We could just give the insurgent Ospreys.

That'll solve the problem and we can go home.

My concern is that while the bugs have been worked out, how is it going to fair when hit by an RPG? or other type of weapon. In theory its it sounds awesum, but it seems too delecate to be used as an assult vehicle, but rather a behind the lines animal

The Air Force Special Operations Command will be fielding CV-22's real soon and they seem to be putting a lot of trust into these birds.

They're good replacements for the large PaveLows in certain arenas. The CV-22 may not replace it in heavy-lifting, but right now the CV-22 is the best option for Special Forces insertions and that seems to be the best purpose for it.

I'm not too sure how well it would fair as an assault ship or gunship.

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by FredT
My concern is that while the bugs have been worked out, how is it going to fair when hit by an RPG?.....

Maybe they are going to put a cage around them like the Stryker!!

Seriously, I heard they ain't all that good for SOF. Seems they like to leave a pretty big burn pattern on the ground. That will defeat the purpose of any sort of covert infil.

I heard the exact opposite (from my books).

Burn pattern? I can't imagine the CV-22 being any worse for infiltration than the Pave Lows.

Shattered OUT...

What I had heard about "burn pattern" was just that, it burned the ground. I think the Marines were doing some demo for Congress and whatnot and they managed to set fire to the grass. MH-53's aren't known to do that.

Really? Absolutely the first I am hearing about an powered-lift rotorcraft doing anything called a "burn pattern". In the research I've done, that's never come up, how exactly is "burn patter" a problem and how is it created?

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by FredT

My concern is that while the bugs have been worked out, how is it going to fair when hit by an RPG? or other type of weapon. In theory its it sounds awesum, but it seems too delecate to be used as an assult vehicle, but rather a behind the lines animal

I agree wtih you FredT. And I wish the best of luck to all the guys in that program, pilots and support personnel.

But my opinion is that it is the wrong techonology for the wrong war in the wrong place. It is a huge and delicate target. But, again, I hope for the best for all those guys.

Originally posted by FredT
...how is it going to fair when hit by an RPG? or other type of weapon.

Like any other large rotary AC? This seems to me to be an unfair and illogical question. Name any other large helicopter that can take RPG or MANPAD fire without care? In fact I think the V-22 will be able to absorb small arms and unguided RPG fire better than most helicopters due to it’s size and design. Sure if any of the rotors are hit, it will go down, but so will anything else flying. At least it is not reliant on the cumbersome tail-rotor configuration.

Originally posted by FredT
...but it seems too delecate to be used as an assult vehicle...

Not really, I think it will be better are taking fire than our legacy large choppers and it will be able to offer more capability in terms of offensive weaponry and defensive ability.

As I said. the concept is not new. the Technology to power it is.

The Marine pilots who fly the Osprey seem to be fairly confident in the aircraft. They've put a lot of flight hours in testing them, and feel like they're operating a safe aircraft. There have been many other aircraft with far worse safety records when first coming into service by the way.
As for their utility, their speed and relative silence while in flight compared to helicopters, gives them a huge advantage with regards to the element of surprise. It allows for quicker reaction times to intel, or for evacuation purposes of injured Marines too.

As has been stated above, the Osprey is no more vulnerable than a helicopter in vertical mode (and less so in cruise mode due to its greater speed), in respect to small arms and shoulder fired missiles.

It is my understanding that the biggest problem to fielding the aircraft has been a software issue concerning the rotor control system when aircraft are in close proximity, for instance on the deck of a ship, and there is asymmetric or uneven downwash from other Ospreys nearby.

Certainly, with the engines vertical for VTOL the engine exhausts are in proximity to and pointing at the ground so there is a possible burn problem. However, when operating from land (and especially in a dusty situation, as opposed to a demo for some big-wig), I would imagine that it would be standard practice to have the rotors tilted forward to achieve a rolling STOL take off - if only in consideration of visibility and dust ingestion.

While some may see the Osprey as a helicopter, in reality it is a combination of the roles of tactical transports such as the DHC Caribou and Buffalo (ironically the span across the rotors is just about the same as the span of a Caribou) with the VTOL capabilities of a heavy lift helo. While the Caribou and Buffalo have much greater range than a helo, they are not much faster than a Chinook due to the design considerations to meet their STOL requirements. That is, those aircraft must use slow speed wing sections to achieve STOL, whereas the Osprey can have a medium speed wing and achieve VSTOL as a helicopter.

Really, the only factor that has held up introduction of the Osprey into service has been the software required to control the two rotors for the very different situations of vertical and horizontal flight. Basically, in forward flight the rotor acts as a propeller with all the airflow coming from straight ahead, but in the vertical mode (and especially during the transition) the airflow is generally across the plane of the rotor and must be controlled in a similar fashion to a helicopter's rotor (ie:- tilting the effective plane of the blades and making allowance for advancing and retreating blades and the unequal lift that they produce). By comparison the software problem is far less complex for a jet powered vectored thrust aircraft. Equally, the use of a single rotor (or separate lift and propulsion 'rotors') would simplify the software problem greatly, but each of those solutions has negative factors associated with it in the intended role.

I'm rather betting that the designers would loved to have designed the Osprey to have been flown with two hand controllers, one for each rotor - that way they wouldn't have had to try to make a computer make all the rotor adjustments for stable flight from a single stick. However, there would be a great resistance to such a control system - not only would the pilot not have time to scratch his nose (or make any other adjustment to the systems), he wouldn't have a hand left to do it with!

The Winged Wombat

I still have yet to see anything noted on "burn pattern".

I can't seem to find anything on it with rotary aircraft.

Shattered OUT...

Interesting stuff, Canada.

Also it's interesting scanning those figures. It reminds me that quoted figures can be quite deceiving. For instance it is vivid within my memory (personal experience) that the max speed quoted on the Caribou is the never exceed speed (VNE - 208 knots) and is not something that the pilot would encounter in normal operations. Cruise for a Caribou is more like 140 knots - yep 5 knots slower than a DC-3! (We used to say that we could actually catch and pass another twin engined aircraft - the Britten-Norman Islander! - but. as you can imagine, it wasn't much of a bragging point!)

Equally, if I remember correctly, the Chinook (built around a similar size and weight load to the Caribou) cannot carry full fuel at max load weight - unlike the Caribou - and therefore in practice has a far shorter range.

The matter of burn pattern is based upon the fact that the turboprop exhausts are pointed at the ground when the engines are pointed skywards for VTO - a situation that a helicopter does not encounter. While the rotor downwash must cool the area affected, I can imagine that in some circumstances (unlikely to be encountered in normal operations) there could be a problem. I certainly wouldn't want to lie under the jet exhausts while the Osprey was doing a VTO.

The quoted example of a possible 'burn' above seems to me to be something encountered when giving a demonstration of VTO from an 'unsuitable' surface.

The Winged Wombat


[edit on 11/10/07 by The Winged Wombat]