The Disease of Mindless Patriotism, My Thoughts

reply to post by intrepid



You can not beat someone to death in self defense. There comes a point during that beating where you are no longer defending yourself, but becoming the aggresor. At that point you become indictable and will most likely be found guilty by a jury of your peers. Although you could be declared temporarily and not responsible for your actions. In that case, you have a small point, but the overall thesis of the arguement is not relevant to the thread.

I somehow missed this thread when I was creating a thread in Skunkworks called:
Barack, Don't Forget Your Nazi Party Pin...
Where I try to compare the American Flag Pins that came en vogue after 911 are a similar propaganda tool as the Nazi Party Pins during WW2. It is obviously a much more light hearted look than we have here.

It amazes me that in less than one hundred years the US went from fighting fascists, to becoming them themselves.

DocMoreau

reply to post by traderonwallst


It takes only one accidental blow to the throat to kill.

Edit: I'm not advocating this in any manner, just pointing out what could possibly happen in a given circumstance.



[edit on 10-10-2007 by intrepid]

Originally posted by traderonwallst
[You could not be more wrong. Our flag represents those beliefs. Atleast to an American like myself it does. I am sorry you can't see that.

But I do see that. More than most.

It puzzles me greatly that you are willing to embody the flag of our country with the very rights our Constitution and Bill of Rights embodies and turn around and deny me my right to perhaps the single biggest freedom we have; the right to self expression. By punching me in the face, you hav enot only commited bodily harm, but you have denied me MY rights as a citizen.

What is the greater folly here? Exersizing one rights or preventing someone from doing so?

Originally posted by intrepid
Ok trader, decide my fate.

1- I burn flag.

Intrepid,

I would not be a supporter of your burning the flag, but I would relish the fact that we live in a country that ALLOWS you as an individual the freedoms of speech to do so.

What could be so wrong about someone exesizing those rights guarranted by the Bill of Rights? WHo is the real patriot/ the one who exersizes his or her freedoms, or the one who seeks to deny those rights to others?

For me its the individual that choses to utilize thier freedoms.

Every time you exersize your freedoms as outlined by the constituiton, you defend and affirm those rights in a way that type of violence will never be able too.

reply to post by Operation AJAX



Personally I would never burn the flag but if someone attacked some that was, I'd deal with THAT individual. The flag is meaningless if the rights are not observed.

reply to post by Operation AJAX


Isn't punching someone in the face a right of self expression.. I bet I could argue in a court of law, that after witnessing the towers struck by airplanes and falling at my feet that a response like that to witnessing someone burning my flag would cause me to be temporarily insane. It would be a sad defense and I would hate to exploit the 9-11 terror incident, but I bet I could argue that defense and be cleared of all charges. It is a crazy world we live in, where does your rights end and where do they infringe upon me. I would rather you walk up to me and call me a commy and punch me in the face, than burn my flag in front of me. I am sure the response to your first action would not draw the same type of response that the second would draw. This is my opinion..........I am allowed to have opinions!!!!!!

[edit on 10-10-2007 by traderonwallst]

I have not read every entry in this thread, but the ones I have read all point to a common error in thinking and mistake in judgement.

That is, it seems that a patriot is automatically equated with someone who is a blind follower of the current administration. Therefore, if the current administration is faulty, your patrotism is faithless.

There are people who follow our leaders blindly. I do not. I would, however, put my own patriotism up against anybody here on ATS.

The problem with this thread is insiduous. It is an attempt to nullify our notions of patriotism, and an attempt to redfine it along the lines of someone else's agenda.

Ladies and gentlemen, be careful what and who you salute - the wolf often comes disguised in the coat of a lamb.

Originally posted by traderonwallst
Isn't punching someone in the face a right of self expression..

No. Its assault.

Burning a flag is destroying a piece of cloth. Once its incinerated, its over.

Punching someone in the face is physically assaulting another human being. It could lead to many outcomes - including death - as you have no idea of the medical condition or history of the person you assaulted.

Is your "pride" worth the death of another person?

