Theists, what would convince you to stop believing?

Originally posted by Ersatz
As far as I am concerned there are so many things God can do to provide conclusive, lasting proof that he existed and was supernatural.

For starters about a 1000 unansered prayers. Perhaps everything one might pray for might not be what one really needs?


One question I have is- Who is responsible for deciding where one is born on this earth? Why one will be born with every concievable convenience imaginable while another is born on the dirt with no bed to lie on and in a land that doesn't produce vegetation to eat, which means no animals, no rain. Nothing but a life of misery and heartache and starvation?

Originally posted by runetang
If it was scientifically proven that there was no Afterlife, by an independently funded researcher, who's genuinely unbiased in either respect and was a genius in his own right, it would affect me and my belief big time.

So if we all perma-fade out when we die, and theres no other side, no such thing as ghosts, no such thing as a spirit or soul, no such thing as a God, no such thing as ANYTHING.. well then I'd no longer believe.

Why do you not turn this on its head instead and say: "I will NOT believe UNTIL it has been scientifically proven that an Afterlife DO exist.

This would be an honest position; however you seem to just assume it does exist instead. Do you also believe in pink invisible unicorns just because there has not been provided any scientific evidence that they do not exist?

Do you agree that your stance is a completely irrational one?

The reason I dont flip it is because that is God's test for mankind and one of the main reasons he instilled our beings with freewill, independently, no other species has it. Theres a reason for that and it does make us unique among all creations. This is indisputable even to the highest scientist we can all agree.

So when one ponders the question of why? in the case of freewill, why its there, why we have it, why ONLY we have, why it makes us unique, and the very many doors it opens for us both good and bad, you can come to a number of conclusions.

When considering theres a reasoning behind it, and it enables us to commit acts of good and evil that would otherwise be unavailable for us to perform much less label good or evil, you have to wonder about the implications. Certainly this good and evil, and the ability to perform it uniquely as humans has to be connected in some way to the very reason the freewill exists and we have it and we alone. With me still? So, one (me) comes to the apparent conclusion that since God is intangible physically if God indeed exists in some form somewhere (or even used to exist for the "god is dead" types), we as physical, human beings cannot comprehend the majority of that which is God. To even look upon a form of God would burn the very eyes out of their sockets the sheer brightness of pure it light would be. And so man has to find other ways to attain a closeness to God since man is dual by nature; physical but also able to be spiritual if open to the idea, gains the knowledge, and practices accordingly to do so. And since good and evil are dual by nature, and free will enables us to dually choose yes or no to any given situation, it all comes back to this for me.

And what "this" is, is faith. Faith is the concept of believing without the evidence because the evidence cannot be comprehended by human beings. Since it cannot be comprehended in a purely physical, scientific way and thus "proven", categorized, researched and anatomically studied, God knows that God cannot be proven true in the physical world alone. In this is God's wisdom. Since we and we only have the freewill, and since we are supposed to be God's special creation, all of this comes down to us being instilled with the option of choosing "yes" or "no" to God based on each person's own observation of it, researching of it, thinking on it, and experiences from it; this is the freewill we and we alone have. God wants us to be able to not believe that God exists. If we couldn't do that, there would be much less point to sin now would there. And without sin, we'd all be back in the garden frolicking naked

Furthermore, if God was scientifically proven true in the physical world, this freewill would be severely hampered, and 99% of the sane and logical people of the world would automatically worship God. God does not want this, God wants to be noticed and loved for what God does for us and around us in our lives, and respected and worshipped accordingly, which I assume makes God feel that God has done properly by creating us as custodians of the planet. But thats just my opinion, that God has emotions.

Anyway, I'll believe until proven otherwise, but I'll always be open to the concept of this happening and the life change it would cause on me. But until that day, I will always love my eternal Father, who existed before even Christ the Messiah.

I guess when the resurrection occurs, people who did not believe in a God will feel pretty silly. But they should fear not if this were to occur despite their belief otherwise; if they live good lives, and do good deeds, their souls that they knew not existed will not perish or be punished. For each will be judged according to his works, not his words or what Church he went to.

Peace brothers.

