The Disease of Mindless Patriotism, My Thoughts

reply to post by Level X

Originally posted by Level X
MAGIC,

Good job... I'm with you on this one. This is a typical reaction of "Super Patriot" as coined in my earlier post.

This is the only part of your post I needed to read:

These are the type of individuals who snob homeless, wheel chair bound Vets on a New York street corner. Then, patriotically come home and snug up to a cozy fire wapped in the American flag --- I've seen it with my own eyes

Seen it with your own eyes, have you? For you to have seen in with your own eyes suggests that this is the type of household you live in. It is apparent that you are describing your own life, you describe it so well.

And your attempt to inject a racist element into the argument shows your true nature.

It's no wonder your post comes across as so bitter and pathetic.:shk:

[edit on 12-10-2007 by jsobecky]

One thing that generally seems to escape notice is that "patriotism" as practised in America involves not only a love of one's country, but a love and dedication to the principles upon which it was founded, as set forth in the Constitution. By definition, therefore, there is no such thing as "mindless patriotism". There may be "blind obedience to the government", but patriotism is a conscious and intentional choice. Every member of every military service takes an oath to "uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic". Foreign AND DOMESTIC.

Patriotism means standing up for and defending everything our country stands for, for better or for worse, against all opponents, and opposing those things that are inimical to our way of life and beliefs.

So explain to me what's wrong with patriotism.

i'd like to make a challenge to people on here: find me another nation that claims to be #1... no #1 in healthcare, #1 in employment, not #1 in a category or on merit, just "#1"

you won't. it just america that does it.

...and RR, patriotism... well, too much of anything is a bad thing. too much patriotism leads to blindness

reply to post by jsobecky


Too late, Jso. It's already been done. They couldn't be more mistaken, either. I, for one, have never thought you to be blindly superpatriotic, certainly no more than I, yet here we are being labeled anyway.

*************************************************************

Once more, just for giggles, a "super-patriot" is one who, for lack of a better phrase, believes that his/her country can do no wrong, period, full stop. I haven't seen any of that here yet. Do I happen to believe that America is superior in many ways to most countries? Yeah, I do. But no where does that imply, or state, that I am blindly ignorant of it faults of which there are many. No country is perfect, certainly not this one. We've many skeletons in the closet, more than some, fewer than others. Few countries, however, in my experiance; take themselves to task over those skeletons than we do as a whole.

reply to post by Level X


You really should give the racist stuff a rest, my friend. We can certainly agree to disagree without that sort of stuff. Jso is no more a racist than I am.

Yeah, we're both caucasion, and male. So? Care to attempt to point out anything racist he's said, or me for that matter? Since your post implies that all whites are racist. Have at it...

reply to post by grover


just imagine if they start the inquisition again to make you become "religious "and see their "light"----she would knocking down doors of the employment office demanding to be made the chief inquisitor-----------then wouldn't she have fun with you?instead of stickers it would be "other things" she might take an interest in ripping off------for your good----of course ?

reply to post by RR98



RR,

There is nothing wrong with patriotism. As I put forth in my opening post I learned Patriotism from my parents, My granfather who faught in WWII, The Boy Scouts (Im an Eagle scout BTW) etc. And you definition of pstriotism is EXACTLY what I was refering too.

However, many in power have used our inherent patriotism to thier own political ends. Those sucked into such manipulation, such rhetoric, are in that "Mindless Patriotism" mode.

I've been following this thread for some time and giving a response a bit of thought.

Am I an American patriot? Yes I am and proudly so.

What is a patriot? In my opinion it is a person who loves the country and the ideals upon which it was founded. It is a person who can and does look at their country and see both it's strength and it's faults. We celebrate our countries strength and seek to eliminate and reduce it's faults. A country is made up of people and in our case people from every walk of life and encompassing every faith and possible belief system. Does the United States have it's faults well of course it does as does every country. The difference is we air our dirty laundry in public and seek to improve.

Level X I've known Seagull his entire life and through his posts I've gotten to jso. I can speak to Seagull's character he is not a mindless individual nor has he ever been a racist. Yes, jso and Seagull are white males; so what. Seems to me that you are the one with the racist or should I more accurately say the one inclined to judge based on gender and skin tone then those two fine gentlemen. Remember; when you point a finger at some one else look down; how many are pointing right back at you?

Nothing Personal

I just want to butt in really quick and applaud the degree of civility and restraint in this thread. It speaks volumes of the extraordinary quality and character of our members.

I hope I can be forgiven for being a little concerned that we might be starting to get a little bit ad hominem here and there, and want to make sure we don't go too far down that road.

I'm no saint myself, and am known to inject myself into the debate now and then (like now? ), but to the extent we can all distinguish between the opinion and the person who holds it, we all win.

If you find yourself tempted to label, stereotype or otherwise brand another member in some way, I ask that you give it a second thought or two, and try instead to focus on your disagreement with whatever opinions that member holds, rather than attack that member personally.

The difference can seem subtle, but it's important.

All We Are Saying...

When you condemn another person, the only logical response is defensiveness and disagreement.

But when you single out a specific opinion without condemning the person who holds it, you leave the door open for understanding, possible agreement and yes, even Denying Ignorance.

Believe me, I know it's not easy, and I fall woefully short of the goal myself far more often than I'd like, but I challenge you nonetheless to give it a try.

To put it another way, and with admittedly a rather polar analogy, you can argue from hate, or argue from love.

Though it may seem somewhat silly, and I'll totally understand if you scoff at this, I hope you can give love a chance.

Originally posted by gallopinghordes
I've been following this thread for some time and giving a response a bit of thought.

