A contradiction in the bible

Thanks for the replies, and John Matrix I do like the way you described it but it is still my opinion that Jesus Christ is From God as in offspring and that apart of God is apart of him and that the teaching/belief in the trinity could be dangerous to your soul and everlasting life.

The way it's been described makes the Temptation of Christ seem foolish, I mean what was the point, if they are one satan would know this and it would seem impossible for one part to sin or to rebel against the other.

Just for the record: Im not atheist, and I feel man/the church has corrupted the bible and it's teaching, and this could jeopardize your immortal soul buy worshiping 3 gods instead of 1 God.

I wanna hear opinions not just scripture quotes, its not in the bible, and we can quote and re quote back and forth and this in itself is a contradiction.

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Moosemose

1. The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible. It is a technical
theological word coined in the fourth century A.D. to describe a theological
concept.

The word Trinity is not found in the bible but Paul clearly states that the father, the word (also used to describe Jesus) and the holy ghost are one.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Originally posted by miriam0566except jesus is not equal to god. said so himself. nor is he eternal, least 2 scripture point to a creation of jesus.

Where does the bible say this?
Jesus was not created. If you are referring to Colossians 1:15 and Rev 3:14, You must have your translation and interp of these two verses of the bible mixed up.

Colossians 1:15 it says,

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

(first created being of God)

Now listen closely: The word First created in Greek (which the NT was written) means "protoktioti"

If Paul meant that Jesus was the first created he would have used this word. ( protoktioti ) He did not. Instead he uses another word,"prototokos"

Paul is referring to the Jewish use of the word "First Born" which means not only first born but it is also used as a title of sovereignty and pre-eminence

an example of this would be in Psalm 89:27 god says of David " I shall make him my first born, The highest of the kings of the earth.
Is David the first born of Jesse? no he was not.

The words first born here mean that David is pre-eminent or sovereign of all the kings of the earth.

Colossians 1:18 backs this up.

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;( referring to Jesus)

The Greek word for beginning is "arche"
it means "origin or source" or "ruler" but not FIRST CREATED!

In Rev 21:6 Jehovah calls himself the beginning. Does this mean that Jehovah was created? NO!
Your use of the word beginning is incorrect.

reply to post by oliveoil


I gave you a star, not because of your false trinity explanation, but because you explained the falseness of Jesus being "created" by God the Father to miriam. Two little pieces of scripture with the words "beginning" or "firstborn" are not proof enough for me, especially since the greek words used bury the argument and further prove the pre-creation existence of Jesus, who was the Word of God and one of two in the "Elohim" or "family of God", not trinity.

reply to post by LDragonFire


You want my personal opinion? Monotheism is not what people are thinking. Belief in one God (person) is what most people get out of monotheism. My belief in the "family of God" (Elohim) would explain monotheism as in the sense of ONE GOD (ELOHIM) FAMILY. God the Father is the head of the Family and the Son is the inheriter of the Family. The soon-to-be resurrected saints will be married into the family and become God (Elohim) themselves. Those to be resurrected 1000 years later at the White Throne Judgement, if accept God in His presence, will be adopted into the Family and become God (Elohim) themselves. The Father is the Head Elohim and the Son is the eldest Elohim.

My beliefs. Decent explanation of why there was plurality in Genesis with Elohim and "Us". Elohim was the Father and Word (Jesus) in Genesis 1. Jesus was creator (builder, carpenter) while the Father was the creator (architect, mastermind) of all creation.

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by oliveoil

 

I gave you a star, not because of your false trinity explanation, but because you explained the falseness of Jesus being "created" by God the Father to miriam. Two little pieces of scripture with the words "beginning" or "firstborn" are not proof enough for me, especially since the greek words used bury the argument and further prove the pre-creation existence of Jesus, who was the Word of God and one of two in the "Elohim" or "family of God", not trinity.

I was not trying to prove my case for the Trinity when I quoted Colossians 1:15 and Rev 21:6

I could have done that by simply showing her many,many verses indicating that God the father is deity,Jesus is deity,and the Holy Ghost is deity.

