The Disease of Mindless Patriotism, My Thoughts

reply to post by Operation AJAX


And also to intrepid:

Yes and Yes.

The Constitution spells-out how government is to operate. It specifically places limitations on government. Instituting partial-martial-law is all they've done.

War on Terror? esdad, I'm 55. I've never been sniped walking to my car or anywhere else. Before or since the WOT. Back in the fifties they told us the commies were coming. None did. In the sixties they said that if we didn't stop communism in North Vietnam they'd come here and get us. We lost that war. I'm still waiting for them to come and get us. They do run a very nice nail salon down the street, though. So now it's OBL and the terrorists playing the role of the boogeyman.

There's always going to be some group spoiling to screw with us. Maybe if we spent more time fixing things here at home and less time screwing with other people's countries we'd have less terror. When I was a kid the USSR was the boogeyman. They were defeated. Not by bullets and bombs --- at least not by our shooting them. They were bankrupted trying to sustain an unsustainable international arms race.

You'd think we would have learned something from that. What's the pricetag these days? $3,000,000,000,000 a year? We could sure do alot with that back here at home.

Theres another issue that goes with "blind patriotism" and thats education.

I find, personally, that the most over zealous US "patriots" I come across on the net, and in person, really have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to the rest of the world. They stew in a smug cocoon of what amounts to almost your stereotypical Nazi-like superiority and have no idea about cultural diversity and no tolerance for people who don't see things their way, and no desire to learn.

Its all polarised. Black and white. How do you tell someone who can't possibly accept their own failings that they are wrong?

reply to post by neformore


I agree. It's uncomfortable to consider that your own personal reality isn't what it seems. My dad was an Army officer, WWII veteran. He was as straight-laced, salt-of-the-earth as they come. When the whole Nixon/Watergate thing happened it was as if someone whacked him upside the head with a board. It shook him to the core that the government could be anything but 100% on the up-and-up.

reply to post by neformore


I work with one of these people. He says that we need to nuke Iraq, Iran, and N. Korea because all of those people are crazy. Another person I work with is exactly the opposite and believes just about every conspiracy theory there is from OBL working for the US government to the illuminati, NWO and plans to reduce the population by billions. The first one always votes Republican and the second doesn't vote because 'they are all exactly the same'. IMO, there isn't really much of a difference between the two. Neither one is doing anything to change things for the better.

Originally posted by DCP
kosmicjack,
please expand on what you said. To me "acknowledge the mess and deal with it" and "arrogantly tries to fix it" goes hand in hand. . I am reading your post like you want action, but you don't like who acknowledges what the mess is. To me, if a leader thinks "x" is a problem and doesn't arrogantly tries to fix it then he is not a leader but a politician.

But how do you get a better America? Is it by blindly supporting our government as it wrecklessly tries to police the world or arrogantly tries to fix it? Or is it through debate and analysis of our own problems. A plan of action for future generations.

"arrogantly tires to fix it" applies to the rest of the world / "acknowledge the mess and deal with it" applies domestically, as in our own policies and the breakdown of our political system and the corrupt government it has produced.

I was speaking in philosophical terms and not of a specific person or politician. I was just trying to imply that many mindless patriots subconsciously define patriotism as unwaivering support for U.S. tactics and policies abroad combined with total censorship and scorn of criticism of the policies at home in the U.S.

Furthermore, they usually, as evidenced by this thread, mock citizens who question the American agenda and label them as being unpatriotic.

Originally posted by traderonwallst
reply to post by kosmicjack

 

...BUT be warned, I also believe it is my free speech to walk up the person that lights that flag on fire and punch him repeatedly in the face. If somebody really want to impress someone and make a real statement, they should first wrap themselves up in that flag and then light up. Now that is Patriotism, dying for one's nation. ... No one shall take away from me, or anyone I love, the rights I was born with, as a citizen of the United States of America!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you should seriously consider loosening your tie. I really thought that you Wall St. types were made of sterner stuff than to be "wounded" simply by observing an act of free speech and non-violent dissent. But, if you really feel the need to punch someone, maybe you should have a drink too.

I find it ironic how zealously you squawk about protecting your own rights but are so quick to scorn mine. Not unlike the U.S. when it comes to international diplomacy. Something to think about. Maybe that's why you are so defensive about American policy. It's just like you - narrow-minded.

reply to post by kosmicjack


I believe it was you first that was squawking my reaction would be infringing upon yours. I am just stating that our opinions obviously differ. I would fight and die for my flag. You obviously would not. If that means I am over zealous, then so be it. I am not about to turn the other cheek and give peace a chance. John Lennon sang about that, and it just got him shot in the back!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by kosmicjack
I find it ironic how zealously you squawk about protecting your own rights but are so quick to scorn mine.

Yes this double standard is always quite prevelant among those who afflicted with the disease.

I have the right to burn the flag. I chose not to but to strike someone that does then goes beyond Mindless Patriotism and moves one into a whole different world: A convicted felon. Rest assured that that person would get due process under our laws (at least for now who knows how those afflicted would seek to change the basic tennants of our constitution as they ALREADY have) AND get a jury of thier peers.

Originally posted by traderonwallst
reply to post by kosmicjack

 

I too agree it is protected by free speach. BUT, be warned, I also believe it is my free speech to walk up the person that lights that flag on fire and punch him repeatedly in the face.

So you think it is okay to use violence against someone because they do something you don't like?

How about a group of people that beat a woman because she goes out in public without covering her face? They feel justified too.

