ATS.MIX: 26 – What I Believe - Part 1

ATS MIX:

Show 26 – What I Believe - Part 1

The ATS MIX Team investigates what people believe or perhaps what they don't believe in. This is PART 1 of several episodes on Dave and Johnny’s quest to find out how the AboveTopSecret Membership really feels when it comes to a belief system or spirituality as a whole.





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[edit on 1/15/2008 by Dave Rabbit]

Now i just BEG that this post is not taken the wrong way. I hope people know me better than to take this the wrong way.

So without further delays

I find it such an easy way out to say the universe has always been. Well, nope. It hasn't always been. Whether it is looked at scientifically or spiritually, it hasn't always been. I don't think/feel atheists actually have anything look forward to because they have nothing to believe in. I do NOT mean that in a bad way at all. It is what i have picked up from the many threads and the interview.

It is interesting but it must be such a difficult existence. I also seem to find atheists taking the bible as fact and absolute and literal. And this is where we start finding them looking for discrepancies. NOW, IF the bible was written by one person i could almost agree BUT since the bible is made up of 66 books over 1200 years there will be inconsistencies considering the number of writers.

If we all went to watch a movie and we sat a week later and told someone about the movie, NO one would have the same story

It isn't rocket science to understand that. Is it?

And as with madness saying he doesn't mind what faith his kids ever decide on (when he has them) but he also mentioned he would "discuss" it with them - because he is very argumentative. So it would be safe to assume that he would try and convert them to atheism no matter what they decided to choose - in a forceful sort of way? hmmmmmmm... ok then.

AH and MajorMalfunction, Santa Clause is NOT pretend . So that would be a lie to your kids. Regardless whether you are Christian or Atheist, St Nicholas is VERY real. Ok he isn't alive anymore BUT he was very very real. He was a Christian but he didn't only help Christians!

PLEASE read

Santa Claus begins with Nicholas, who was born during the third century in the village of Patara. At the time the area was Greek and is now on the southern coast of Turkey. His wealthy parents, who raised him to be a devout Christian, died in an epidemic while Nicholas was still young. Obeying Jesus' words to "sell what you own and give the money to the poor," Nicholas used his whole inheritance to assist the needy, the sick, and the suffering. He dedicated his life to serving God and was made Bishop of Myra while still a young man. Bishop Nicholas became known throughout the land for his generosity to the those in need, his love for children, and his concern for sailors and ships.

So it is really a celebration of his doings

So, you can all tell your kids that caring, sharing and giving is very real, and something good, as was St Nicholas.

[edit on 5/10/2007 by shearder]

There was never a guy that went all over the world going down chimneys for all the Western kids in one night. So Santa as this culture knows it is not real. And I'm not about to lie to my kids about such a thing. I'm aware of who St. Nicholas was. And as a "saint" I don't believe in him either. He was just a guy. I don't believe in "saints." Ergo, there's no need to pollute my kids minds with it.

See, lying to kids is lying. There is no guy that comes down the chimney and leaves presents. As a child, I was devastated when I figured out my mother had lied to me about it. I think it's a bad thing to do that to a kid. Anyway, why should some guy that's been dead for hundreds of years get credit for my gifts?

Also, in regards to what you told MIMS, all kids are born atheist, having absolutely no idea there is any such concept as god, let alone believe in one. So if our children come to us and say they've become Christian or any other faith, and without our knowledge, that means somebody ELSE has converted them to their faith without my knowledge or consent. And that is unacceptable. Of course it's going to be discussed.

What would you do if your kids came home and said they'd become Yoruba? I'm sure there would at least be a discussion about it, and why you might not be happy about such a move on their parts.

But thank you for listening. Now I need to listen to it myself -- just got up and popped in here to see the show was up and you beat me to the first post.

Whew! I got a chance to listen to the show before I have to get my daughter ready for school. It was great fun, Dave and Johnny, and I really appreciate your giving MIMS and I a chance to represent for the non-believers.

