when I get older rofl...whatever

Hey Seagull, thankyou for your replies, and yes, I think that we can agree to disagree. All the best, kia kaha.


Ka kite ano

yes i think its stupid to blindly say we support our soldiers because thats what the war machine wants you to think. the most important question you can ask is what would love do now.?. Dennis Kucinich carries the st francis prayer, make me an instrument of your peace which says that Dennis is the only politician that knows the power of love. I keep hearing you ppl say that we need to respect our soldiers because of the nobility of their causes. They don't see fighting this war as an oppertunity like the revolutionaries did, they see fighting as an obligation. Theres nothing great about the US military. We need a military to oppress ppl and to take their resources. No one is going to invade america no matter how paranoid you actually are. If you arm and train the citizens with military weapons and systematically lock all weapons from shooting until a government athorization code is issued to the gun user, in times of crisis and with a need for protection by placing a 911 call or something equivilant, if you did all this, you would find that ppl can repel any army on their own land. Its called gurilla warfare. I'm not saying all americans need to be pacifists but i'm not saying we should give the responsiblity to protect us to a war machine power. We should tax all profit from war and reconstruction contracts, which would illiminate the desire by big business to go to war. America is responsible for many interventions in the world, as well as being a leading arms dealer. Its the bankers that support wars the most because they fund both sides. I do believe that respecting troops is only good when they are on the ppl's side. Today the soldiers are on the global elites side and the terrorists as we call them are the true revolutionaries fighting for the causes of their people. War makes ppl go crazy and did you know that 25% of homeless ppl in america are vetrans. we dont need to be fighting terrorism, we need to seek preventative solutions that are based on feeding, and building grassroots economic power, to show are compassion. The primative drive of our culture is to show its got the biggest hammer. If you hit someone with a hammer you quickly figure out that they will soon get a hammer themselves and hit you back. This the road we have choose to go down. This is the cause of terrorism. I don't respect soldiers because they dont fight the people's causes. Their brainwashed to believe they are protecting our freedom. THe terrorists dont hate us cause of the freedom we have. They hate us because the global elite are interfearing with their society in an effort to take power and oppress.

This may be the single greatest post in the history of posting.

The sentiment here is outstanding. Way to cut through all the crap and make your point.

Great job and thank you.

reply to post by Enrikez

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But it is still an illusion. The only substantial thing a soldier does is fulfill the will of a higher authority. Soldiers are ONE of several tools used by policymakers (which can also reside within the military, but that is irrelevant in this context), nothing less but also nothing more. The military can be used to protect certain society standards; it can´t claim responsibility for the standards themselves. As an example, soldiers fought for the american independence and its ideas. But the development of the civil society itself was responsible that the independence and the new ideas were even warranted for.

The statement by "zoso28" is comparable to a mechanic demanding respect that he and his colleagues built your new car to such high standards - omitting that they built it on behalf of a carmaking company, using tools made by others, according to the designs of a separate engineer bureau and, not the least, because the customer is willing to pay for it.

As numerous examples from overarmed but "underdeveloped" countries around the world show, the defining factor of any society is the niveau of its cultural and social development. No amount of soldiers was ever capable to sustain a society order that did not come from within the people.

I feel our Soilders in Iraq are fighting "from" our country, not "for" our country. You could say their fighting for Iraq's freedom. This unjust war has absolutely nothing to do with american citizens freedoms. we would not be any less "free" having never gone there in the first place.

Are freedom in this country was originally earned Through sacrifice and by defiance of unjust laws. Blindly following orders in a war does not maintain or gain anyones freedoms in the USA.

reply to post by MrsEsterhouse

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We are fighting for freedom- ours and theirs. It's a pretty narrow view to think that the freedom of others isn't a valuable/noble goal. Democracies tend not to war with one another, so it's in our interest to support them when possible, especially when the region in question is involved.

How are we fighting for our freedom? Please explain? Im not sure what you mean by "ours" or "freedom." Our soldiers are fighting for their own ability to be able to eventually come home. our military fighting for Iraq's people's freedom was an afterthought. We went overy there on bunk intel about WMD's designed to make people fear for themselves.
You can not force a country into demoracy, that is not freedom. The people of the country have to want to adopt it by there own FREE will. Think if an occupation force invaded the USA and said they were fighting for your freedom, all the while their killing hundreds of thousands of civilians not even taking up arms against said occupying force. Would you believe there holding your interests at heart?

reply to post by MrsEsterhouse

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We haven't killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, or forced them to be free. We set the conditions where they could write a constitution and vote on candidates that they wanted to(risking their lives to do so). Iraqis have been fighting along side us against the insurgency, and joining the military and police in droves. We protect our freedom by setting conditions- (i.e. the more democracies out there, the fewer the anti American tyrants). Like I said earlier, we fight for Freedom, not just for "our" Freedom. The more freedom that is out there, the fewer enemies that are out there.

from
www.washingtonpost.com...







Ok I was wrong on the numbers. Somewhere between 10,000 and 100,000
Iraqi civilian deaths. My point is still valid though.

For the record, I do deeply respect our men and women in armed service. This respect does not keep me from questioning our motives for being in iraq. I do not have one ounce of respect for the higher-ups that lied to us about this war. We have enough problems in our own country. We need to be dedicating our own resources to our country! Wars can bankrupt countries! where do you think this money goes?

reply to post by MrsEsterhouse

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If you count civilians being killed by insurgents as having died because of the US invasion, then you can make all sorts of interesting statistics up.
It is not accurate to say that the US has killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. We haven't even killed hundreds of thousands of insurgents, who are the folks we're trying to kill, much less folks we're not trying to kill.

You should respect other because it is what makes people human. Do animals respect one another? No. They might fear one another, thus allowing a Alpha chain of command, but there is no honor or admiration among animals.

Do you respect black people ... white people? Do you respect Jews ... Christians?

It's not the same, you say? I beg to differ.

As you made apparent in your OP - people are nothing more than just that. People. And you should respect your fellow people. If someone does something to lose your respect, that's fine. But to say that you have no respect for someone because he his labeled a soldier makes you a bigot. Just as if you were to say you have no respect for black people or Jewish people. You cannot label a certain group as a whole.

Saying you have no respect for a person because he is a soldier is the same thing as saying you have no respect for a person because he's a white Christian. You've lumped every white Christian into one group just as you've lumped all soldiers into one group.

And if you're still able to say that you respect no soldier ... you deserve no respect from any of us here on ATS.

reply to post by zoso28

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sorry to jump into this discussion so late but this statement is most likely entire crock

did you fight in world war 2?
if not, shut up.

every was since ww2 has been an aggressive war in defense of nothing but the interests of the few.