The Disease of Mindless Patriotism, My Thoughts, page 6

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reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 01:02 PM by magicmushroom

Grover I hear what your saying but in loving your country etc. means you support your Goverment and its actions, you cannot split hairs on this matter, you either agree or disagree.

What does your country stand for, a once great democracy is going down the pan, hijacked by corporate greed, run by traitors to the constitution and its people.

reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 01:02 PM by Kernel Korn

The Kernel doesn't approve of flag burning, but violence is just plain ungentlemanly under most circumstances. There are exceptions of course. Such as when someone punches you in the face for excersizing your God given rights.

Additionally there is a lack of logic here. If I was traumatized by seeing my son killed by a drunk driver, would I be justified sir, in coming up on your veranda and punch you if I saw you enjoying some fine Mash?

Good day.

reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 01:08 PM by kosmicjack

Originally posted by traderonwallst
reply to post by neformore

... If the flag is damaged we have protocol on how the flag is to be destroyed properly.... I am done with this thread, as I have given enough of my time defend my OPINION...Everyone have a good day and I am sure I will see you all in other threads, no doubt disagreeing with me again. But thats what ATS is all about...Debate.

I believe those same regulations state that when the flag is no longer fit to represent the ideals for which it stands for it is to be BURNED. Ironic.

Farewell for now Trader, you are a tenacious opponent and I thank you. By the way, I would fight for your right to state your opinion.

[edit on 10/10/2007 by kosmicjack]

reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 01:18 PM by neformore

reply to post by traderonwallst

Thanks for the lesson on how you look after your piece of cloth.

Here in England we have a piece of cloth too. Its called the Union Jack. I daresay there are people who see it in much the same light as you see yours. It gets flown at football games etc and at special events, and it must be hardier than yours because it gets flown in the wind and rain etc.

Now I'm as patriotic an Englishman as you'll find. If another nation was threatening this country with invasion, determined to destroy our way of life - your typical WW2 Nazi operation Sealion scenario - then I'd be out there with others of my kind defending where I live etc - as would, I suspect, any patriot.

If I saw someeone burning our piece of cloth (and I know I keep using that analogy but bear with me) then I'd probably ask them why they were doing it, what their protest represented and why they felt that setting fire to a piece of cloth was going to help. I'd probably also point out to them that burning a piece of cloth is a bit pointless, as there are thousands if not millions of other pieces of cloth that are coloured the same, maybe have a bit of a chuckle about it and go on my way.

No assault there. No punching in the face. I'd still be the same old patriotic Englishman, but I wouldn't see the need for violence.

The world would be less one piece of cloth, thats all.

[edit] - I find it kind of ironic that you chastise me for having an opinion when you repeatedly state your right to have yours. it has to work both ways, surely?

[edit on 10/1007/07 by neformore]

reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 01:32 PM by grover

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Grover I hear what your saying but in loving your country etc. means you support your Goverment and its actions, you cannot split hairs on this matter, you either agree or disagree.

Teddy Roosevelt for one gave a famous speech on this very subject and in essence totally disagreeing with your assertion; as did Lincoln when he said that, "It is a sin to be silent when it is your duty to protest." In that statement he was referring to those who were picketing the White House in protest of his polices regarding the Civil war.

reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 01:34 PM by jsobecky

reply to post by neformore

Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by jsobecky
The problem with this thread is insiduous. It is an attempt to nullify our notions of patriotism, and an attempt to redfine it along the lines of someone else's agenda.

Ladies and gentlemen, be careful what and who you salute - the wolf often comes disguised in the coat of a lamb.

Strikes me that the thread is addressing the very issue to which you refer, and that is that the notion of "patriotism" has been shanghaied to one side of the argument by the neocons.

Or is that what you meant?

It's the exact opposite of what I mean.

I don't see it as being shanghaied. I do see it being attacked as a concept in our society, much the same as respect for authority and religion. But as long as there are those who try to associate patriotism with neo-cons, it will tend to make some people shy away from being patriotic because they don't want to be called a neo-con.

Now, I will admit that there are mindless patriots in every society. And they can and are manipulated by sinister forces working towards nefarious ends. But these mindless patriots are very few and far between. And they have a right to their views the same as you or I have a right to ours.

It troubles me when I hear people talking about it's OK to burn the flag. Or boasting that they would never put a bumper sticker promoting the USA on their car.

These same people would have no objection to wallpapering their lives with "ATS Rooolz" slogans, however.

Talk about manipulation.