[edit on 10/12/2007 by runetang]

Originally posted by runetang
The reason I dont flip it is because that is God's test for mankind and one of the main reasons he instilled our beings with freewill, independently, no other species has it. Theres a reason for that and it does make us unique among all creations. This is indisputable even to the highest scientist we can all agree.

So when one ponders the question of why? in the case of freewill, why its there, why we have it, why ONLY we have, why it makes us unique, and the very many doors it opens for us both good and bad, you can come to a number of conclusions.

Jesus Christ runetang! That post was literally painful to read.

You must be one of the most arrogant people I’ve ever communicated with.

Are you really saying that a dog does NOT have free will? Does other animals than us not have free will? What do you base this conclusion on? What are you on about? How do you conclude that only we humans have free will?

Also, how exactly do you know what God wants, really?

Are you familiar with the term circular reasoning?

Take it one step further Silent, do humans have freewill? That was the big question in philosophy this past week and I got rather heated over it. I agree with his point ultimately when he said "what makes human being so much different than the rest of the universe. We are made up of the same stuff, in the same world, why are we different." and the truth is we aren't special in reality. There is no logical arguement or proof that we are special, but rather we just believe that.

My personal belief is that we aren't special, but everything is up to chance. That 99 out of 100 times if you throw that ball at a certain spot in the wall, it will bounce back into your hand. But there is one time where it won't bounce into your hand and will bounce differently. Even that isn't proof that freewill exists though.

The question isn't "does free will exist, or is it determind?" but "How does this question effect the way I live?". What I mean is this. Does the idea that free will exists change the way you act tomorrow? If so, why would it? If not, which I believe to be the best answer, then why ruminate over the question? If the question has no bearing on your existance or the way you live it, its not really important, is it? Regardless of the answer, you still wake up tomorrow and have to figure out what to do next. As a result, many questions are a result of useless knowledge. Things that you want to know, but have no reason to search for. We ask all these questions that really don't have any meaningful point.

Now I take that question one step, one mile, further. Would you live your life differently if god didn't exist? That is the real question. Not "what would convince you a god doesn't exist" but rather how would you change if you did find god doesn't exist? Whatever the answer may be, you have to figure out why that is. My point being, if you would change, then you aren't being yourself. You are doing something that doesn't fit who you are on the inside. If there is a god, he made you a certain way for a certain reason, and why would you fight against that?

If there were 100% proof to be a god, would you change the way you live? I have spent some years searching for the person in me that could say no to both those questions. That I wouldn't change if there was a god, and I wouldn't change if there wasn't. I am not an athiest, I am not a christian, and I am probably a bit different than most agnostics. What I am is the idea that our individuality is key to our existance. That being yourself should make you feel like you are doing the right thing regardless of what the answer to the universes questions may be.

The question of where the universe came from, if there is a god, why humans exist, its all irrelevent to us in reality. The answers to those questions shouldn't effect the way we live. If they do, then we are doing something wrong. You cannot base your existance and how you use it on something elses possible existance. You must be independent of the world in a mental sense to find out who you are as a person. The only question that you should be asking yourself is "What do I do next?" That is really the most insightful question you can ask. It has the most direct bearing on how you will live this life.

Once you figure that out, well than there isn't much left you need to keep asking. From there, enjoy the world which you are getting to experience. Appriciate what you have become, and what you are living through.

Well,... hmmm.... to be honest, I don't know. I can tell you this, there is not a theory that I have ever come across that has ever led me to think that there was no God. So, I don't think that there is much science could ever do to ever convince me that there is not a God.

That's a good question really. And I am giving an honest answer when I say that I am not sure that anyone or anything could ever sway my belief in the existence of a Deity. I had an experience once in my life, that pretty much removed all doubt from my mind. Yes, I used to doubt God's existence, not anymore.

[edit on 15-10-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by Ersatz
As far as I am concerned there are so many things God can do to provide conclusive, lasting proof that he existed and was supernatural.

He's done everything needed for people to see him.

Romans 1:20-21
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

I take quite a few walks at night and looking up at the big dipper I ask him how can people be moron enough to believe that just flew into place, or "birthed" itself somehow. But, there was a blind moment in my life where I gave it no thought too, so I can't even condemn that.