Originally posted by jsobecky
The problem with this thread is insiduous. It is an attempt to nullify our notions of patriotism, and an attempt to redfine it along the lines of someone else's agenda.

Ladies and gentlemen, be careful what and who you salute - the wolf often comes disguised in the coat of a lamb.

Strikes me that the thread is addressing the very issue to which you refer, and that is that the notion of "patriotism" has been shanghaied to one side of the argument by the neocons.

Or is that what you meant?

The US is no longer a Democracy, the Facists have taken over, being a patriot today means removing the rights of others, do not challenge the Goverment and its policies. To speak out or demonstrate invites Police brutality or confinement, legislation that has obliterated the constitution goes unchallenged.

The people are fooled into thinking that nothing has changed that all thier rights and liberties still remain. Well if you think that wear a Tee Shirt proclaiming that Bush and his crew are war criminals etc. and se what happens, watch the abuse trown at you by so called patriots and enjoy being arrested for being unpatriotic.

The US is very near to becoming a dictatorship and all the signs are there, from PNAC to Patriot 1&2 the mechanisms are now in place to achieve that end. When a country starts murdering its own men women and childen you know things are getting worse.

Yet these blind patriots cannot see any of this, its as if their minds are locked to any logic or reason, that the powers that be can do no wrong and yes its right to kill hundreds of thousands of people in a third world country and yes its right to incarcerate your own people and torture them.

rThe America that the posters adore is GONE folks..gone. It was different back in the 50's and 60's to a degree, but now it is over. One poster actually said that the system insures change every 4 years or so..what a joke!! The people who RUN things on this planet are NOT politicians, but major international banking and corporate interests, along with some old time ruing families. The system is SET to perpetuate the decline of America, by plan, and to insure a global dictatorship with total control and a twp tier system: One for the rich, and one for the por; there will be NO middle class, that is dissolving as we speak.

If you see past the propaganda and hype, we are actually WORSE than some nations, and by far no better than many others. We have NO health care for our citizens, except thru profit driven rich guys clubs in insurance and such...we have NO housing for the homless and no shelters for families who missed a paycheck and lost a house. There are almost NO social services for the average person, no public transportation in most sreas..no jobs being created: most new jobs are in PRISONS and COPS positions, and thatg tells us a lot.

We are doomed, sitting back thinking we are free while we eat genetically altered hot dogs at a park with Astroturf and chemtrails overhead, morgellopns fibers drifting down while we inhale the ' free air ' of good old America..imagine that. We KNOW that 9-1 was pulled off by an inside group of AMERICANS and their pals from Israel, etc. who wanted to jump start the money game in oil and domination. We know that Cheney is as guilty as sin, and that Bush is a stooge for the real powers that be; yet we get all proud and teary eyed about Old Glory, when around the world now the flag is seen as a symbol of greed and avarice and death and lies..we used to have some good will, now that is gone.

Cops all over the nation are abusing people and getting away with it. Schools are becoming lockdowns to train a new generation of breeder and worker to put up with any intrusive testing of them and their body fluids for any purpose that they desire, and to tolerate lack of privacy as normal and cameras on every corner as ' safety ' from the big bad ' terrorists ', who do not even exist apart from the intel black op guys who use them for cover for their own ops as well as money makers, like all the coc aine and heroin found flying on CIA planes and hushed up by the scum on the networks.

The government is corrupt, totally so: There is not ONE senator or congressman that will come out and say that they don't accept the official story about 9-11 and want a new study done. Ron Paul is about the best, but he is far from perfect, and he WILL be Wellstoned before he gets too far along...we will hear soon about some tragic small plane crash that took out the only hope we had left, if there ever was any. No, we are too far gone: When there can be massive evidence of an inside job on 9-11 and the average American is so stupid and dumbed down that they don't know or don't care about it, then all is lost.