1 John 5:7 confirms this.

What I was trying to do was show Miriam that the only two scriptures that she could possibly use in her defence against the Trinity ( Col 1:15 Rev 21:6)
Were very weak.

These two verses imply that Jesus was not created,

therefore making him a deity, equal to YHWH ETERNAL !!

and since there can only be one true god , hence the word Trinity.

Originally posted by Locoman8
Two little pieces of scripture with the words "beginning" or "firstborn" are not proof enough for me, especially since the greek words used bury the argument and further prove the pre-creation existence of Jesus, who was the Word of God and one of two in the "Elohim" or "family of God", not trinity.

two little pieces that suggest jesus was created (scripture in revelation cannot simply be explained away) vs. zero saying he is eternal.

even john 1:1 does not conflict with the idea that jesus is created. it simply places his birth before anything else.

let the bible speak for itself.

Originally posted by oliveoil
I could have done that by simply showing her many,many verses indicating that God the father is deity,Jesus is deity,and the Holy Ghost is deity.

1 John 5:7 confirms this.

7,8 - For there are three that testify:the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

im sorry, how does this scripture show the trinity?

oh right, your using the scripture that was added after the 8th century

What I was trying to do was show Miriam that the only two scriptures that she could possibly use in her defence against the Trinity ( Col 1:15 Rev 21:6)
Were very weak.

These two verses imply that Jesus was not created,

therefore making him a deity, equal to YHWH ETERNAL !!

and since there can only be one true god , hence the word Trinity.

lol. i actually found this comment funny.

first, i wasnt using these verses to disprove the trinity. they are verses that show that jesus was created.

how you think they imply that he wasnt is an amazing leap of logic.

you want to talk about the trinity and how jesus is equal to god?

john 5:[15] The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
[16] And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
[17] But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
[18] Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

ok, i think its safe to say that you agree with what the jews were accusing him. you think jesus is equal to god. if you are right, jesus would confirm this no?

[19] Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

jesus doesnt confirm it. if fact he says the opposite. he says that he does what he sees the father doing, not what he wills.

[20] For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

so the father teaches the son. "shows" him. if jesus was GOD and thereby equal to him, why would GOD need to show anything to him? they would be the same person!

[21] For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
[22] For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

how can jesusGODthing judge no man and yet commit to himself the job of judging all?

[23] That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

clearly talking about 2 people. how could god "send" himself?

[24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
[25] Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

"sent me"

[26] For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
[27] And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

"given to the son", "given him"

[30] I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

how can jesus "seek not" his own will, but the "will of the father" if they are the same person?!?!?!
they cant! that because jesus is not claiming to be GOD.

here is the point:

[31] If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

the bible says to let every matter be settled by the testimony of 2 or more witnesses. jesus is saying that his testimony is not enough.

[36] But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
[37] And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

he refers to GOD as a witness.

so jesus cannot use his own testimony, but can use his father's

[39] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

jesus then uses the scriptures as his second witness.

jesus himself, when given the allegation of equality to god refutes the claim. he then refers to his father as a separate witness, something that is IMPOSSIBLE if he was in fact god.

try, please i beg you, try to explain this chapter away. i would love to see how the trinity could possible fit into any of this chapter

The trinity of Godhead isn't hard to grasp. In hinduism for example, Krsna, or God expands himself into Brahma, the creative principle, Visnu the maintainer, and siva the destroyer who will annihalate the material creation at the close of the great cycle

reply to post by miriam0566


Hi miriam and welcome back

I have a question for you concerning Jesus. I have been told that Jesus is actually a Angel that God sent to earth. Michael i thing it was. I think its what a Jehovah witness told me. What can yo tell me about that?

Edit: for mistakes.

