Thanks for the replies, and John Matrix I do like the way you described it but it is still my opinion that Jesus Christ is From God as in offspring and that apart of God is apart of him and that the teaching/belief in the trinity could be dangerous to your soul and everlasting life.

The way it's been described makes the Temptation of Christ seem foolish, I mean what was the point, if they are one satan would know this and it would seem impossible for one part to sin or to rebel against the other.

Just for the record: Im not atheist, and I feel man/the church has corrupted the bible and it's teaching, and this could jeopardize your immortal soul buy worshiping 3 gods instead of 1 God.

I wanna hear opinions not just scripture quotes, its not in the bible, and we can quote and re quote back and forth and this in itself is a contradiction.

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Moosemose

1. The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible. It is a technical
theological word coined in the fourth century A.D. to describe a theological
concept.

The word Trinity is not found in the bible but Paul clearly states that the father, the word (also used to describe Jesus) and the holy ghost are one.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Originally posted by miriam0566except jesus is not equal to god. said so himself. nor is he eternal, least 2 scripture point to a creation of jesus.

Where does the bible say this?
Jesus was not created. If you are referring to Colossians 1:15 and Rev 3:14, You must have your translation and interp of these two verses of the bible mixed up.

Colossians 1:15 it says,

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

(first created being of God)

Now listen closely: The word First created in Greek (which the NT was written) means "protoktioti"

If Paul meant that Jesus was the first created he would have used this word. ( protoktioti ) He did not. Instead he uses another word,"prototokos"

Paul is referring to the Jewish use of the word "First Born" which means not only first born but it is also used as a title of sovereignty and pre-eminence

an example of this would be in Psalm 89:27 god says of David " I shall make him my first born, The highest of the kings of the earth.
Is David the first born of Jesse? no he was not.

The words first born here mean that David is pre-eminent or sovereign of all the kings of the earth.

Colossians 1:18 backs this up.

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;( referring to Jesus)

The Greek word for beginning is "arche"
it means "origin or source" or "ruler" but not FIRST CREATED!

In Rev 21:6 Jehovah calls himself the beginning. Does this mean that Jehovah was created? NO!
Your use of the word beginning is incorrect.

Originally posted by Locoman8
Two little pieces of scripture with the words "beginning" or "firstborn" are not proof enough for me, especially since the greek words used bury the argument and further prove the pre-creation existence of Jesus, who was the Word of God and one of two in the "Elohim" or "family of God", not trinity.

two little pieces that suggest jesus was created (scripture in revelation cannot simply be explained away) vs. zero saying he is eternal.

even john 1:1 does not conflict with the idea that jesus is created. it simply places his birth before anything else.

let the bible speak for itself.

Originally posted by oliveoil
I could have done that by simply showing her many,many verses indicating that God the father is deity,Jesus is deity,and the Holy Ghost is deity.

1 John 5:7 confirms this.

7,8 - For there are three that testify:the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

im sorry, how does this scripture show the trinity?

oh right, your using the scripture that was added after the 8th century

What I was trying to do was show Miriam that the only two scriptures that she could possibly use in her defence against the Trinity ( Col 1:15 Rev 21:6)
Were very weak.

These two verses imply that Jesus was not created,

therefore making him a deity, equal to YHWH ETERNAL !!

and since there can only be one true god , hence the word Trinity.

lol. i actually found this comment funny.

first, i wasnt using these verses to disprove the trinity. they are verses that show that jesus was created.

how you think they imply that he wasnt is an amazing leap of logic.

you want to talk about the trinity and how jesus is equal to god?

john 5:[15] The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
[16] And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
[17] But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
[18] Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

ok, i think its safe to say that you agree with what the jews were accusing him. you think jesus is equal to god. if you are right, jesus would confirm this no?

[19] Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

jesus doesnt confirm it. if fact he says the opposite. he says that he does what he sees the father doing, not what he wills.

[20] For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

so the father teaches the son. "shows" him. if jesus was GOD and thereby equal to him, why would GOD need to show anything to him? they would be the same person!

[21] For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
[22] For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

how can jesusGODthing judge no man and yet commit to himself the job of judging all?

[23] That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

clearly talking about 2 people. how could god "send" himself?

[24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
[25] Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

"sent me"

[26] For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
[27] And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

"given to the son", "given him"

[30] I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

how can jesus "seek not" his own will, but the "will of the father" if they are the same person?!?!?!
they cant! that because jesus is not claiming to be GOD.

here is the point:

[31] If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

the bible says to let every matter be settled by the testimony of 2 or more witnesses. jesus is saying that his testimony is not enough.

[36] But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
[37] And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

he refers to GOD as a witness.

so jesus cannot use his own testimony, but can use his father's

[39] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

jesus then uses the scriptures as his second witness.

jesus himself, when given the allegation of equality to god refutes the claim. he then refers to his father as a separate witness, something that is IMPOSSIBLE if he was in fact god.

try, please i beg you, try to explain this chapter away. i would love to see how the trinity could possible fit into any of this chapter

The trinity of Godhead isn't hard to grasp. In hinduism for example, Krsna, or God expands himself into Brahma, the creative principle, Visnu the maintainer, and siva the destroyer who will annihalate the material creation at the close of the great cycle

Imagine this scene if you will humor m for a while.

Before creation, you have a position of observer.

You are observing God, He is alone and is stationary.

God begins to think. You still observe Him as motionless and stationary.

God thinks that he will initiate creation. (light, universe, animals, etc.)

God inhales a breath, (same as spirit), and because it is God it is a HOLY BREATH a HOLY SPIRIT.

God formulates the WORDS which cause creation.

God is inseparable from His SPIRIT and His WORD.

Thence you observe, (hear, see) the GOD, HOLY SPIRIT, and WORD, inseparable, create all things.

This is reflected in human reality, since humans were created in the image and likeness of GOD.

A human separated from the spirit/breath will expire (exit spirit).

A human is accountable and responsible for the use of spirit/breath in conjunction with food, for their thoughts and words.

A human can be inspired (spirit within) to do great things, speeches, songs, and actions.

A human can use the spirit and think evil things.
A human can use the spirit and think good things.
Aspirations are good visions and plans.
Aspire (vision using a spirit for good).


The Word Became Flesh

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understooda it.

6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.b

10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,c nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,d who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’” 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,e,f who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.


[edit on 12-12-2009 by fmcanarney]

Ludicrous...you said it yourself

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 {KJV}


He gave His son...Son of God...not God...there is only ONE God....

I realllllly don't understand why people get this confused. Not once does Jesus call himself God. He only mentions that they are together, in spirit...in mind....

The Bible was written over the period of 1600-1700 years.
Written by 44 men inspired by God. Inspired (spirit within) by the Holy Spirit which emanates one in being with the Father.
There are 2500 prophesies in the Bible.
2000 of which have been fulfilled.
600 of the prophesies were about "GOD" becoming man.
The Immaculate conception occured via Holy Spirit.
Just the most important five about the birth of Jeses being fulfilled by one being has the odds of happening at the probability of 1 x 10 with two thousand zeroes as the exponent.

How do you choose to be born of a virgin. Choose the town. Choose the part of the country. Choose to be not in the hundreds of first born male children murdered. Choose how you will die. Choose that the officers will throw dice for your clothes. Choose to not have your legs broken. Choose to be hung between two criminals.

See the odds begin to stack up.

When God inspired the prophets it was God telling the believers in the world that He was sending his only begotten son to earth to live the life of a human, though sinless.


ROMAN CATHOLIC



[edit on 15-12-2009 by fmcanarney]