The average American is so concerned with his job, and mortgage, and sports scores, and families, that to ask them to think about troubling issues is a lost cause. They just don't want to know, even if proven facts. as it will upset their routine. We are slaves to the bad guys already, and just do not know how badly it really has gotten.Americans do NOT get out and demonstrate, not the midle class, the average people. They will TRUST the myth that the government is actually run by decent people who are patriotic, and they just cannot grasp the FACT that America has been taken from within, by a coup, by force and murder, and with the approval of the politicians, who have covered it up and done nothing to get the truth out.

So America might as well haul the old falg down anyway and put up the new Neocon flag, whatever it is..the NAU flag no doubt..as our flag has lost its meaning: The constitution is the heart and soul of the flag, and now that the constitution has been shredded and shat upon by the Bush cabal, why bother to defend it anymore? What are we defending? Freedom? Are we free? We must have a passport to go anywhere and ID for anything at all..roadblocks anywhere at anytime the cops want to stop and bother us..crowds arrested without cause for merely daring to gather together, as in NY for the conventions..FREE? No way are we free. Spied upon by the NSA, our mail and phones and emails..free to breathe the air polluted by chemtrails and nanotech alien garbage...really free, huh?

We are being dragged into fascism by our short hairs and the Dems are too craven to object and too compromised to fight back. MONEY is the God of the politicians of today. Control and money..the game is in full swing. The flag is just another propaganda tool to keep the warm bodies flowing into the oil wars..thats the bottom line. Wave the flag and die for George and buddies!! Remember when George the scum said : " they hate us for our freedoms ".? remember that? Did anyone stop and wonder who on earth hates freedom? No one does. It is human nature to want to be free.

They hate us because we are global bullies with big guns and lots of money to give to cooperative thugs who will facilitate our money grubbing domination schemes. We invade other peoples lands based on LIES, PROVEN lies and yet the media is silent about it and the rest of the politicians say ' Move on, not worth fighting about..no way to get rid of his".. Blah blah. There are a core of Republicans who are determined to ruin America by agreeing with everything Bush does and orders. They cannot get a veto on Bush because of the awful and disgusting senators and others who wink and nod and take the money...owing allegiance to the far right religious nuts who WANT Armageddon for us all so they can escape all the nastiness by being Raptured..they really believe this stuff!!

So America is gone, the patriotic fervor that one used to feel thinking about a land where all men were equal and able top live their lives totally free unless they bothered others..that fervor now replaced by a shamed silence when confronted by the facts: We are the most jailed population on earth, with 60% of all prisoners in for nonviolent ' offenses ' such as using pot...we have the worst health care of any 1st rate nation, with vast numbers of us not able to afford health care, thousands dying every year from preventable diseases..a military that takes an obscene amount of money every year to keep invading and bombing ever more innocent regions,all based on lies.

Ask some dumb ' love it or leave it ' type American about the Downing Street memo and its signifigance, and you will be met with a dumbfounded look and a ' what ' as a response. The average Joe does not know the evidence, and never will as long as the major networks are in collusion to avoid the truth at all costs. Most people will not think about the subjects that count because it is too upsetting, and life is hard enough as it is without having to consider the fact of your nation being taken over by criminals, a totally incompetent political structure to deal with it, massive evidence of murder and other crimes by our leaders, proven lying and perjury, etc.

If I could afford to leave America, I would. Now. Before it is too late to leave, and we are either controlled totally or forced to live like slaves to the system. There are still a few places on Earth where the people get out and raise hell when the governments go too far, and they can be gotten to easily..but it takes money Big money to transplant from the USA to another land, far from the horrors to come. It is a delay only, sooner or later all of the earth will be reached by them, but for now the short list of nations that welcome immigrants with a few bucks and a desire to be really free should be studied by anyone who would consider leaving, like me

Originally posted by traderonwallst
If you are an American you do a dis-service to your fellow Americans fighting around the world to protect your freedoms at home.

What freedoms would those be? What freedom is a soldier in Iraq proctecting for you? Please be specific and tell me what freedom you had that was under threat prior to the Iraq war.

If you are not an American, I understand your disdain for us.

