, perhaps cements it even more?

What if he's an idiot? Women and children suffer? What a surprise.

Originally posted by LDragonFire
I'm most attracted too women that can think for themselves, that make decisions for themselves, to be sexual equals. or just equal.

Same.

I don't like the stereotypical "girly" female, or the ignorant pop-culture saturated girl I see all the time, it's sad they conform to such things.

The sexualization of women in the media is sick. I mean so many things; high heels?! Those do nothing but supposedly make women "sexier"; they serve no other purpose. Yet women willfully wear them because of society. They are awkward and hinder movement. And just short skirts and all this stuff designed to subjugate them it disgusts me.

Give me a tough, strong willed female in military fatigues and combat boots; thats my dream girl. She can be as dominant as she likes, and I'll shower her with love and gifts.

Originally posted by parrhesia
It is amazing to me, too. Both as a feminist and as an atheist.

Atheist...? Wow, I kinda assumed you were a Hindu from your avatar.


[edit on 10/10/2007 by Kacen]

reply to post by Kacen


I see your point, but is the rejection of today's so-called femininity, or even the femininity of yesteryear better when it is substituted for so-called masculine clothing an/or behaviour?

Isn't that sexism still in action? Isn't that still reinforcing gender roles and values?

Originally posted by parrhesia
reply to post by Kacen

 

I see your point, but is the rejection of today's so-called femininity, or even the femininity of yesteryear better when it is substituted for so-called masculine clothing an/or behaviour?

Isn't that sexism still in action? Isn't that still reinforcing gender roles and values?

I was merely stating my personal preference in a spouse, well one of them.

But still, really, it just sickens me how it's all just designed to feminize them...but yeah it is kinda reverse. I guess it's pushing the pendulum in the other direction.

Personally, I hope we can eliminate all stereotypical gender roles so people are just who they want to be without subconscious indoctrination.

reply to post by Kacen


You're tellin' me.

The sexualization of women is sickening, sure.
But really, I don't necessarily see the solution as women becoming more like men. Why don't men become more like women?

It's the gender roles and their associated values that are hugely problematic. Now I don't know if doing away with them would solve these sorts of issues, but I do think it is a step in the right direction in many ways.

I stopped replying to these kinds of threads a while ago - its just not worth the aggravation. However, it might be worth noting here that the 3rd book of Isaiah is widely regarded to have been written by a woman and that the text you take from Timothy is a reaction to the orgiastic worship practises popular at that time. Yadda, yadda, cha, cha, cha....
The Bible is an ancient text written by people, generally men because women were not able to be educated at that time. The disciples of Jesus were mainly women, his closest followers were women and the early church was supported mostly by women. This is clearly and consistently recorded in the N.T. even in some parables where God is compared to an old woman rather than a Temple Priest. Yet, you take a couple of New Testament lines and raise these up as being the predominant thinking of the time rather than what they are - an objection to orgiastic religious ceremonies in the neighbouring temple. If you're going to argue something, do a little research first - that way you sound less like an idiot.

Originally posted by parrhesia
reply to post by Kacen

 

You're tellin' me.

The sexualization of women is sickening, sure.
But really, I don't necessarily see the solution as women becoming more like men. Why don't men become more like women?

It's the gender roles and their associated values that are hugely problematic. Now I don't know if doing away with them would solve these sorts of issues, but I do think it is a step in the right direction in many ways.

Yeah...hmm...

Notice how most feminists though tend to dress like men, shorten their hair just to spite people, and to show who they are...hmm.

Thing is there are a lot of difficulties; changing laws is one thing, in this country law-wise women are equal to men now; however culturally in many places that is not true.

It's like if you went into Saudi Arabia right now, overthrew the government and granted equality etc between men and women it is not like they would all be equal in an instant, hell I wouldn't be surprised if a good amount of the women still acted the way they did because that is what they were used to.

That is the problem, it is so complex, it is so hard to change culture.

