Women need to shut up and sit down, page 2
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reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 07:51 PM by LDragonFire
In the Roman Catholic tradition the Virgin Mary is held up as a role model for women. She symbolizes female "virtues" such as obedience, submission, chastity and silence. In fervent Catholic countries, Catholic women are encouraged to emulate her. In fact the more women submit and self-efface themselves the more they are praised for being “good” Christian women. The Roman Catholic Church glorifies one woman while it rubbishes all the rest.


I’m amazed at the length people will go to defend faith’s that condone this type of behavior against women. To claim one sex over the other in such a blatant fashion is the product of an Male,immature, insecure, weak mind.

Is this the mind of God? The pattern seems to say yes. I ask is this a God of Love or a God of control?

It is time women saw the bible for what it is: a man-made, primitive "revelation"! No woman with a shred of self-esteem would want to demean herself by bowing to such tyrannical and self-effacing absolutes. Every time a woman submits to such demotion she throws away her sell-worth. Women's self-worth is anathema to fundamentalists who accuse women of being selfish and ungiving.
WOMEN IN THE BIBLE


Submissiveness is not male of female based, it is a human trait. Eve questioned God, thank God, because somebody had too. Just look at his works, thousands of years of war and killing in his name. Thank God it’s a religion based in Love, or is it really about control and domination?

Still, I was shocked this week by the report on a conference of 5,000 Catholic men in Boston, and the results of a little Googling of Opus Dei (yes, I’m reading The Da Vinci Code). The Boston conference report and my readings on Opus Dei--and its Father John McCloskey--reminded me again that religious fundamentalism, be it Protestant, Muslim, Jewish or Catholic, is a destructive force that is polarizing cultures and wrecking lives.
As a Boston Herald report described the event: “Men are the ‘natural’ heads of their families and should persuade their wives to give up birth control, quit their jobs and home-school their children, a keynote speaker at the annual Boston Catholic Men’s Conference said yesterday. ‘The first thing we have to do is get you off the birth control,’ Sean Forrest instructed his audience of 5,000 men to tell their wives.
The bigotry of Catholic conservatives


It continues to this day, and Millions still follow this self destructive child like belief. This is not based in Goodness, Love or Joy. It is based on insecurities, and hate. It is not based on free will, in this regards women have no choice but to “smile, shake their head yes and to do what ever their man tells them to do, and to agree with what ever they say”.

Please, the argument that this was the way of the world in the days the bible was written is at best a weak argument, if it was wrong back then and is wrong today, it is just wrong.


reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 07:53 PM by parrhesia
reply to post by LDragonFire



This is a fine example of the pervasiveness of sexism. Women assisting in maintaining their own oppression by supporting churches and religions that see them as inferior. You often hear people exclaim that women are treated as equals now. Not that this is an example of otherwise, but is an example of the mechanisms behind sexist attitudes being maintained in society by both males and females.


reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 08:00 PM by LDragonFire
Originally posted by parrhesia
reply to
post by LDragonFire



This is a fine example of the pervasiveness of sexism. Women assisting in maintaining their own oppression by supporting churches and religions that see them as inferior. You often hear people exclaim that women are treated as equals now. Not that this is an example of otherwise, but is an example of the mechanisms behind sexist attitudes being maintained in society by both males and females.


It's amazing to me that this has been going on for thousands of years, and they are still attempting to manipulate laws to enforce their positions. Are male's really that afraid of a strong willed woman, with opinions?

I'm most attracted too women that can think for themselves, that make decisions for themselves, to be sexual equals. or just equal.

The husband should be the head of the household arbitrarily, without question is just crazy, what if he is a idiot?


reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 08:06 PM by parrhesia
reply to post by LDragonFire



It is amazing to me, too. Both as a feminist and as an atheist.

While I'm sure some men are indeed threatened by women being regarded as true equals (afterall, they would lose their automatic privilege that comes along with simply being men), I think that often the issue, particularly with religion as a basis for opinions and beliefs, is that these beliefs are indoctrinated at an early age. The association of such beliefs with the divine, for some, perhaps cements it even more?

What if he's an idiot? Women and children suffer? What a surprise.


reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 08:12 PM by parrhesia
reply to post by Kacen



I see your point, but is the rejection of today's so-called femininity, or even the femininity of yesteryear better when it is substituted for so-called masculine clothing an/or behaviour?

Isn't that sexism still in action? Isn't that still reinforcing gender roles and values?


reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 08:15 PM by Kacen
Originally posted by parrhesia
reply to
post by Kacen



I see your point, but is the rejection of today's so-called femininity, or even the femininity of yesteryear better when it is substituted for so-called masculine clothing an/or behaviour?

Isn't that sexism still in action? Isn't that still reinforcing gender roles and values?


I was merely stating my personal preference in a spouse, well one of them.

But still, really, it just sickens me how it's all just designed to feminize them...but yeah it is kinda reverse. I guess it's pushing the pendulum in the other direction.

Personally, I hope we can eliminate all stereotypical gender roles so people are just who they want to be without subconscious indoctrination.


reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 08:18 PM by parrhesia
reply to post by Kacen



You're tellin' me.

The sexualization of women is sickening, sure.
But really, I don't necessarily see the solution as women becoming more like men. Why don't men become more like women?

It's the gender roles and their associated values that are hugely problematic. Now I don't know if doing away with them would solve these sorts of issues, but I do think it is a step in the right direction in many ways.



reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 08:23 PM by Kacen
Originally posted by parrhesia
reply to
post by Kacen



You're tellin' me.

The sexualization of women is sickening, sure.
But really, I don't necessarily see the solution as women becoming more like men. Why don't men become more like women?

It's the gender roles and their associated values that are hugely problematic. Now I don't know if doing away with them would solve these sorts of issues, but I do think it is a step in the right direction in many ways.





Yeah...hmm...

Notice how most feminists though tend to dress like men, shorten their hair just to spite people, and to show who they are...hmm.

Thing is there are a lot of difficulties; changing laws is one thing, in this country law-wise women are equal to men now; however culturally in many places that is not true.

It's like if you went into Saudi Arabia right now, overthrew the government and granted equality etc between men and women it is not like they would all be equal in an instant, hell I wouldn't be surprised if a good amount of the women still acted the way they did because that is what they were used to.

That is the problem, it is so complex, it is so hard to change culture.


reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 08:37 PM by parrhesia
reply to post by Kacen



Well you hit the nail on the head:
Formal vs. Substantial freedoms.

Women are legally equal.
Socially it's not so.
The same can be said for racism. Legally, all races are equal, but there are substantial differences in treatment. But that's not the topic here.

At any rate, you're right, it takes time to change a culture, especially a culture that resists change at its very core because the culture is misoginyst at its roots - hence religions grip, hence ingrained sexism, hence claims of womens equality.
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