There are forces at work in our society that try to undermine some very primary and healthy notions. Patriotism, for one.

So I put bumper stickers on my car. So I wear a flag pendant on the 4th, and I display Old Glory during the year. I take my hat off and place my hand over my heart when the Star Spangled banner plays.

Does this make me gullible? Or manipulate-able? Or just an old fashion guy who doesn't care about what others think, but who still thinks the flag means more than a piece of fabric made in China?

When I hear of people who try to demean or belittle the importance and seriousness of phrases such as patriotism, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up instinctively. Why? I ask myself. Why are they doing that? What are they trying to achieve?

reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 01:53 PM by kosmicjack

reply to post by jsobecky

I think your point is well made that we should question all attempts to marginalize or categorize people based on a politcal or social agenda. Even one like Patriotism.

However, I still agree with the OP. I say the pledge. I wear pins. I put up flags. But the OPs point is that these actions are meant only to symbolize support for the ideals they represent - it is not actual support. Instead they have been co-opted as the full extent of Patriotism. The greatest depth to which it reaches. Just a gesture.

I feel that many Americans confuse nostalgia and tradition for Patriotism. Flying the flag is a tradition. Wearing a pin is a tradition. Fourth of July picnics and fireworks are a tradition. These all create very fond memories, but they should not be the full extent to which we support and defend the ideals of our country. Unfortunately for the vast majority of Americans - it is.

So, when in discussions like this, we question the meaning of Patriotism, I think people tend to get defensive because they interpret it as questioning their memories or heritage. They cannot separate the two distinct issues. Maybe it is indoctrination and conditioning, maybe it's just another form of shallow Patriotism.

reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 01:54 PM by magicmushroom

JSOBECKY, Because patriotism means nationalism and blind support of your Goverment irrespective of its actions, it means that you as an individual surrender you free thinking to those who rule.

Patriots die for their country, no they dont, they die for corporate greed and political dogma. All the troops that have fought and died in Iraq etc, have not made the US/UK safer, they have not made their citizens richer, but they have made billions for the arms industry and furthered political ambition.

How can one be proud of ones country when they wage war on innocents and those with no means of fighting back, how can you be proud of a nation that murders its own men, women and children, how can one be proud of a corrupt and lying Goverment. You can only do that if your patriotism blinds you to the reality of what your Goverment does and stands for because free thinking individuals would know what is right and what is wrong and would not support such a regime.

reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 01:59 PM by neformore

Originally posted by jsobecky
I don't see it as being shanghaied. I do see it being attacked as a concept in our society, much the same as respect for authority and religion. But as long as there are those who try to associate patriotism with neo-cons, it will tend to make some people shy away from being patriotic because they don't want to be called a neo-con.

A good point and well put. It works both ways though, don't you think? Maybe the key to being patriotic is not caring about political affiliation?

Now, I will admit that there are mindless patriots in every society. And they can and are manipulated by sinister forces working towards nefarious ends. But these mindless patriots are very few and far between. And they have a right to their views the same as you or I have a right to ours.

Again, quite true, they have the right to their opinion. Its when they start using their opinion as a means to justify an attack on another that it becomes a problem though.

You've got me thinking so heres some food for thought.

The aspect of true patriotism is being loyal to your country and its principles, and that should hold its own political neutrality. Vote for who you choose, but a vote for one party and their viewpoint is no less patriotic that a vote for another one.

reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 02:21 PM by jsobecky

Originally posted by kosmicjack
reply to post by jsobecky

I think your point is well made that we should question all attempts to marginalize or categorize people based on a politcal or social agenda. Even one like Patriotism.

However, I still agree with the OP. I say the pledge. I wear pins. I put up flags. But the OPs point is that these actions are meant only to symbolize support for the ideals they represent - it is not actual support. Instead they have been co-opted as the full extent of Patriotism. The greatest depth to which it reaches. Just a gesture.

Well, that's merely the way it is in today's society. What else would you have someone do to show their true patriotism? Recite the Declaration of Independence, or memorize the Constitution?

It's like your mom. During the day, she'll give you a little peck on the cheek, but you know that that is not the depth of her love for you. She'd gladly give you a kidney, or more, if your life depended on it.

The same goes for patriotism. I don't have time to read the DoI during the day, so I have a bumper sticker. And if you burn the flag ( make fun of my mom for kissing me), well that makes me awful mad, even though it is your right to do so.

Weird analogy, I know, but I hope you get the points.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
JSOBECKY, Because patriotism means nationalism and blind support of your Goverment irrespective of its actions, it means that you as an individual surrender you free thinking to those who rule.

