A contradiction in the bible, page 35

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A contradiction in the bible << 32 33 34 35 >>

reply posted on 25-10-2009 @ 06:35 PM by LDragonFire
Thanks for the replies, and John Matrix I do like the way you described it but it is still my opinion that Jesus Christ is From God as in offspring and that apart of God is apart of him and that the teaching/belief in the trinity could be dangerous to your soul and everlasting life. The way it's been described makes the Temptation of Christ seem foolish, I mean what was the point, if they are one satan would know this and it would seem impossible for one part to sin or to rebel against the other. Just for the record: Im not atheist, and I feel man/the church has corrupted the bible and it's teaching, and this could jeopardize your immortal soul buy worshiping 3 gods instead of 1 God. I wanna hear opinions not just scripture quotes, its not in the bible, and we can quote and re quote back and forth and this in itself is a contradiction.
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reply posted on 26-10-2009 @ 03:32 PM by oliveoil
Originally posted by miriam0566 Originally posted by Moosemose 1. The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible. It is a technical theological word coined in the fourth century A.D. to describe a theological concept. The word Trinity is not found in the bible but Paul clearly states that the father, the word (also used to describe Jesus) and the holy ghost are one. 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. Originally posted by miriam0566except jesus is not equal to god. said so himself. nor is he eternal, least 2 scripture point to a creation of jesus. Where does the bible say this? Jesus was not created. If you are referring to Colossians 1:15 and Rev 3:14, You must have your translation and interp of these two verses of the bible mixed up. Colossians 1:15 it says, 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; (first created being of God) Now listen closely: The word First created in Greek (which the NT was written) means "protoktioti" If Paul meant that Jesus was the first created he would have used this word. ( protoktioti ) He did not. Instead he uses another word,"prototokos" Paul is referring to the Jewish use of the word "First Born" which means not only first born but it is also used as a title of sovereignty and pre-eminence an example of this would be in Psalm 89:27 god says of David " I shall make him my first born, The highest of the kings of the earth. Is David the first born of Jesse? no he was not. The words first born here mean that David is pre-eminent or sovereign of all the kings of the earth. Colossians 1:18 backs this up. Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;( referring to Jesus) The Greek word for beginning is "arche" it means "origin or source" or "ruler" but not FIRST CREATED! In Rev 21:6 Jehovah calls himself the beginning. Does this mean that Jehovah was created? NO! Your use of the word beginning is incorrect.
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reply posted on 28-10-2009 @ 01:06 AM by Locoman8
reply to post by oliveoil I gave you a star, not because of your false trinity explanation, but because you explained the falseness of Jesus being "created" by God the Father to miriam. Two little pieces of scripture with the words "beginning" or "firstborn" are not proof enough for me, especially since the greek words used bury the argument and further prove the pre-creation existence of Jesus, who was the Word of God and one of two in the "Elohim" or "family of God", not trinity.
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reply posted on 28-10-2009 @ 01:14 AM by Locoman8
reply to post by LDragonFire You want my personal opinion? Monotheism is not what people are thinking. Belief in one God (person) is what most people get out of monotheism. My belief in the "family of God" (Elohim) would explain monotheism as in the sense of ONE GOD (ELOHIM) FAMILY. God the Father is the head of the Family and the Son is the inheriter of the Family. The soon-to-be resurrected saints will be married into the family and become God (Elohim) themselves. Those to be resurrected 1000 years later at the White Throne Judgement, if accept God in His presence, will be adopted into the Family and become God (Elohim) themselves. The Father is the Head Elohim and the Son is the eldest Elohim. My beliefs. Decent explanation of why there was plurality in Genesis with Elohim and "Us". Elohim was the Father and Word (Jesus) in Genesis 1. Jesus was creator (builder, carpenter) while the Father was the creator (architect, mastermind) of all creation.
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reply posted on 28-10-2009 @ 09:19 AM by oliveoil
Originally posted by Locoman8 reply to post by oliveoil I gave you a star, not because of your false trinity explanation, but because you explained the falseness of Jesus being "created" by God the Father to miriam. Two little pieces of scripture with the words "beginning" or "firstborn" are not proof enough for me, especially since the greek words used bury the argument and further prove the pre-creation existence of Jesus, who was the Word of God and one of two in the "Elohim" or "family of God", not trinity. I was not trying to prove my case for the Trinity when I quoted Colossians 1:15 and Rev 21:6 I could have done that by simply showing her many,many verses indicating that God the father is deity,Jesus is deity,and the Holy Ghost is deity. 1 John 5:7 confirms this. What I was trying to do was show Miriam that the only two scriptures that she could possibly use in her defence against the Trinity ( Col 1:15 Rev 21:6) Were very weak. These two verses imply that Jesus was not created, therefore making him a deity, equal to YHWH ETERNAL !! and since there can only be one true god , hence the word Trinity.
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reply posted on 28-10-2009 @ 03:38 PM by miriam0566
Originally posted by Locoman8 Two little pieces of scripture with the words "beginning" or "firstborn" are not proof enough for me, especially since the greek words used bury the argument and further prove the pre-creation existence of Jesus, who was the Word of God and one of two in the "Elohim" or "family of God", not trinity. two little pieces that suggest jesus was created (scripture in revelation cannot simply be explained away) vs. zero saying he is eternal. even john 1:1 does not conflict with the idea that jesus is created. it simply places his birth before anything else. let the bible speak for itself.