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

reply to post by miriam0566


zero explaining Him being eternal only if you believe He was not Jehovah. I've given plenty of scripture that shows that He claimed to be Jehovah. Once again, agree to disagree on this one.

reply to post by miriam0566
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

im sorry, how does this scripture show the trinity?:

Father, Word, Holy Spirit = 3 = Trinity

oh right, your using the scripture that was added after the 8th century:

Yes I am. But the Comma was added from the same book it came from.I believe it was a marginal note that Jerome left out when he translated the Vulgate as their are plenty of referrences made prior to the eighth century in regards to the Comma.
What century was the NWT released ?

first, i wasnt using these verses to disprove the trinity. they are verses that show that jesus was created.:

As I have already shown you how we already established the fact that Jesus was not created.
therefore he must be a true god. and since we only believe in one true god, this creates a conflict.
Hence Trinity.Conflict resolved.

how you think they imply that he wasnt is an amazing leap of logic.:

I don't understand?

you want to talk about the trinity and how jesus is equal to god?:

I would first like to establish the fact that Jesus is deity.As this strenghens the case for the trinity.

ok, i think its safe to say that you agree with what the jews were accusing him. you think jesus is equal to god. if you are right, jesus would confirm this no?:

Jesus did confirm this by preforming a miracle John5:8

jesus doesnt confirm it. if fact he says the opposite. he says that he does what he sees the father doing, not what he wills.:

As I said, John 5:8 confirms this.

so the father teaches the son. "shows" him. if jesus was GOD and thereby equal to him, why would GOD need to show anything to him? they would be the same person!:

They are the same however Jesus is God in the flesh. a man. The Father is working miracles through this man, Jesus, Who is God in the flesh.

how can jesusGODthing judge no man and yet commit to himself the job of judging all?:

God the Father through God the son, all men will be judged.

clearly talking about 2 people. how could god "send" himself?:

God the father sends God the son.

"sent me":

whats the question?

"given to the son", "given him:

your going in circles

how can jesus "seek not" his own will, but the "will of the father" if they are the same person?!?!?!

God the father is not a person, God the son is

they cant! that because jesus is not claiming to be GOD.:

Jesus is right not to go as far as to claim he is God in front of the jews.
His actions are speaking for him

here is the point:

ok

the bible says to let every matter be settled by the testimony of 2 or more witnesses. jesus is saying that his testimony is not enough.:

Jonh the babtist?
God the Father ?

he refers to GOD as a witness.:

Yes

so jesus cannot use his own testimony, but can use his father's:

ok

jesus then uses the scriptures as his second witness.:

I didnt quite get that but ok .

jesus himself, when given the allegation of equality to god refutes the claim. he then refers to his father as a separate witness, something that is IMPOSSIBLE if he was in fact god.:

Jesus is God the son .He is the spirit in the flesh.

try, please i beg you, try to explain this chapter away. i would love to see how the trinity could possible fit into any of this chapter:

The trinity consists of three. The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost

This chapter only speaks of two. The Father and the Son.

Although Jesus does not come right out and say he is god,(they would have killed him right there) through his actions (miracles) that's exactly what he is doing.

Imagine this scene if you will humor m for a while.

Before creation, you have a position of observer.

You are observing God, He is alone and is stationary.

God begins to think. You still observe Him as motionless and stationary.

God thinks that he will initiate creation. (light, universe, animals, etc.)

God inhales a breath, (same as spirit), and because it is God it is a HOLY BREATH a HOLY SPIRIT.

God formulates the WORDS which cause creation.

God is inseparable from His SPIRIT and His WORD.

Thence you observe, (hear, see) the GOD, HOLY SPIRIT, and WORD, inseparable, create all things.

This is reflected in human reality, since humans were created in the image and likeness of GOD.

A human separated from the spirit/breath will expire (exit spirit).

A human is accountable and responsible for the use of spirit/breath in conjunction with food, for their thoughts and words.

A human can be inspired (spirit within) to do great things, speeches, songs, and actions.

A human can use the spirit and think evil things.
A human can use the spirit and think good things.
Aspirations are good visions and plans.
Aspire (vision using a spirit for good).