I'll be back later on today to answer any other questions anyone may have ... but it's off to kindergarten now.

Oh, come now! Is nobody interested in hearing what MIMS and I sound like?

Afraid our voices will suck your souls out of your ears?

I was just about to start this then I noticed shearder's post mentioning Santa. It's 6 pm here and my daughter and her two friends are running about the place so I'll get to it later. If I have any questions MM I'll be sure to ask.

Well done you two, its nice to put at least a voice to you both, just need some pic's now.
At least I can see a little more of where you are coming from with your views on things.
jon

Thank you jon1. I'm glad you enjoyed the show.

There's a pic of me with John Lear at the Bay Area UFO Expo in this thread.

MIMS, on the other hand ... that I cannot answer.

MajorMalfuntion, go you.Great ATS Mix, you to MIMS. Both done good.

ProTo

I just finished listening to the show and all I can say is that I really enjoyed it and that Madness and Major were fine great representatives of Athiests.
Cheers xpert11.

Originally posted by jon1
Well done you two, its nice to put at least a voice to you both, just need some pic's now.

well, i link to myspace from my ATS profile, i've got a few pics of me over there

At least I can see a little more of where you are coming from with your views on things.
jon

it's good, was afraid i wouldn't come off as coherent

Originally posted by xpert11
I just finished listening to the show and all I can say is that I really enjoyed it and that Madness and Major were fine great representatives of Athiests.
Cheers xpert11.

oh shucks, you're going to make me blush over here.

So we didn't come across as gibbering soulless madpeople?

Hmmmm ... maybe I wasn't trying hard enough.

Thanks for listening, everyone!

Being a good Christian I'm not going to answer that.
As a matter of fact, you came across very well. (Boy, that hurt)

Only the brave ...

Only the brave have listened.

Does no one have a question for MIMS or me? Or do we answer them well enough on the forums?

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
So we didn't come across as gibbering soulless madpeople?

Hmmmm ... maybe I wasn't trying hard enough.

Thanks for listening, everyone!

LOL nope, you didn't come across as soulless madpeople

It was very interesting to listen to both of you. I do understand where you are both coming from - though i don't agree - it gave more of an idea as to why you believe what you do and I respect your beliefs.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
There was never a guy that went all over the world going down chimneys for all the Western kids in one night. So Santa as this culture knows it is not real.

True. I do not disagree - to a point. We can agree to disagree here because it isn't all about Santa - i just had to add the facts. We can split hairs all day and never agree.

However, though he did not climb down chimneys he threw stuff through windows etc. It is really a celebration of a Saint that did good. Ok also the Birth of Christ but that is for another thread.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
And as a "saint" I don't believe in him either. He was just a guy. I don't believe in "saints." Ergo, there's no need to pollute my kids minds with it.

I don't believe you could pollute your kids minds about a guy that helped people less fortunate than himself - even ignoring the fact he was a Saint. Even if you just called him Nicholas he still helped people. That's a lesson for life not religion.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Anyway, why should some guy that's been dead for hundreds of years get credit for my gifts?

How you deal with Christmas is a personal thing. If your kids know the presents are from you then that's great - i have no hassle with that and i doubt any other Christians would either - but it is about sharing and giving - i.e. to your kids; to the poor etc. If you forget about the Christianity part of things it is a humane action not a Christian one

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Also, in regards to what you told MIMS, all kids are born atheist, having absolutely no idea there is any such concept as god, let alone believe in one.

Touche. And that's where we come in and teach them to believe what we believe that there IS or IS NOT a God. And I won't debate who is right and who is wrong.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
So if our children come to us and say they've become Christian or any other faith, and without our knowledge, that means somebody ELSE has converted them to their faith without my knowledge or consent. And that is unacceptable. Of course it's going to be discussed.

