reply to post by NeilDown

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Giving out candy and playing soccer, which a lot of soldiers do over there, is a far cry from all our soldiers is rape and murder. Of course I don't expect you to get it because you have never been there. If you had been there, you wouldn't outout such garbage.

i am going to say one line yes just one line that sums my opinion on the OP's post



Don't Hate The Players......Hate The Game.



The real problem with War is this..

If i was to commit any of these acts whilst in my own country, my government would either

A) kill me (depends where you live)

or

B) Lock me away forever.

But.. if a guy in a suit says its ok.. and sends me to another country to commit these acts they pin a medal on my frikken chest..Hypocrisy at its worst!!!!!!

Soldiers are needed in the world we live in see 'a few good men speech' its true and i shudder to think of the things these people have seen or had to do so that the OP is free to post his opinion. i bet most of them struggle to sleep at night i wonder if the OP has the same problem in the safety of his own home.

[edit on 3/10/07 by Quantum_Squirrel]

You don't have to be there to understand a killer.


The minds of killers need not be close.

I never said anything about rape. You have murdered thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of civilians, that is undeniable. My point which you don't seem to be able to grasp is that playing soccer and handing out sweets is a pretty #ing weak effort after you destroyed that country based on a pack of lies.

[edit on 3-10-2007 by NeilDown]

[edit on 3-10-2007 by NeilDown]

People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. -- George Orwell

I am a proud veteran of the US Army. I believe in the cause of Freedom. I also believe that Freedom is more important than my own life. You like everyone else, are entitled to your own opinion. However, the right to express that opinion is defended by people like me. What makes me giggle the most is the fact that you wouldn't even have the opportunity to express opinions like this freely except for the sacrifices of those people you are showing disrespect. Laughable and pitiful as it may be, you have that right.

Hi piacenza, I wander why you ask those questions?

In my opinion,
We must respect soldiers, because in reality, soldiers risk and lose there lives, or become invalid, physical or mental, mostly in terrible and horrible circumstances what’s called war.
And absolute no one, who hasn’t be on a battlefield can’t imagine how terrible war in fact is.
They do it, because it is their job, and are ordered to do so, normally by their own governments and mostly supported by the majority of their own people, to go and fight, no questions ask.
And therefore they own our respect.

Of course I don’t forget the terrible and horrible suffering of civilians either.

However piacenza, we all know that on the moment I write this, around the world, every day, during wartime as well during peacetime, there happening terrible things who are absolute inhumanely, no question about that.

Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys.
Look on them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death!

- Sun Tzu -


[edit on 3/10/07 by spacevisitor]

[edit on 3/10/07 by spacevisitor]

reply to post by geemony

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I will pray for those soldiers. God Bless them, may they be cared for and be safe.

And thank you for your service, I believe you served with honor and dignity with the goal of doing good for those you hold dear, the American people and the freedom we love.

On one side note, in the movie Jessep was arrested for disobeying orders and perjury.

I'm gonna reply to several points but I ESPECIALLY wanted to start with the above comment. First of all, a little history lesson...

WW2 was started when Hitler who, while he was a CORPORAL in the Austrian army during WW1, was NOT a soldier...he was a POLITICIAN. The German armies invaded Poland to annex it (they'd already gotten large chunks of what would be Czechoslovakia and Austria via the Aunschluss). The invasion of Poland caused France and Britain -- who had mutual defence treaties with Poland -- to declare war on Germany. All of these treaties and whatnot were carried out by POLITICIANS.

If you want to vent your vitriol on a class of humanity, save it for the POLITICIANS.

Next, we'll visit some more history when we look at how the US treated the returning troops from Vietnam. For those of you (and I'm getting the impression that it's MOST of you) that either weren't alive or weren't old enough to remember, returning soldiers from Vietnam, regardless of rank, branch of service, or MOS*, were vilified and spat upon by the sector of the US that was demonstrating against the war. Now mind you, most of these fellows were draftees and didn't have a choice about whether they were going to go to a distant land and do nasty things to the people there.

