WheelsRCool

my apologies to everyone, but I just have to respond.....just one more time, since it's off topic I know...but...

well,

quite frankly, I don't like the pampered slave system much either...and that is what those who are depending on the government to help feed them, house them, ect are...pampered slaves...but still slaves....shhh...if we don't say anything, maybe they won't notice...

I agree our educational system needs to be updated to meet the needs of our century, but I am against privitizing it...
and well, in reality, privitization seems not to be any cheaper, or beneficial to society....look at blackwater, or haliburton for example...

and along with medicaid, and welfare, I am including some other programs, like hud (helps pay the rent for low income families), heap (helps pay for the heat for low income families), food stamps (helps feed low income families), and the programs the helps low income families with healthcare for themselves and children......
yes there are some who don't work, but there are many many more in these programs that ARE WORKING, but their wages are too low to provide for their family...bus drivers, managers of big chain resturants, screen printers, roofers, parking lot pavers....these are just some of the occupations people I have known who were on some of these programs worked in.....
so no, there's many jobs out there that are paying a living wage. what the heck, I am probably gonna be refusing an operation I need rather soon, simply because, even with the insurance, I am probably gonna be owing more than a few years of my pay....

and well.....one could argue that they spent the social security money in the pay increases, their wars, their corporate welfare.....can you prove that money specifically went into the welfare programs?
I mean later on down, you say that 40% of everyone's pay is going to pay for these programs.....
and by the way, I am not saying I can't afford this operation because our bills are eating up my paycheck as it is...I am saying I could put every cent I make into paying for it and still wouldn't have it paid off in two years!!

but overall, you missed my point entirely....these programs are subsidizing alot of those working in these low wage jobs that are all around us, in many of the companies that are paying these wages, elsewhere in the company there's some making way more than they need to survive....and well, take away those subsidies and you will be losing customers at one end....the subsidies won't be there for the customers to use to spend, and then you'll also have alot of employers needing higher salaries if the companies want well rested, healthy, non-starving people doing the work...
in plain simple words...it was easier to put these programs into play than it would be to take them out of play....if you drop medicaid, well, you will lose alot of patients, won't need as many doctors and such, more unemployment. if you drop hud, well, the people renting the property won't be able to get the rent they need to pay the mortgage on the property. if you drop the medicaid, well, then all I can say if you are already screwed as it is if a biological weapon is ever dropped in a lower working class neighborhood since many of them have such little access to the healthcare system that they will have waited till they are about dead before they go to the emergency room, and by then , they will have passed the cute little germ all over the place!!

Whereas I don't believe in this war...

it's their choice to be in their situation(for what ever reason) and I respect that-just as your opinion to say this.
You say they are the"lowest level of human beings on earth"... that is a little too much, isn't it? As I bet not every one of them is killing(I don't believe i killing another) or hurting people. There's lots of jobs to do as a soilder.

Would you feel 'pitty' for a relative or friend as a soilder who is injured?

[edit on 8-10-2007 by dreamingawake]

It seems to me that a number of people are blaming our soldiers for things like the Iraq war. Keep in mind that people who enlist to become soldiers, just want a better life for themselves and want to protect their country. Does anyone actually think that any sane person would join the military because they want to kill or hurt other people? Of course not.

My point is, our US soldiers have not failed us but our government has failed them and by not supporting our troops, we as US citizens are failing our soldiers as well.

Stop blaming our troops and put blame where it belongs.

SUPPORT OUR TROOPS !!!!!!!

I would also like to say that all soldiers deserve to be treated with respect. I encourage everyone to show soldiers our appreciation in any way they can, even if it's simply walking up to one you see, shaking his/her hand and saying THANK YOU.

From what I've seen and heard, British and US troops are NOT receiving the respect and support they deserve from us so lets PLEASE change that. They're putting their lives and bodies on the lines everyday to protect us as best they can.