Level X I've known Seagull his entire life and through his posts I've gotten to jso. I can speak to Seagull's character he is not a mindless individual nor has he ever been a racist. Yes, jso and Seagull are white males; so what. Seems to me that you are the one with the racist or should I more accurately say the one inclined to judge based on gender and skin tone then those two fine gentlemen. Remember; when you point a finger at some one else look down; how many are pointing right back at you?

Guy's (Ajax, Seagull, Jso, and the Galloping man) After reading your posts I hold all of you as intellectuals and in the highest regard. Your passion, compassion and understanding on this subject confirm to me that you are patriot's of honor.

I'm sorry if I came off a bit racist -- this is not and never will be my agenda. But will say -- Jso's visual alter to John Wayne may be pushing it a bit.



[edit on 13-10-2007 by Level X]

[edit on 10/23/07 by FredT]

reply to post by Level X


I appreciate your response. As I said I've known Seagull his whole life.

Also just so you know I'm a woman not a man that's what it says on my driver's license and the state wouldn't lie to me or would it.........

We can be loyal to our country but we also need to question. Thats true patriotism not just mindless loyalty.

Level X. In my last post I came down rather harder than I needed to, and I regret that. I can disagree with you without resorting to name calling.

I was angry, but that is no excuse. I owe you an apology, and you have it. As I said above, I can disagree without the vitrioul.

I think the main problem with patriotism is that to varying degrees we do feel loyal to our country and its peoples but the problem is its a bit like religion, there is always some one trying to steal and subvert those patriotic feelings for their own end.

And once a person is in its grip many find it hard to break free and to be able to see what is good healthy patriotism say such as representing your country in the Olympic games and those of the brainwashed variety who would murder their own kids if ordered to or somebody else's.

The truth is that there is exterism on all sides be it kids brainwashed by religion or political ideals but that to me is not patriotism that is fanatism and is very dangerous.

I think we can all agree that true patriotism is not mindless loyalty, regardless of actions. Patriotism is loving ones country warts and all, but being willing to remove the warts as necessary.

Being willingly blind to the faults of your country is to be a fool. A loyal fool, yes, but a fool never the less.

Some Additional Thoughts...

Stephan Decatur said it best,

"Our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right; but right or wrong, our country."

This toast best exemplifies what a patriot should be. One can love ones country, yet not be blinded by that love of country. One can love ones country, and not be blind to its faults.

Patriotism is, in its truest form, a love of country, acknowledging its faults, working to correct them, yet despite those faults, loving it for what it was, what it is, and what it could be.

Patriotism is celebrating all that is good in ones's country. Patriotism is working to fix what is wrong. What patriotism isn't, is blind. Blind to those who would use our love of country against us, no matter the reason.

Patriotism can never, ever be blind. Lest our freedom be snatched away whilst we aren't looking.

Originally posted by traderonwallst
reply to post by neformore

 

purports to represent?????? Tell that to the millions of Americans throughout history that gave their life to defend a hill where that flag stood. Tell that to the millions of Americans who fought bravely under that flag. To some people, like myself, the flag is not a piece of cloth and I am offended that others feel that way. The flag represents the freedom of all Americans. Freedoms that were given to you simply because you were born here (or moved here legally and became citizens). These freedoms were afforded to you because people felt an obligation to defend and in some cases attack an enemy to gaurantee those freedoms. If you are an American you do a dis-service to your fellow Americans fighting around the world to protect your freedoms at home. If you are not an American, I understand your disdain for us. Please do not refer to my flag as a simple peice of cloth...........

What does that flag now represent?

Can I also tell the same Americans who gave their all for this country the truth about why they did it and who they did it for? Because what a lot of them thought at the time (let us not forget) was a completely different story. It was the same "noble cause" spritzed up with this great patriotic music and glamour, parades and celebrity quotes and all the rest of that great american plastic BS that is not the truth.

Nothing has changed.

Same bull, different day.

Today, we're "spreading democracy", and STILL "liberating the iraqi people", and all that other bunk. "Mission Accomplished" right?

And far as freedom goes, I beg to differ. We see examples of our freedom every day in the paper where pregnant woman are tazed, soldiers are blown to pieces by people who resist illegal occupation, and politicians create complete catastrophes built on greed, lies, and scare tactics on our dime...and get away with it!

Who's free? If I were free, I could choose to not pay for this crap and not be thrown in prison for it. Maybe I don't want to be a part of buying weapons to kill people. Maybe I know a little about that. Maybe it sucks?

And there is not one soldier fighting to protect our freedoms at home. That's a lie! On the contrary, while they think they are fighting for our freedoms at home god bless them, their leaders who lied them to where they are now are taking our freedoms away here.

While I love my country, I sure as hell am not proud to be an American in any way as of late. What example do we currently have to be proud of in the presence of our international peers?

Man, I am proud we're broke. I'm proud we've destroyed our credibility. I'm proud we're in such hock that our industry is in shambles and I have to learn a second language to get microsoft support from "bruce". I'm proud that our cars are overpriced junk. I'm proud that we have no control over elections and that once again, another jerk is going to do their part toward screwing up our credibility even more.

And most of all, I'm proud that marine recruiters stooped so low as to come to my 9 year old child's school today with their captured saddam iraqi dinar souvenirs and their BDUs like it's cool to solicit young impressionable children to do the bidding of their psychotic masters in killing other people for their wealth and resources.....something the people you are mentioning can totally relate to I'm willing to wager.

Yeah I'm pretty fed up one might say.

It sickens me that all it takes to make today's people think history was something it was not, is to play walter cronkite's voice over some scratchy 1940s music with dramatic footage on the history channel.

I am sorry that I know better than that. And truth be told, I don't have to explain myself to the people you mentioned. They learned it the hard way.