And if the discussion is to tell them that they are wrong and they feel they are right you will be forcing your beliefs on them which is also wrong. Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion and beliefs. I would be with you if you didn't say it was "unacceptable" and i would agree that you would need to discuss it as a concerned parent but - everyone needs to decide for themselves at one point and that's how it is.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
What would you do if your kids came home and said they'd become Yoruba? I'm sure there would at least be a discussion about it, and why you might not be happy about such a move on their parts.

Again, i agree. A discussion would be on the cards. But I would never force my beliefs on them. However, there are exceptions when it comes to cults etc. But that, ok ok it's a fine line between what we are discussing, is one situation i would fight for - for obvious reasons - not because of the religion but due to my concerns for his/her safety.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
But thank you for listening. Now I need to listen to it myself -- just got up and popped in here to see the show was up and you beat me to the first post.

hehehe that's cool. You are cool - we just have to agree to disagree and keep it clean
A great interview none the less!

The distinction I'm making is that if my kids came home and told me they'd been converted by someone without my knowing about their being taken to church ahead of time, that would be wrong of whoever did it. They would be forcing their beliefs on my kids without my knowledge or consent. THAT is a problem.

As I said in the show, if my kids want to go seeking when they are old enough, I will take them myself. But nobody else has a right to try to convert my children, not when they are young and in my care. I find that to be creepy, and one step above what pedophiles do. Sneakiness in conversion does not bode well for the religion doing the converting, or at least the person doing the converting.

I would have a problem with that. A big problem. And I would be discussing it with my kids if that were to happen.

Nobody has a right to educate my kids on religion except for me, and them when they're old enough to make up their own minds. In my opinion.

And to me, it's all cults. I think that's the difference between how you see religion and how I see it.

But of course, some cults are much more dangerous than others.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
And to me, it's all cults. I think that's the difference between how you see religion and how I see it.
But of course, some cults are much more dangerous than others.

OK you have your ideas about what a cult is and though you personally believe they are all cults, i have to say that i do not believe they are all cults. A cult is a lot more than a religion - if a religion at all as it only serves the purpose of the person running the cult.

"A cult is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea, or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g., isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgment, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of leaving it, etc.) designed to advance the goals of the group’s leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community."

With the above in mind, I think you can see that, for example, Judaism or even Catholicism couldn't be a cult etc.

But anyways, I respect your views and you as a person.

Nice show all involved, a very dangerous topic to attempt to argue either side, you all did very well and showed that this topic can be debated in a sensible manor.

Major nice job.

Intelligent design is possible.
Spontaneous being is also possible.
Things just have always been is possible.
God as portrayed by any book / mass religion ..no way imho.

I was very disturbed recently whilst going to my childrens school to watch a 'harvest festival' show. at the end the head teacher made all the kids close thier eyes, bow their heads and pray to God , i was quite disturbed by the way our young kids are exposed to these teachings and they are taught as fact! which is not right imho.

i tell my kids that some believe in God (in many different forms) and Some do not, it is something they will have to figure out for themselves when they get older by weighing up all available evidence. my daughter is 5 my son is 3 .(yes very young but they always suprise me in thier capacity to learn complicated concepts)

Regards to Santa, i tell them that santa was based on a man (st nick) who existed a long time ago, but the people that buy them presents are there friends and family that love them very much.

You must all be open to all the possibilities because as you all say there is no way we can prove or disprove anything at this point.

Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrel

You must all be open to all the possibilities because as you all say there is no way we can prove or disprove anything at this point.

Agreed. That's why we have to accept each' viewpoint and not bash. We may all be wrong in one way or another. I live and let live. If we can all agree to that this will be one seriously happy world hehehe

Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrel

You must all be open to all the possibilities because as you all say there is no way we can prove or disprove anything at this point.

the problem with that is that the same applies to things i can make up. carl sagan illustrated this point with "The Dragon In My Garage"

some claims may be untestable, but that doesn't make their probability 50/50