Our soldiers have NEVER failed us in any way but if you think our government has, get involved, vote, petition, etc... We must learn to separate the person from the government and put the blame where it belongs. A soldier standing guard to protect his fellow soldiers, did not put the US and Britain in Iraq.

I still don't get the whole 'respect as a matter of course" thing
They would far and away get respect from me if they stood up to the injustices that the Military-Industrial complex is propagating.
To say they are 'just following orders' and they are not to blame is just wrong...they are culpable by being part of the problem...why not be part of the solution?

Originally posted by AotearoaSon
I still don't get the whole 'respect as a matter of course" thing
They would far and away get respect from me if they stood up to the injustices that the Military-Industrial complex is propagating.
To say they are 'just following orders' and they are not to blame is just wrong...they are culpable by being part of the problem...why not be part of the solution?

So have you joined the military and are now in the process of doing what you have stated above?

I'm sorry that you don't get that many soldiers join the military because they want to help their country.

Have they been failed by their country? YES.
Have the soldiers failed their country? NO.

You make it sound so simple to just not do as you're instructed. Why don't you join and try it.

As opposed to telling well intentioned honorable people that they are "culpable", why not support them in doing what you consider "the right thing".
Can you see where asking for their help may get more of a positive response then calling them criminals?

Originally posted by jfj123

As opposed to telling well intentioned honorable people that they are "culpable", why not support them in doing what you consider "the right thing".
Can you see where asking for their help may get more of a positive response then calling them criminals?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
I just flat out disagree with the military and think that the good they do is overshadowed hugely by the harm.

I will never join the military, even if we were invaded. My strengths are in horticulture and geology and I would be much better suited growing food and keeping access to resources open than KILLING other people.

IMHO soldiers are state-sanctioned murderers and that will not change,
So much for civilisation and democracy if we have to enforce it with death.

[edit on 16-10-2007 by AotearoaSon]

[edit on 16-10-2007 by AotearoaSon]

When you sign up to support and defend the constitution we must do so to avoid anarchy. We must follow the will of the elected president. Did you vote when Bush was elected? If anyone has any shame to bare it would be those who voted for a leader that took us into an unjust war and those who never vote at all.

The military follows the orders of the President that the American public elected. If the military did not follow the orders you could find yourself under military rule or worse.

We do not always agree with the orders we are given but to maintain civilization we must honor the oaths we took even when we do not agree with those we swore to follow.

YOU elected them. You can remove them.

Soldiers are often misused as I believe is the case in Iraq. The soldiers are honorable for serving at the possible expense of their lives. The congress could remove a benevolent leader if they so wish. Again, it is YOU that cause their election and you can change who is in charge of the honorable men defending your countries values in this world by voting and supporting alternative candidates.

I retired earlier than I intended to, to avoid supporting a war I did not find to be just. I served loyally to the last day of my of service. Much of that service was spent in the Sand Box.

Originally posted by seagull


It's a little thing called honor

Riiiight! so there is honour in upholding a corrupt regime? So much for civilisation and love. they must have no self-respect if they know that they are fighting an illegal war and upholding the power of the corrupt. If that is honour, then it can go out the damn door with respect and all those other things we are "supposed" to do as a matter of course.

[edit on 22-10-2007 by AotearoaSon]

Corrupt Regime? How very poetic. So because you have issues with the current administration, you are going to stereotype everyone in uniform?

I shouldn't be to surprised that people disparage the uniformed services since that seems to be the in thing to do to prove ones hatred of war, or violence... Do you honestly think that most of those kids over there in dangers way, wouldn't much rather be doing something, anything, else? Like, oh I don't know, raising their kids, going fishing, watching the grass grow? If you do, you are even less in touch with reality than I thought.

Originally posted by seagull
Corrupt Regime? How very poetic. So because you have issues with the current administration, you are going to stereotype everyone in uniform?