This is what I mean. Now, if I call myself a patriot, I equate myself a blind follower who has surrendered individual thinking, according to you.

WRONG!

How can one be proud of ones country when they wage war on innocents and those with no means of fighting back, how can you be proud of a nation that murders its own men, women and children, how can one be proud of a corrupt and lying Goverment. You can only do that if your patriotism blinds you to the reality of what your Goverment does and stands for because free thinking individuals would know what is right and what is wrong and would not support such a regime.

As I mentioned in my original post, your definition of patriotism is incorrect, and an attempt to associate the word with weakness. I don't agree.

Originally posted by neformore

A good point and well put. It works both ways though, don't you think? Maybe the key to being patriotic is not caring about political affiliation?

Patriotism never has been about political affiliation. Affiliation is an irrelevant attribute.

reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 02:43 PM by shanti23

So, when in discussions like this, we question the meaning of Patriotism

KosmicJack

I agree. This is a bottomless argument around the relative definition of a word.

Nationalism is a force for separation and conflict. Our strength is used against us, amplifying our weakness. The 'mission' is tainted and people need to start working towards rejoining the human race, for all our sakes.

And I'm don't mean a New World Order

...but you can bet that's gonna be the solution

Incidentally, on the OP - anyone remember Smedley Darlington Butler

A true patriot?

I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business

Smedley Darlington Butler

[edit on 10/10/07 by shanti23]

reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 03:04 PM by jtma508

In my mind Smedley was THE American patriot. If it were not for him we'd already be living in a fascist country. Where is today's Smedley when we need him/her?

reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 03:15 PM by Majic

The Disease Of Mindless Redefinition

Originally posted by shanti23
I agree. This is a bottomless argument around the relative definition of a word.

When there is disagreement about the meanings of words, I prefer to go with credible sources:

Dictionary.com: Patriotism

pa·tri·ot·ism
–noun
devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

(See source for other definitions)

Redefining words is a common but pointless debate technique, and one which I personally don't respect because it is ultimately dishonest.

If I decided to unilaterally redefine "right" as meaning "left" and "left" as "right", I wouldn't expect anyone to respect that either. A logical position doesn't require such canards or weak knock-offs of Abbott and Costello comedy routines.

As for the topic, much of the condemnation I've seen so far in the thread is no less sanctimonious or bigoted than the "patriotism" straw man that is being so enthusiastically pilloried.

Being a patriot requires only love, support, and defense of one's country, not hatred of all others, nor a "my country right or wrong" mentality.

I consider myself an American patriot in the dictionary sense of the word, and there's nothing mindless about that.

reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 04:01 PM by shanti23

When there is disagreement about the meanings of words, I prefer to go with credible sources:

Majic

Credible source?
Words and Symbols are open to redefinition, language is not rigid.

Patriotism is being redefined right now, by the actions of those who misuse it.

reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 04:06 PM by intrepid

The term used, an apt one may I add, is "mindless patriotism." I don't think "mindless" is open for interpretation.

reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 04:15 PM by Majic

A Terrible Thing To Waste

Originally posted by intrepid
The term used, an apt one may I add, is "mindless patriotism." I don't think "mindless" is open for interpretation.

Indeed, and I would like to emphasize that my objection is to the mischaracterization of all patriotism as "mindless patriotism", not to the thesis of this thread.

The excellent opening posts by Operation AJAX are careful to make the distinction and eloquently identify a very disturbing problem.

Missing that point, however, by muddying the clear distinction between love for one's country and blind obedience to authority is itself a very disturbing problem.

reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 04:19 PM by grover

reply to post by intrepid

Well there is Homer Simpson mindlessness and then there's three stooges mindlessness and then there's Bill O'Reilly mindlessness and then there's........

reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 04:21 PM by intrepid

Originally posted by grover
reply to post by intrepid

Well there is Homer Simpson mindlessness and then there's three stooges mindlessness and then there's Bill O'Reilly mindlessness and then there's........

Hey, don't you be dissing Homer. He's what I aspire to be. Overweight, bald, beer swilling......... oh wait.

reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 05:23 PM by grover

Well I am not bald....

reply posted on 10-10-2007 @ 07:20 PM by FredT

Originally posted by jtma508
In my mind Smedley was THE American patriot. If it were not for him we'd already be living in a fascist country. Where is today's Smedley when we need him/her?

In our current climate? Proabably on some HLS watchlist