To know GOD is his work in you. No man can save himself, it's GOD who does the saving. Understand your sin, turn from it and seek him. As John the baptist said, bear fruit fit for repentance. He'll work with you.

Originally posted by Ersatz
Carve a giant canyon into the moon which says "GOD" in cursive

His name (Jehovah יהוה) is written (modern hebrew mind you) at Bethel (beyth (house) [of] el (GOD)). Where Jacob saw the ladder.

Originally posted by Ersatz
What would it take to convince you that God doesn't exist?

More than it would take to convince me that my earthly father doesn't exist.

reply to post by jon1


“In all honesty, nothing could stop me believing that God is real.”

So even though you’ve never met god, you still believe, huh, now if that’s not blind faith, I don’t know what is….


“I have seen to many things that cannot be explained any other way.”

Please explain these events, I’m sure we atheists can bring you a logical deduction on those godly influences….the very fact that you say that you’ve seen things only god could’ve done, than god has stepped into your life, (special you) and in doing so, is taking away your free will.

“I suppose i could stop praying and going to church but i would still know that he is there.”

If you could stop going to church, and still know god was there, then why don’t you? if you know god will (help) you, no matter what, then why do you need to go to church?

“So many Christians experience God in so many ways that they would need some concrete proof of some sort to say that what they are experiencing was not from God.”

And so many atheists would need some concrete proof of some sort to say what they are experiencing is god.

“Saying it may be this or it may be that will not sway anyone from their faith.”

Say…you meet someone at a bar, festival, what ever, and after a while you start talking about family, and you both have a long lost sibling whom after researching you both find out your related. Is that just a coincidence or a marvel of god?


“A God experience is very powerful and takes peoples faith to new heights.”

I would love to read some of these wondrous god experiences please……thank you….

“A God experience is very powerful and takes peoples faith to new heights.”

So are drugs?

[edit on 19-10-2007 by AncientVoid]

Nothingness

If there was nothing after we die....

The belief in the continuance of our existance (on a different plain) has sustained my acceptance of 'more'.

I would bet my last bottom dollar, that there is NOT one human being alive, that would want to 'continue' after this life's cycle.

Wouldn't YOU want to continue on?

reply to post by TheDuckster


Duckster, if there was nothingness, then you wouldn't be aware, so, really, you still wouldn't change your mind. I personally do not think that there is anything that would make me not believe. Like I said previously, there certainly isn't any theory that will ever make me not believe that there is a deity.

reply to post by Ersatz


This is a really good question and I'm enjoying reading all the responses. Here are my own thoughts:

First, physicists/astrophysicists would have to prove one of two things: that something can, scientifically speaking, come from nothing (namely the universe), or that the universe truly has existed infinitely. So far, no one has ever come anywhere near proving the first, and current astrophysical theories strongly point to the universe having had a beginning, or a point at which it came into existence (some 15 billion years ago). Moreover, I am pretty confident that actual infinites do not exist in our universe (things that are both beginning-less and endless, not just endless).

If neither of these things are ever proven, I would at least have to hear a much more plausible alternative for the existence of the universe than the multiverse and oscillating universe hypotheses, which strike me as weak at best. Those who hold staunchly to the worldview of scientism are so concerned with there being tons of evidence for any belief they have, yet there is not the single, slightest shred of evidence for there being a multi-universe or an oscillating universe.

I would also have to hear a very compelling critique of the fine-tuning argument, which so far I have not heard. It seems really unlikely to me that every one of the initial physical constants that were present at the time of the big bang just happened to be so finely tuned that they were just right for creating a universe that could support life, unless there was someone who purposely set it that way.

These are only a few things that would give me serious doubts about there being a God. While I do think that are some really good arguments for atheism, ultimately I think theism is a lot more likely to be true.

Ersatz said,

Does it not bother you that if you were born in China or Lebanon you would believe in a completely different God?

Do you honestly think there are no christians in Lebanon

or China?

These countries cannot stop God, even Saudi Arabia
and North Korea imprison christians, but, still people are converted!!!!

There is NO Torture that would make me recant my faith, by God's grace.
So many christians went to their deaths in Rome, Germany, England, China, Spain and France, singing praises to God!