Well, yes, I will stereotype if they are upholding a corrupt regime. I do not live in the USA so I can't vote the fool out, but I can register my dissent BECAUSE the regime is affecting MY life and the lives of those I love and care about.

Upholding corruption by being one of the vehicles for said corruption does not garner my respect.

I dream about all the soldiers laying down their weapons and refusing to fight. Then i would give them respect.
Respect for killing? NO WAY!

"war is terrorism". Wow, yet another cliche, I'm duly impressed. Yes, war is terrorism, war is bloody, war is horrible...it's all those things and more that you and I, having never been there can possibly conceive of.

I, along with many others, have attempted to explain to you, and others, why soldiers are worthy of respect...in most all cases it's bounced off the armour of your willing ignorance and hatred of the political beast's who give the orders.

Earlier you used the phrase, I may be paraphrasing here, so bear with me, "upholding a corrupt regime" or words to that effect. Upholding a corrupt regime? Only if they voted for him, which admittedly a large majority did both times. But only in that way. In another year plus a few days, Mr. Bush will be gone...what'll your excuse for hating soldiers be then?

Certainly it would be wonderful if we didn't need soldiers standing in harms way...that'd be just peachy with me, then my little brother and I could do brotherly things together like fishing, just hanging out, annoying each other, you know brotherly things.

But unfortunately, the real world doesn't work that way, so he's standing firmly in harms way, so that I, all my sisters, my father, and his beloved niece don't have to attempt to get out of its way. He gave his oath, his word of honor to do his duty. His oath before God, which means alot to him, and to others just like him.

If ever I'm forced to decide between my brother and others like him, or the ones who hate him for what he is...my choice is obvious, you lose.

Yes, yes, I've discovered the joys of cliche as well...doesn't make it any less true. There, I've tried again, no doubt this one'll bounce, too.

[edit on 26-10-2007 by seagull]

Look, I can understand why you would be upset with me, and yeah, your brother is your brother, through thick and thin.
So soldiers uphold their oath and the constitution, but I don't see that happening, and just because the figurehead changes doesn't mean the regime changes, and yeah, in the 'real world' it seems soldiers are a necessity, but that doesn't mean, as a matter of course, or obligation or whatever, that I should respect them.
It seems we are diametrically opposed: you see it as a duty, to the country , to humanity, and to God (??). I don't. I feel sorry for the soldiers, but don't ask me to respect them when it goes against my very being.
I'm trying to be civil. I could rant and rave, but that does nothing ( if you think I've ranted and raved already, just bear in mind that I have held a lot back because that would be less than constructive in trying to foster understanding.

Peace out.

Originally posted by AotearoaSon
Look, I can understand why you would be upset with me, and yeah, your brother is your brother, through thick and thin.
So soldiers uphold their oath and the constitution, but I don't see that happening, and just because the figurehead changes doesn't mean the regime changes, and yeah, in the 'real world' it seems soldiers are a necessity, but that doesn't mean, as a matter of course, or obligation or whatever, that I should respect them.
It seems we are diametrically opposed: you see it as a duty, to the country , to humanity, and to God (??). I don't. I feel sorry for the soldiers, but don't ask me to respect them when it goes against my very being.
I'm trying to be civil. I could rant and rave, but that does nothing ( if you think I've ranted and raved already, just bear in mind that I have held a lot back because that would be less than constructive in trying to foster understanding.

Peace out.

Well, maybe there is something wrong with your being??? Those soldiers whom you so eagerly denigrate, are there to protect you and your rights which IRONICALLY include freedom of speech (your right to denigrate them). I'm really not sure why you can't understand that they give you rights by protecting them through force of arms.

Soldiers are necessary in this world because, to put it REALLY SIMPLE, there are a lot of mean people in the world. If there weren't mean people, we wouldn't need soldiers. Get it? As a sign of appreciation, you respect those who protect you from those mean people mentioned above. I'm sure when you get older, you'll start to understand what I'm saying.

[edit on 27-10-2007 by jfj123]