The Word Became Flesh

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understooda it.

6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.b

10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,c nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,d who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’” 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,e,f who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.


[edit on 12-12-2009 by fmcanarney]

Originally posted by LDragonFire
This too me is incorrect and a direct violation of the first commandment.

This is a direct violation of the first commandment. A contradiction.

1 Peter 2:8 and, “a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” For they stumble at the word

The bible is not that difficult to understand if given the understanding. We have said the only tough questions are the ones you don't know the answer to. The reason there is so much confusion is because people who claim to be looking for the truth are looking for what they want to hear not for the truth. The scriptures say they would rather believe a lie than the truth. Why is this? Is it because they don't like the truth? If a person is obedient to God he says he will give them understanding. Because of disobedience, however, they stumble on the word. Makes perfectly good sense. It is a common everyday practice within humanity in many ways. for example if you show up to work and your employer tells you what they expect out of you that day and then you don't do it, could you expect to be out of a job? Or would you expect them to give you a promotion along with increased salary and benefits, as well as share with you their confidential operating information. It is obvious what most people would choose to have but fact is fact. God says if you ask he will give freely however he also says not everyone who calls him Lord, Lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven but only those who obey his father.

If you are or were a Christian you probably follow(ed) after jesus and his teachings. However, there is no truth in him or what he teaches. It is impossible to receive any understanding of the scriptures from him. He doesn't have any understanding of the truth. Matthew 24:5 For many will come in my name, saying, I am the Messiah... Acts 7:48 However, the Most High doesn’t dwell in temples made with hands, 2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light. 11:15 It is no great thing therefore if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. We were all led astray because jesus is actually tsirhc-itna eht (if you turn things back the way they should be you will see it for what it really is) It seems even Atheists have gotten dooped into believing the Christian interpretations of the bible are accurate.

[edit on 14-12-2009 by The Riley Family]

Ludicrous...you said it yourself

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 [KJV]


He gave His son...Son of God...not God...there is only ONE God....

I realllllly don't understand why people get this confused. Not once does Jesus call himself God. He only mentions that they are together, in spirit...in mind....

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


Though I agree with you on your assessment of Jesus being the Son of God and not God Himself, I do have to correct you with saying that Jesus never once referred to Himself as God. Countless times in the New Testament we see Jesus explaining how He was Jehovah (YHWH) of the Old Testament. This same Jehovah (YHWH) which is depicted as LORD in all caps in the KJV and NKJV bibles was the same God worshipped by the Israelites.

We do find, however, that Jesus came to REVEAL the Father.... someone unknown to the Jews in the New Testament. Does this mean we have two Gods in play? More or less, this is the case but a careful study on the term "God" and what it means can explain how it remains "monotheistic" in nature. "God" as translated from the hebrew word "El" is a title.... not the name of a diety. There are many variations of the hebrew word "el" such as the plural form of "elohim" or the singular form of "eloha". The word "Elohim" is unique in the book of Genesis because it's presented as a uniplural word. A plural form of God used in a singular sense. Much like the "United States of America" is ONE country with MANY states.

Now that we have established what El and it's various forms are, let's concentrate more on the uniplural form of Elohim.

"In the beginning, God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth) Genesis 1:1.

The next portion consists of "And God (Elohim) said, "Let there be...."

Verse 26 is where the plurality of Elohim is used.

"Then God (Elohim) said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;

So God is used as either someone talking to himself or someone talking to another person who is present and working with him.

I explain many times on ATS how "Elohim" refers to the the "Family of God" or the "Godhead" which currently consist of the Father and the Son but will include the saints (married into the family as the bride of Christ) and the people of the 2nd resurrection who repent as the adopted children (inheriters of the promise of Abraham) of God. So Jesus is the first of the Children of God (the family) to be resurrected. Then the saints of the first resurrection will act as a wife to Christ thus becoming inheritors through a marriage feast. Then the 2nd resurrection occurs after 1000 years of peace on earth giving humanity as a whole the chance to be adopted into the family.