Over time (remember that nasty history stuff I've been talking about) this "over-reaction" to the returning troops (who really weren't the ones to blame for the failed policies that led to Vietnam in the FIRST place) caused a pendulum swing in public opinion towards the men and women who serve in our Armed Forces. That and the fact that all branches of the Armed Forces are now strictly volunteer.

As for why we should respect them, I think Demi Moore's character in A Few Good Men said it best: "Because they stand on border and tell me I can sleep at night because they will protect me on their watch." Virtually all of the rank and file members of the US Armed Forces (and I've been living and working with them my entire life) are good, decent, and honorable people. They go "in harm's way" so *I* can live a good life here in the US and not have to worry about being shipped to a concentration camp or "re-education camp" or taken away in the night never to be heard from again. So I can "debate" this very question and not have to be afraid for a knock on the door.

Now, if you want to talk about "arbitrary borders" and nationalism and whatnot, I'll be more than happy to be your guide through the Wonderful World of Human History and Geopolitics. But don't diss the folks that keep you safe at night.

And I'm not even gonna DIGNIFY that comment about "all we need are nukes" with a reply.

Leigh Smith
B.A. International Relations
Navy Brat and proud of it.

My biggest complaint about soldiers is that they forget the "domestic" part when they take the oath to defend against "all enemies both foreign and domestic."

You don't get it and probably never will. Mind of a killer? I am at a loss of words on the thinking of some members on here but its the freedom of speech and you guys are welcome for that. Some people don't realize what they have till its gone. Just like the police, everyone hates them until they need them.

if you kill someone in direct self defense you have to live with it for the rest of your life, and it is the only form of killing that is even close to 'acceptable'.

if you kill someone in any other fashion you are the scum of the earth.

Under stood but the statement is "crystal clear". I didnt like the bullying a smaller soldier either, no place for code reds, blanket parties and the such. If a person cant cut it then discharge them and move on dont hurt them becasue they dont measure up. Military Life is not for everyone thats for sure.

PS : Jessup was arrested becasue he lied about ordering the code red. He wasnt disobeying anything..... he gave the order. (But thats Hollywood)

Take care

[edit on 3-10-2007 by geemony]

One of my neighbours, a very old gentleman, died 2 years ago. It was only at his funeral that we learned that during his time in the British Army he helped liberate the Belsen death camp. Never told his family. Only confided in a very long line of family priests over the years because he'd been so troubled by what he'd seen. Brave men who gave their today for our tomorrow. And who do it still today. They deserve our respect and gratitude.

I'm sorry... Are you naturally stupid or do you have to work at it? I don't usually descend to the level of the ad hominem attack, but this is so blatently ... imbecillic that I can't believe it actually came out of a thinking human being.

Have you EVER read ANYTHING even CLOSE to a history book? Does the name Clauswitz mean anything to you? Sun Tsu? Machiavelli? Tacitus? Anyone? Bueller?

I WISH it was as you say. But I have to deal with Realpolitik and the way the world REALLY works. Taking away armies or military won't take away humanity's violent impulses. If you really think that it's ONLY the military that causes war or violence might I refer you to Dr. Haing S. Ngor, the Cambodian physician who lived through the Killing Fields in Kampuchea after the Khmer Rouge took over. Or, as someone else has mentioned, the survivors of the violence between the Tutsi and Hutu tribes in Rwanda. Or, for that matter, what was done in the lands that formerly made up the broken nation-state of Yugoslavia.

Henry Kissenger said:



I'm not quite willing to do that, thankyouverymuch.

Leigh Smith

You know sometimes you just need to look at things at the lowest level. Watching the news, internet etc does not give you that option. Instead of calling it freedom lets just say people have the inherent right not to be oppressed.

