Very Very well said vagabond. I have nothing more to say on the matter.

[edit on 3-10-2007 by jpm1602]

I don't respect soldiers. they are part of the problem. if they weren't being used to kill, then we wouldn't have the problem. we are not fighting for any freedom whatsoever. Freedom in America was given when we declared independence and stopped being bullied by the British governments. we got our freedom back then..hence then, no one has taken our freedoms away, so we are not fighting for it anymore. it's not the 1700 anymore.

So for people to say that "we are fighthing for your freedom" it's ALL pure rubbish. we had our freedom and we will always will, dont let those people control your mind by using that lame argument. if so, get a copy of the delaration, constitution or other document and show them. We are NO longer fighting for anything..it's been done and it's been fought..and those soldiers that died for us back then, I respect..not the soldiers of today.

I have mixed feelings on this issue.

We have a volunteer military in this country. No one compels you to join the service. Granted, there's a lot of people who join up for college or monetary reasons, but from the way it sounds, most seem to think they are serving the people of their country and keeping them free from tyranny. That's a very noble purpose.

I consider myself to be a very patriotic American, but i would never serve in the military. I do my duty as a civilian and educate myself so I can participate in the democratic society the founders of this country envisioned.

If you look at the relatively short history of this country, the military, by and large, has been used to project American power around the globe, most often at the expense of other people. I believe this is counter to the spirit of the American revolution. It's happened over and over again, and it's well documented, so there's no excuse for not knowing except turning a blind eye. Choosing ignorance.

Do soldiers deserve more respect than the protestors in the streets risking their safety and freedom to end what they believe is an unjust and illegal war which is harming the American people? Do they deserve less because they don't do their duty as citizens and instead blindly follow orders from above?

I know i'm walking a fine line here, but like I said, I'm conflicted on this issue. I respect the fact that they are willing to lay down their lives for what they believe in, but if they know that the people they take orders from are corrupt, they should refuse to serve and know that it takes just as much courage to stand up for what you believe in as it does to fire a weapon.

Thats my two cents.

Originally posted by milesp
I have mixed feelings on this issue.

We have a volunteer military in this country. No one compels you to join the service. Granted, there's a lot of people who join up for college or monetary reasons, but from the way it sounds, most seem to think they are serving the people of their country and keeping them free from tyranny. That's a very noble purpose.

If you are compelled to enlist so that your children have food on the table that is no different then being compelled at the end of a whip. Some people have purposed that we should have a draft for this reason, if the war is important enough to all Americans then people would agree to a draft. Also all people in government office have their children deployed in forward areas, so they can best help fight for freedom.

I consider myself to be a very patriotic American, but i would never serve in the military. I do my duty as a civilian and educate myself so I can participate in the democratic society the founders of this country envisioned.

Your duty is very important, it is also very safe and requires far less sacrifice then the soldier that bleeds on the battlefield.

I know i'm walking a fine line here, but like I said, I'm conflicted on this issue. I respect the fact that they are willing to lay down their lives for what they believe in, but if they know that the people they take orders from are corrupt, they should refuse to serve and know that it takes just as much courage to stand up for what you believe in as it does to fire a weapon.

I agree, if they believe the cause corrupt then they are lacking in courage by serving in the military.

There is a line of reason that says protesters are just soldiers for a different faction of the elite, they risk their welfare to push an agenda that some in the elite support but do not risk anything to further that agenda. It states the idea that "the points you earn are mine." They again gain without any risk or open sacrifice. I see this as those trying to get Hillary in office on the backs of those upset at Bush, they don't see Hillary is the same as Bush.

[edit on 3-10-2007 by Redge777]

Grow some nads Ason and get back to me on that.

Originally posted by jpm1602
Grow some nads Ason and get back to me on that.

yep, I will get back to you...please enlighten me as to what exactly it is I should get back to you about?

Forgive me if I don't reply for a while...it's late here and i have to go to bed so I can get up and go to work, so it may be 20 hours or so before i do.

I'm going to add another tangent to this thread - this is not coming from the realist in me, but the utopian (please bear in mind). Why support a war machine run entirely and exclusively by and for THE ELITE? What I'm getting at, is that we are here at a conspiracy website; the majority of us believe that the Elite / Illuminati / Military Industrial Complex / Secret Govt / Evil Cabal / call them whatever you will run the show and make the decisions, NOT the Government nor the people. All of that is a facade to make people feel secure and good about themselves.

What I'm saying, is how can you reconcile the order to go and kill another human being in the name of war with the possibility that the order was ultimately given with an agenda in mind, totally unrelated to what you supposedly thought you were fighting for. Vietnam for example, we know now, was a front for profiteering from drug-running to fund the secret technology and places we know now as Area 51. Well that's the conspiracy theory anyway, haha.

Would you still go out and follow orders to fight in Afghanistan even if you KNEW that 9/11 was a sham from the outset, committed by 'terrorists within'? Just playing devil's advocate here. Because to me, if you know deep in your heart that the decisions are being controlled at some higher level in the pyramid, then you are no longer defending your country, you are nothing more than a disposable robot of the Elite.