Geez, I just thought of something. Female declitoritsation still done by some cultures. Are we that afraid of Matriarchal hierarchy? I stopped giving my time and tithes long ago. John Lennon knew his stuff in the 60's. I propose a new religion, humans that don't kill each other for ANY reason.
We'll call it Humanity. Now pass the basket already!

Women should SHUT UP AND SIT DOWN?

Ok...

Let's look at the historical perspective of women.

OP...I'm not attacking you...just throwing a major league curve ball in your direction

I'm officially riled up now.

Why?

I want every member in ATS/BTS/PTS to hear my thoughts.

*I am sooooooo sick and bloody tired of being 'sub human' according to ANY religious/holy/governmental books.

In this day and age....It is more than respected that FEMALES work side-by-side in OUR society.

Do you freakin get that???!?!??!

(Listen....I hear a female gargantuan plombing and kicking aside societals bounderies...oh jeese....I think you upset her??!?)

OH nooooooooo it's ...BRA-zilla!!!!!!!!

Ohhhhhh Godddddd help us....

It's...it's....

reply to post by Kacen


Well you hit the nail on the head:
Formal vs. Substantial freedoms.

Women are legally equal.
Socially it's not so.
The same can be said for racism. Legally, all races are equal, but there are substantial differences in treatment. But that's not the topic here.

At any rate, you're right, it takes time to change a culture, especially a culture that resists change at its very core because the culture is misoginyst at its roots - hence religions grip, hence ingrained sexism, hence claims of womens equality.

OK I'm going to go out on a limb here and take the politically incorrect stand in support of the Bible.

First of all, we might consider one of the very first statements in the Bible that seems to indicate that women would be discriminated against.

“Your craving will be for your husband, and he will dominate you.” (Genesis 3:16)

Critics often point to this as a judgment of Eve by God and as divine approval of woman’s subjection by man.

However, rather than a declaration of God’s purpose, this is an accurate statement of the sad consequences of sin and rejection of God’s sovereignty. Abuse of women is the direct result of mankind’s fallen nature, not God’s will.

Wives in many cultures have indeed been dominated by their husbands, often in very harsh ways. But this was not God’s purpose.

The fact is, God hates all forms of exploitation and abuse. Rather than discriminate against women, the Law elevated and protected them from the rampant exploitation common in the surrounding nations. A capable Jewish wife was a highly respected and esteemed individual.

Bu some may say, "Isn't subjection the same as discrimination?

Any society can function well only when there is order. This requires the administration of authority. The alternative is chaos.

“God is a God, not of disorder, but of peace.”—1 Corinthians 14:33.

The apostle Paul describes the family headship arrangement:

“The head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.” (1 Corinthians 11:3)

Every individual except God submits to a higher authority. Does the fact that Jesus has a head mean that he is being discriminated against? Of course not! The fact that men Scripturally have been assigned to take the lead in the congregation and the family does not mean that women are being discriminated against.

To prosper, both the family and the congregation need women and men to play their respective roles with love and respect.—Ephesians 5:21-25, 28, 29, 33.

Unfortunately because on mans sinful condition many men have abused their headship and have used it as an excuse to dominate and denigrate women.

Jesus consistently treated women with respect. He refused to follow the discriminatory traditions and regulations taught by the Pharisees. He talked to non-Jewish women. ( John 4:7-9) Here Jesus spoke to a Samaritan woman and taught her something valuable even though it was against Jewish custom for a Jweish man to speak to a Samaritan woman.

He taught women. (Luke 10:38-42) He protected women from being abandoned. (Mark 10:11, 12) Perhaps the most revolutionary step for his time was that Jesus accepted women into his inner circle of friends. (Luke 8:1-3)

As the perfect embodiment of all of God’s qualities, Jesus showed that individuals of both sexes have equal value in God’s eyes. In fact, among the early Christians, both men and women received the gift of the holy spirit. (Acts 2:1-4, 17, 18)

For those anointed, who have the prospect of serving as kings and priests with Christ, there will be no distinction of gender at all once resurrected to heavenly life. (Galatians 3:28)