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reply posted on 28-10-2009 @ 04:04 PM by miriam0566
Originally posted by oliveoil I could have done that by simply showing her many,many verses indicating that God the father is deity,Jesus is deity,and the Holy Ghost is deity. 1 John 5:7 confirms this. 7,8 - For there are three that testify:the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. im sorry, how does this scripture show the trinity? oh right, your using the scripture that was added after the 8th century What I was trying to do was show Miriam that the only two scriptures that she could possibly use in her defence against the Trinity ( Col 1:15 Rev 21:6) Were very weak. These two verses imply that Jesus was not created, therefore making him a deity, equal to YHWH ETERNAL !! and since there can only be one true god , hence the word Trinity. lol. i actually found this comment funny. first, i wasnt using these verses to disprove the trinity. they are verses that show that jesus was created. how you think they imply that he wasnt is an amazing leap of logic. you want to talk about the trinity and how jesus is equal to god? john 5:[15] The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole. [16] And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. [17] But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. [18] Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. ok, i think its safe to say that you agree with what the jews were accusing him. you think jesus is equal to god. if you are right, jesus would confirm this no? [19] Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. jesus doesnt confirm it. if fact he says the opposite. he says that he does what he sees the father doing, not what he wills. [20] For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. so the father teaches the son. "shows" him. if jesus was GOD and thereby equal to him, why would GOD need to show anything to him? they would be the same person! [21] For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. [22] For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: how can jesusGODthing judge no man and yet commit to himself the job of judging all? [23] That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. clearly talking about 2 people. how could god "send" himself? [24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. [25] Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. "sent me" [26] For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; [27] And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. "given to the son", "given him" [30] I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. how can jesus "seek not" his own will, but the "will of the father" if they are the same person?!?!?! they cant! that because jesus is not claiming to be GOD. here is the point: [31] If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. the bible says to let every matter be settled by the testimony of 2 or more witnesses. jesus is saying that his testimony is not enough. [36] But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. [37] And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. he refers to GOD as a witness. so jesus cannot use his own testimony, but can use his father's [39] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. jesus then uses the scriptures as his second witness. jesus himself, when given the allegation of equality to god refutes the claim. he then refers to his father as a separate witness, something that is IMPOSSIBLE if he was in fact god. try, please i beg you, try to explain this chapter away. i would love to see how the trinity could possible fit into any of this chapter
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reply posted on 28-10-2009 @ 04:54 PM by bargoose
The trinity of Godhead isn't hard to grasp. In hinduism for example, Krsna, or God expands himself into Brahma, the creative principle, Visnu the maintainer, and siva the destroyer who will annihalate the material creation at the close of the great cycle
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reply posted on 28-10-2009 @ 05:26 PM by spy66
reply to post by miriam0566 Hi miriam and welcome back I have a question for you concerning Jesus. I have been told that Jesus is actually a Angel that God sent to earth. Michael i thing it was. I think its what a Jehovah witness told me. What can yo tell me about that? Edit: for mistakes. [edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]
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reply posted on 28-10-2009 @ 08:00 PM by Locoman8
reply to post by miriam0566 zero explaining Him being eternal only if you believe He was not Jehovah. I've given plenty of scripture that shows that He claimed to be Jehovah. Once again, agree to disagree on this one.
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reply posted on 30-10-2009 @ 08:20 AM by oliveoil
reply to post by miriam0566 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. im sorry, how does this scripture show the trinity?: Father, Word, Holy Spirit = 3 = Trinity oh right, your using the scripture that was added after the 8th century: Yes I am. But the Comma was added from the same book it came from.I believe it was a marginal note that Jerome left out when he translated the Vulgate as their are plenty of referrences made prior to the eighth century in regards to the Comma. What century was the NWT released ? first, i wasnt using these verses to disprove the trinity. they are verses that show that jesus was created.: As I have already shown you how we already established the fact that Jesus was not created. therefore he must be a true god. and since we only believe in one true god, this creates a conflict. Hence Trinity.Conflict resolved. how you think they imply that he wasnt is an amazing leap of logic.: I don't understand? you want to talk about the trinity and how jesus is equal to god?: I would first like to establish the fact that Jesus is deity.As this strenghens the case for the trinity. ok, i think its safe to say that you agree with what the jews were accusing him. you think jesus is equal to god. if you are right, jesus would confirm this no?: Jesus did confirm this by preforming a miracle John5:8 jesus doesnt confirm it. if fact he says the opposite. he says that he does what he sees the father doing, not what he wills.: As I said, John 5:8 confirms this. so the father teaches the son. "shows" him. if jesus was GOD and thereby equal to him, why would GOD need to show anything to him? they would be the same person!: They are the same however Jesus is God in the flesh. a man. The Father is working miracles through this man, Jesus, Who is God in the flesh. how can jesusGODthing judge no man and yet commit to himself the job of judging all?: God the Father through God the son, all men will be judged. clearly talking about 2 people. how could god "send" himself?: God the father sends God the son. "sent me": whats the question? "given to the son", "given him: your going in circles how can jesus "seek not" his own will, but the "will of the father" if they are the same person?!?!?! God the father is not a person, God the son is they cant! that because jesus is not claiming to be GOD.: Jesus is right not to go as far as to claim he is God in front of the jews. His actions are speaking for him here is the point: ok the bible says to let every matter be settled by the testimony of 2 or more witnesses. jesus is saying that his testimony is not enough.: Jonh the babtist? God the Father ? he refers to GOD as a witness.: Yes so jesus cannot use his own testimony, but can use his father's: ok jesus then uses the scriptures as his second witness.: I didnt quite get that but ok . jesus himself, when given the allegation of equality to god refutes the claim. he then refers to his father as a separate witness, something that is IMPOSSIBLE if he was in fact god.: Jesus is God the son .He is the spirit in the flesh. try, please i beg you, try to explain this chapter away. i would love to see how the trinity could possible fit into any of this chapter: The trinity consists of three. The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost This chapter only speaks of two. The Father and the Son. Although Jesus does not come right out and say he is god,(they would have killed him right there) through his actions (miracles) that's exactly what he is doing.
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