Ok, I'm going to take my "skeptic / utopian" hat off now and put the "realist" hat back on. I respect all of you soldiers on here and what you do. I understand your perspectives. My post is simply just to step outside of that box for a second, and perhaps make us ALL question the wider machinations of the world around us.

Unfortunately, the way we see the outside world is shaped largely by what we see and experience, on what we've been told and taught. If it's the 'unseen' which happens to be truly shaping our world, then those unseen hands bear little influence on our worldview. Hence, we see 'good guys', 'bad guys', 'potential problems', and 'lethal reactions / solutions'. We are conditioned into a particular form of reaction. We've been conditioned to be warlike and to 'band together in solidarity' since the moment we began here on Earth. We're all a bunch of sheep and never question it. If we do, we're branded wimps and outcasts, deserters. Social conditioning. Mind control. Media conditioning. Conditioning through fear. I could go on and on.

But look, I understand the reality of it. You've gotta do what you've gotta do, or the 'free world' wouldn't exist, right? We'd all be speaking some weird foreign language, enslaved in a sweatshop on the outskirts of town somewhere. I respect you soldier guys, I'm just throwing ideas out. Throwing questions. That's all.

Goodnite dear Ason, sleep tight knowing that fellow Americans are making your bed tight.

Originally posted by Redge777
If you are compelled to enlist so that your children have food on the table that is no different then being compelled at the end of a whip. Some people have purposed that we should have a draft for this reason, if the war is important enough to all Americans then people would agree to a draft. Also all people in government office have their children deployed in forward areas, so they can best help fight for freedom.

I guess if you're already in and have a family that relies on you, there's not much you can do.

There is a line of reason that says protesters are just soldiers for a different faction of the elite, they risk their welfare to push an agenda that some in the elite support but do not risk anything to further that agenda. It states the idea that "the points you earn are mine." They again gain without any risk or open sacrifice. I see this as those trying to get Hillary in office on the backs of those upset at Bush, they don't see Hillary is the same as Bush.

[edit on 3-10-2007 by Redge777]

AS for protestors being foot soldiers for different factions of the elite, I don't know if that's a bad thing. There are people in congress who aren't corrupt and have what they believe to be the genuine best interests of the country in mind when they do their jobs.

And for the record, I'm not particularly impressed with 'anti-war' left in this country at the moment.

I was talking to a young guy from Greece at the poker table a couple days ago and he said that people at least try to keep the government in check over there. They know what's at stake and they'll burn buildings down if the government doesn't listen to them.

Their used to be a strong and informed citizenry in this country, but honestly it seems pretty hopeless at the moment.

do you know anyone currently in service now? any vets??
if you do, then well, use your judgement as to weather or not those individuals deserve you respect or not...
I've know a few over the years, some I learned to respect, some I really found not reason to, and well, there's some I found myself pitying and really feeling a tad bit guilty for my part in this society that so often abandons the servicemen when the scars of their experiences are too much for them to be able to handle...

don't know anyone who fits into the class you are trying to judge, well, stay neutral or give the guys the benefit of the doubt.

but, If you want my opinion, the idea that there should be respect for the servicemen and women is just being used as a political toy. a way to kind of silence those who don't agree with the ideologies of those who support this war...but then, when it is the servicemen speaking out against the war, well, we see these very same people throwing the idea out the window, calling them fake soldiers. too many of these guys are coming back in pretty bad shape. weather we agree that the war was started to protect our freedom or to protect the oilman's wealth doesn't matter much...
the guys and gals are gonna need our support when they come home to deal with life without legs, or without arms, or without the same mental functions that they left. I have met too many nam vets that were left out to dry when they came home. I ran into one one day in a mc donalds resturant, he was going around to people just trying to talk to them and most were telling him to buzz off....he sat by us, and well, my husband recognized what he was, and began to carry on a conversation with him. in the end, he was begging for the food we didn't eat....
they might sign up for various reasons, but in the end, many sacrifice way too much y in the name of protecting our security. if you chose someone not to support, well, don't support those who would send them into danger under false pretenses....but give the troops coming home all the support you can. if you don't and more end up begging in resturants, some of our kids might get wise and realize just what a bad deal the service offers them, and well, you may actually need them someday in the future to really protect you freedoms!

Originally posted by jpm1602
Goodnite dear Ason, sleep tight knowing that fellow Americans are making your bed tight.

You make the assumption that soldiers are currently protecting the interest of the average American. I would say they are protecting the interest of the wealthy, at the cost of the average American. A 1 trillion and country breaking cost.

Originally posted by x0846
Because they do a job pussies like you are scared #less to do.

Fear is based on what one believes. If he believes that society is being controlled, and bad things, economic or worse, happen to those that speak out, then from his perspective he is standing against fear.

I might ask you, do your thoughts come from thinking, or fear, are you to scared to examine the possibilities that you are wrong?

Should American's fear from a terrorist attack let them give up their liberties? I heard freedom requires bravery. Bravery of the kind I mentioned more then the one you do.

[edit on 3-10-2007 by Redge777]