God gives abundant help in times of trouble!

Now, to talk ME out of my faith!
How old are you? 19?

I've been around and learned TOO much about life and Jeshua to ever be shaken! I love Jesus!

Also Wisesheep, That's a GREAT satalite photo!!!!!

[edit on 24-11-2007 by Clearskies]

I still don't see how anybody would be able to change anyone elses beliefs. It comes from within. When you find the answers you need, that is when you will change your view. Nothing anyone else can do is going to change it. It may provoke new thoughts, which may lead to change, but that is it.

I, personally, have no reason to believe or disbelieve in god. I have no motivating factor to jump to a conclusion. Anyone who does, I believe, is doing so in bad faith.

Logic and the thought process of a god makes me disbelieve, while the "coincidence" idea makes me wonder if there is such a thing. The idea that so many things can be a coincidence may be just to complex for my mind to grasp. We side toward this idea "without that event things wouldn't have happened like they did" when in reality, its "the reason it happened that way is because of that event." If that event didnt happen, we wouldn't be experiencing what we are now, and we never would have realized it was a possibility. The idea that everything is not a coincidence is a very weak argument, but the only reasonable one I have been able to find for god.

Originally posted by Clearskies



There is NO Torture that would make me recant my faith, by God's grace.
So many christians went to their deaths in Rome, Germany, England, China, Spain and France, singing praises to God!

God gives abundant help in times of trouble!

Now, to talk ME out of my faith!

Ha! That's funny!
Good one

What proof do I need that Zeus doesn't exist?
Many people in ancient Greece believed Zeus was real.
S'funny, when I used to believe (or was I self delusional?) in God, and that the account of Jesus in the NT was factual, I scoffed and found it funny that those mis-informed ancient peoples could believe in elephant people with multiple arms, and man-gods like Hercules, Zeus and Thor.

Yep, I thought how ignorant of those people, I know better than that!

My myth was more real than those myth's, good thing it's the most popular religion!


[edit on 24-11-2007 by Toadmund]

From the answers given so far, it seems that believers answer to the question is - NOTHING. I believe by faith and you can go self-copulate with any evidence you think you may have, or anything you don't like about the world that you think god would correct if he existed.

We have to recognize that any discussions about the existence of a god are less than meaningless. We all have our own beliefs, but ff there is no possible way of proving or disproving a proposition (such as 'god exists') we are wasting our time and breath to even bother arguing about it.

All of my scientific evidence and observations have convinced me that the existence of a god is exceedingly unlikely, and the concept itself is silly. However, to another person, especially one not trained scientifically, his/her observations convince him/her equally that a god must exist and rejection of the concept is silly.

All I can recommend is, if you are still in school, take as many science courses as you can, work really hard to understand everything that is being taught and triy to get A's in them. You may still believe in a god, but this will give you a deeper understanding of your beliefs, the real world, and how non-believers think.

Occam

I just realized that my earlier recommendation to take science courses isn't the kind of thing a strong Christian would bother doing. So, I have another recommendation:

If you are in school or if you are near a decent university or college, check to see if they have any upper division courses in their theology department on the origins of the bible. Take one or two of them so you really understand the bible rather than just taking your minister's word for everything. It may not shake your faith, but you will much more educated and able to discuss religion effectively.

Occam

Oh, Come Now...

What would be the fun in that?

It would just take away from your awakening and experience of who You are! Leaving the process for more to be desired. And then we would just have to start all over again.

No more restarts, Okay?

People are ready to go now...

love always

And there came a day when God no longer was striving to be Love, He became Love. In one moment and in one decision, and in one last promise, and then creation began, born from Love.

And, there is no possible way to deny God. You can try, for eternities if you like, however you will remain in a state that is less than to be desired for it goes against your very nature, which is going against God, which in turn creates all the negative aspects you experience.

And vice versa, when there is acceptance there is peace, and love, and growth begins. And it is where you will find you, your personal happiness, where you are most comfortable and at peace.

Love

Build a time machine. But I'd still believe. Faith is a one way road that only goes to believing. Sure it shifts amonsts populations(today China yesterday Europe, etc) but it only goes up. I'm afraid that faith is indestructible.