We have:
the Father of God
the Son of God
the future Children of God

God = The Family.

The USA is a great example of how to explain it better.

The USA = God.
Washington D.C. = The Father
The President (Government) = The Son
The States = The children of God.

In the whole "children of God" category, there are actually 2 categories. We have the 1st resurrection "Saints" who are married into the family and are to help govern the earth with Christ for 1000 years.

So, if the Saints are members of government, here's a better explanation of the USA metaphore.

The USA = God.
Washington D.C. = The Father
The President = The Son
Congress/Government = The Saints
The States = The Children of God.

Either way, they are all the inner-workings of One God (Family). Does that make sense to you at all?

reply to post by Locoman8


Mixing politics and religion will confuse yourself even more.

God is present in three components.

God the Father.
God the Son, Word.
God the Holy Spirit.
Three persons in one being.
It is a mystery which we with finite minds cannot and will not comprehend.
To simplify it is to deny the mystery, which takes faith to believe.
The word incarnate is also a mystery, faith again comes in to play.




[edit on 14-12-2009 by fmcanarney]

Originally posted by fmcanarney
reply to post by Locoman8

 

Mixing politics and religion will confuse yourself even more.

God is present in three components.

God the Father.
God the Son, Word.
God the Holy Spirit.
Three persons in one being.
It is a mystery which we with finite minds cannot and will not comprehend.
To simplify it is to deny the mystery, which takes faith to believe.
The word incarnate is also a mystery, faith again comes in to play.




[edit on 14-12-2009 by fmcanarney]

You obviously missed the part where I said the actual doctrine of the trinity wasn't established until the 4th century. You also obviously didn't read the part where I said the bible makes no mention of the synopsis you claim as a "trinity" or "triune being". Maybe it's so hard to grasp because man has twisted scripture and turned what is truely said into pure manmade doctrine and not scriptural doctrine.

Examples of this are the manmade doctrines of:

The trinity
Hell
Heaven
What happens when you die
Old Testament Laws
The Sabbath
Holy Days
Monotheism
The Rapture

...Just to name a few. I'd explain them all but I'm tired and have to get to bed.

[edit on 12/14/2009 by Locoman8]

reply to post by Locoman8


I understand the workings of One God...I just try to stay away from explaining the whole thing because it is indeed a tedious job.

The simple fact of the matter is that Jesus doesn't directly say he is God. Sure, it's implied in many verses. Implications and literal translations are two completely different things mind-you.

I find that it gets too complicated trying to explain how 3=1. That is why I prefer to explain it the way that I do.

Respectfully
A2D

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


And you are smart to stay away fromm explaining that. Keep on thinking and knowing the Father and Jesus are two separate beings. Nevermind the whole "Holy Spirit" side of things in which I explain the Holy Spirit to be a power and not a person of a trinity.

Also there is the instance in the gospels where Thomas says, "My Lord and my God!" after seeing Jesus resurrected. It is true though, He never called Himself a God.

The Bible was written over the period of 1600-1700 years.
Written by 44 men inspired by God. Inspired (spirit within) by the Holy Spirit which emanates one in being with the Father.
There are 2500 prophesies in the Bible.
2000 of which have been fulfilled.
600 of the prophesies were about "GOD" becoming man.
The Immaculate conception occured via Holy Spirit.
Just the most important five about the birth of Jeses being fulfilled by one being has the odds of happening at the probability of 1 x 10 with two thousand zeroes as the exponent.

How do you choose to be born of a virgin. Choose the town. Choose the part of the country. Choose to be not in the hundreds of first born male children murdered. Choose how you will die. Choose that the officers will throw dice for your clothes. Choose to not have your legs broken. Choose to be hung between two criminals.

See the odds begin to stack up.

When God inspired the prophets it was God telling the believers in the world that He was sending his only begotten son to earth to live the life of a human, though sinless.


ROMAN CATHOLIC



[edit on 15-12-2009 by fmcanarney]