I dislike your government. I dislike the Neocon way of thinking. I dislike ignorance. None of those apply to all Americans. Why do you believe I "disdain" you?

Please do not refer to my flag as a simple peice of cloth...........

Why not? Thats what it is. As someone succinctly pointed out earlier it will probably have been made in China, or Korea, or Taiwan and not had touched the US in any way shape or form until it comes out of a container.

Its cloth.

[edit on 10/1007/07 by neformore]

Actually the whole notion of flag burning is a right wing knee jerk ploy, especially when you consider that by law our flags are made of flame retardant material, and the ones who make so much noise in Congress about flag burning, know it, after all they wrote the law.

BTW Josbecky... you are incorrect. To blindly follow any administration, liberal or conservative, Republican or Democratic is wrong.

Administrations are made of politicians and party activists. They are not MY country, regardless of affiliation, when I took my oath, I swore to uphold the constitution, not them.

I love my country, I (barely) tolerate its politicians.

[edit on 10-10-2007 by grover]

reply to post by eyewitness86


Completely irrelevant to this thread. Go to a more appropriate thread to get on your soapbox and make speaches.

reply to post by traderonwallst


I disagree... it is quite timely.

I love my country but I am not blind to its warts either and for all of us, liberal or conservative, Republican or Democrat, our goal should be to continue making this a better and better society, and in order to do that we need to know its faults.

Eyewitness as you can see with Traders remarks the patriots are blind and incapable of free thinking logical thought. Many of the comments you made are true but even when the truth and reality is staring these people in the face they still cannot or will not see it till its too late.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Eyewitness as you can see with Traders remarks the patriots are blind and incapable of free thinking logical thought.

I disagree with that as well. There are knee jerk patriots who are my country right or wrong jingoists but at the same time, there are many, perhaps far more, who love our country and consider ourselves patriots who do not share that trait.

I also thought the post by EW86 was completely relevant and addressed "mindless patriotism" quite well.

God it must suck to be a conservative and have your ideology scrutinized and shown to be an illusion propped up by obvious propaganda.

reply to post by neformore


For your information OUR FLAG is not just a piece of cloth and we even have regulations in this country on how it is to be flown, when it is to be flown, why it is to be flown. We have regulations protecting the the very fabric of the flag and regulations on how it is to be properly disposed of. We also have regulations not allowing anyother flag of ANY nation to be flown above our flag on our soil. The soil of the United Nations belongs to the people of the world (thats for another thread) and our regulations do not exist there.

Despite what you think, our FLAG is more than just fabric. Its was defines us. It has meaning. We recognize it with its own holiday first celebrated in 1877. The white in the flag signifies purity and innocence, the red signifies hardiness and valor, and the blue signifies vigilince, perserverance and justice. Now I am sure all you out there can find other meanings of those colors, and I am sure your all gonna post it for your own amusement, but I believe in our flag, I believe in our country and the people that defend it.

We even have prtocol as to how a flag should be mounted on a flag pole and how it proceeds up the pole and down the pole. A light must always shine on our flag at night. Our flag is to be seen with pride. You should not fly our flag during inclement weather, for the flag should not be damaged. If the flag is damaged we have protocol on how the flag is to be destroyed properly. You see, our flag is MORE than just a piece of cloth...... I would die to defend that flag.

I dare to say that this is not just an Ameridan feeling either. Have you ever watched a European soccer (futbol) match? Ever count how many6 flags of the respected nations playing are present? Probably almost as many as fans in the stadium. Each one of those flags represent the nation. They sign anthems to those flags, as do we here in the states. I would not attempt remove one of those flags for fear of my life. Its not just Americans who see their flag as so much more than a piece of cloth or just some simple fabric. Its patriots. We here in America do not own the patent on Patriotism, it is felt throughout the world. And most often can be seen in the presence of that nation's flag.

I am done with this thread, as I have given enough of my time defend my OPINION.

Everyone have a good day and I am sure I will see you all in other threads, no doubt disagreeing with me again. But thats what ATS is all about...Debate.