Do you think you are any different than them?

I am not sure why the attacks of 9-11 did not solidify the people of the US

For the most part, they did, and most of the world with us for that matter. But when this administration used the attacks to further a political agenda, shred the Constitution, and invade a country that had nothing to do with the attacks nor posed a threat to our security, they ruined it.



[edit on 9-10-2007 by aye aye]

Originally posted by traderonwallst
reply to post by kosmicjack

 

I would fight and die for my flag. You obviously would not.

You're right. I would not fight for a flag. It is only a hollow symbol. I would fight for a principle that runs much deeper - my constitutional rights, yours too. My original quote:

... I think flag burning is a form of free speech - a form of dissent - and therefore, ultimately, an act of patriotism. Would I burn the flag? Personally, as of now, no - but I might - and I would go to the mat to defend your right to express yourself by doing so.

However, you would prefer to silence this form of free speech with a punch in the face. Who is more patriotic? Oh, and I wasn't sqauwking about my rights - I was drawing a line. A legal one.



[edit on 10/10/2007 by kosmicjack]

Good thread, not really much to add from me.

Op. Ajax, It feel this way about patriotism.

My issue with patriotism is that it looks past humanity and goes for something that's not really that important in the grand scheme of things. It's a way to divert attention away from human issues and toward created ones...

Originally posted by traderonwallst
I would fight and die for my flag. You obviously would not. If that means I am over zealous, then so be it. I am not about to turn the other cheek and give peace a chance. John Lennon sang about that, and it just got him shot in the back!!!!!!!!!

Hmmm. This is one of those common things that gets thrown out esp. when it comes to the flag. As someone just mentioned the flag is but a symbol. Which is more important? The Flag, or the ideas, the principals, the thoughts behind It?

My friend THAT is where our power lies, not in a symbol. You cannot have a flag without those very pricipals that founded our nation.

Originally posted by traderonwallst
I would fight and die for my flag. You obviously would not.

Its funny, none of the people posting on this thread as far as I can tell have never indicated an opinion about that subject. This is yet another classic tactic of the MP IMHO

I have yet to see anybody indicate they would not be willing to defend the principals that our country was founded upon, the ideals, the embodyment of freedom, our fundemental way of life that is summed up in our Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

EACH AND EVERY TIME WE EXERSIZE THE RIGHT CONTAINED IN THOSE SACRED DOCUMENTS WE DEFEND THEM. PERIOD

Sorry for the yelling

Originally posted by traderonwallst
I would fight and die for my flag. You obviously would not.

Interesting concept. You'd die for a piece of cloth?

Or do you mean you'd die for what that piece of cloth purports to represent?

If its the latter, can you honestly say that means the same as it did when the piece of cloth came into being?

Bear in mind that we're living in a world now where the US openly attacks other countries it disagrees with, both politically and militarily, not because they pose a direct threat, but because it is in the US "interest" to do so.

Fighting for the flag! Is that what you consider patriotism, fighting for a symbol? Symbols only have the meanings we assign to them, nothing more, nothing less.

I have already served; (fortunately not in wartime) and I served my country, not its flag or the great seal or the dollar. In my opinion anyway.

Besides that, the vast majority of those who enlist are motivated by the need for a job, or money for an education, as opposed to patriotism. Why do you think they offer all those cash incentives to enlist? There are of course exceptions.

There are far more ways of honoring and serving your country besides fighting. Fighting is nothing, anyone can fight. All violence is nothing more than a failure of reason and diplomacy.

You can serve in the election process or help monitor them to keep the parties honest.

You can serve by voting damn it. I do religiously even though I am throughly disgusted by the choices that we are offered.

You can serve by helping to clean up our land and water or by reporting polluters.

You can serve by volunteering in any number of ways.

I have never been able to understand the mentality that equates serving in the military and fighting with patriotism. That is just a small part of the picture.







[edit on 10-10-2007 by grover]

reply to post by Operation AJAX


I will take a jury of MY peers anytime over watching my flag burn in front of me. It was one thing to watch the towers burn and crumble at my feet, and it changed my life for ever. Not watching anything burn anymore without trying to do something.

reply to post by aye aye


Thats whats so great about living in the United States silly. Here I wil lnever have to face watching a bunch of lunatics beating a woman because she is dressed inappropriately. Keep your attempts to undermine my beliefs relevant. And remember, they are my beliefs, just becuase you don't agree, does not mean I do not have a right to them!

reply to post by Operation AJAX


You could not be more wrong. Our flag represents those beliefs. Atleast to an American like myself it does. I am sorry you can't see that. Lets just agree to disagree on this one.

Ok trader, decide my fate.

1- I burn flag.
2- You punch me in the face
3- I then beat you to death(in self defense, mind you)

What should the "jury of peers" determine?

reply to post by neformore


purports to represent?????? Tell that to the millions of Americans throughout history that gave their life to defend a hill where that flag stood. Tell that to the millions of Americans who fought bravely under that flag. To some people, like myself, the flag is not a piece of cloth and I am offended that others feel that way. The flag represents the freedom of all Americans. Freedoms that were given to you simply because you were born here (or moved here legally and became citizens). These freedoms were afforded to you because people felt an obligation to defend and in some cases attack an enemy to gaurantee those freedoms. If you are an American you do a dis-service to your fellow Americans fighting around the world to protect your freedoms at home. If you are not an American, I understand your disdain for us. Please do not refer to my flag as a simple peice of cloth...........