Our military does not see things in the macro sense. For them it could be just saving the life of one person, or building one school, or repairing one clean water system that they see as a single step of freeing a group of people from oppression. It can also be killing a group of men or preventing a bomb from going off in a market too. You can be all high and mighty and call it an unjust war and the military is blind etc, but the thousands of good things done daily by our troops are not reported on, but the one bad event that happens now and then is broadcast world wide.

My question back at you is what should be done about all the people in the world that live under oppression to the point they have a good chance any given day of dieing by violence, starvation, and disease, and have no nope for the future other than where their next meal might come from and whether they will live another day, what should be done?

Didn't read the responses to the OP, but felt the need to respond after the I finished the opener.

I don't agree with this war. In fact I think the entire administration, Congress and Government need to be gutted and replaced. We need a tremendous overhaul of our political system in the United States.

BUT, soldiers cannot be blamed for the action of a few. These people stood up (albeit, under false pretenses) to protect and defend America and it's people. Most were fooled into that patriotic feeling of service. But, they signed up with the right intentions and don't deserve to be disrespected.

They're putting their lives on the line in order for you to live free. I won't disagree that this war has nothing to do with our freedom and very little to do with our safety and security, but regardless of that ... most of these people didn't sign up because they were going to go invade a country or they wanted to further the agenda of the Administration. Most felt the need to serve and protect the people of this country.

If you're looking for someone to disrespect or find fault with ... turn your attention to our executive, congressional, and judicial branches. And after they're delt with, focus on the REAL problem: The upper echelon of the private sector that control the government. The top 10th of the wealthiest 1% that own the media outlets, pharmacudical companies, banks, and other monopoly that dominate and control the political agendas of America.

I can't stress that last statement enough. People place the blame at the bottom rung of the latter and don't know where the real evil lies.

[edit on 3-10-2007 by tyranny22]

reply to post by Xtrozero

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Well said brother. I am sick and tried of all the bad press our military gets and how some will run with it as if some expert in the matter.

As I'm sure Iraqi's are pretty sick of being poisioned by all of your lovely delpleted unranium weapons.

the self-righteousness reflected in the above quote (and others in this thread) is almost unbearable.

no matter the "sacrifices" of our beloved military, THEY do NOT give me my freedom. period. freedom is a birthright. just the same as beauty and love, freedom is a self-defining quality of living which is neither created nor destroyed.

i understand that there are some powerful forces in our world whose aim it is to convince me, by means of fear, to forfeit my birthright. but even under penalty of death, it is my decision alone to make that forfeiture.

to all of those self-righteous "patriots", i say: you can KEEP your sacrifice. i owe you nothing, least of all my freedom.

peace.

Lowest beings on earth? I take it you dont read much history.

Baby Killers and Rapists? I havnt seen any baby killers but the military is a reflection of the society it comes from and it does have rapists as society does. There are criminals both in the civilian world and the military.

What are you talking about? imaginary borders?

If we didnt have orders, laws, etc. we would have chaos and anarchy.
Is that what you want? Barbarism?

How in the heck do you think centers of civilization rose up out of barbarism? Egypt, Sumeria, Ancient China and India didnt come to be due to the efforts of lawless pacifists.

Alexander the Great didnt spread Western Civilization by lawless pacifism.
Caesar? Mohammed? Charlemagne? Chin? Kublai Khan? Suleiman? I could go on and on.

My point is Civilization cannot survive or spread without the Military. The Military is the Decisive factor in human history.

I highly, highly suggest you go read Carl Von Clausewitz's book On War. You can read the book here: www.clausewitz.com...

Clausewitz
en.wikipedia.org...
On War
en.wikipedia.org...

Second I highly recommend Niccolo Machivelli's Art of War and The Prince
Here's the whole book Art of War: www.constitution.org...

Machiavelli
en.wikipedia.org...
The Art of War
en.wikipedia.org...
The Prince
en.wikipedia.org...

This is another good one: The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon. You can find the entire set here: oll.libertyfund.org...

You have a very deluded view of the world and reality. Educate yourself and discover some truth.

"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."
Mao Zedong




[edit on 3/10/07 by MikeboydUS]