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A contradiction in the bible

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posted on Jul, 26 2009 @ 11:12 PM
reply to post by LDragonFire

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth."

Elohim is the Hebrew word for God. It is a plural word. The 'im' ending is like 's' for English.

Drop down to verse 26. "And Elohim said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let THEM have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

Clearly, God is discussing this 'within Himself'. Angels are not Creators, so He is not speaking to them (no matter what your rabbi may say.)

Patrick explained to the Irish this view of God by plucking a shamrock. We call one shamrock "a" shamrock, even though it has 3 leaflets.

I have tended to like the analogy of water. At or below 32 degrees F it is a solid. Above that it is a liquid until it reaches 212 F where it becomes a gas (steam). If water could be a SOLID, LIQUID, and STEAM all at the same instant, then you would have a slight idea of the Trinity.

I hope this helps, and that you were sincere in your comments.

posted on Jul, 27 2009 @ 08:47 AM

Originally posted by Moosemose
1. The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible. It is a technical
theological word coined in the fourth century A.D. to describe a theological

makes one wonder how it became a cornerstone of christian belief

2. The doctrine of the trinity recognizes God as being one in essence
but three persons who possess equal, perfect, eternal and infinite identical

except jesus is not equal to god. said so himself. nor is he eternal, least 2 scripture point to a creation of jesus.

5. There is one true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are
three coequal, coeternal persons. They are the same in substance or
essence, but distinct in subsistence or continuing in existence.

most of these are just repeating the same thing over and over again.

6. The trinity is a revealed doctrine. It embodies truth never
discovered; hence, it is undiscoverable by natural reason.

meaning its BS. something not in the bible. teaching of man, expressions of demons.

7. Since each person of the Trinity has the same essence, God is
described as one. But they are different as persons.

back to repeating the same mantra

9. The word "trinity" was first used by Tertullian in the second
century to designate a Biblical doctrine. The doctrine of the trinity was
confirmed by the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325. After much controversy,
including the heresy of Arius, Sabellius, and Paul of Samosata, they finally
came to a correct understanding of the doctrine.

the council of nicea didnt agree on a trinity. they only agree that jesus and god were made of the same stuff. one entity. and most agree begrudgingly

11. When divine essence is the subject, God is said to be one. When
divine persons are the subject, distinction is made between the Father, the
Son, and the Holy Spirit.

so this is how "god" could be in three places at once during jesus' baptism that he didnt need to do?

12. For this reason we have different Hebrew names for God. The plural
noun Elohim implies more than one person in the Godhead. The singular noun
JHWH (Adonai, Jahweh, or Jehovah) is used to distinguish between the
persons. Elohim emphasizes the one essence of God. Jehovah emphasizes one
person in the Trinity, usually God the Son.

wrong, wrong, wrong.

in hebrew, superlative forms are written in plural. Elohym is describing a quintessential god. the ultimate god.

the proof lies in the fact that Elohym is used with pronouns in the singular form. if it was infact speaking of a trinity, the rest of the context would have to be plural too.

B. Scripture Verification.
1. The plural pronoun for God, Elohim, is used in Gen 1:26, 3:22, "Let
us make man," and in Isa 6:8, "Whom shall I send and who will go for us?"

rabbi's would laugh at you for making this assertion

2. Ps 110:1, "The Lord [God the Father] said to my [David's] Lord [God
the Son]."

how does JEHOVAH (what is in the original trans.) saying something to jesus, prove the trinity?

it actually disproves it since JEHOVAH is doing something for JESUS....

3. The distinction is delineated in Ps 2:7, "I will announce the
decree of the Lord [God the Father]. He said to Me [God the Son], `You are
My Son [deity of Jesus Christ]. This day [day of incarnation] I have
begotten You.'" This is quoted three times in the New Testament, in Acts
13:33, Heb 1:5, and Heb 5:5.

again you are hurting your case.

ps 2: [8] Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

why would god inherit something that is already his?

4. Isa 48:16, "Come near to Me; listen to this. From the first, I
have not spoken in secret. From the time it took place, I was there. And
now the Lord God [God the Father] has sent Me [God the Son], and His Spirit
[God the Holy Spirit]."

why would god "send" himself. clear evidence of jesus' submission to god.

5. Mt 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples [Bible students] of all
nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit." This is a reference to the pre-Canon period of the Church Age in
which water baptism was practiced to illustrate the baptism of the Holy
Spirit by the use of ritual.

"the god of abraham, isaac and jacob." i mentioned 3 people, so i guess they are really one?

6. In Jn 10:30, Jesus said to the crowd, "I and the Father are one."
He was referring to divine essence. The Father and the Son are two distinct
persons in the Godhead, but they have identical essence.

wrong. jesus himself goes on to explain what this oneness is..

john 17: [20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

he makes it apparent that "one" does not mean literally. he uses his oneness with god to describe the oneness of his followers.

if your reasoning was correct, then its not even a trinity but instead a union that ties up millions into one person.

7. Jn 14:16, "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another
Counselor to be with you forever." The next verse explains that the
Counselor is said to be "the Spirit of truth; He abides with you and He will
be in you."

i dont understand why you use scriptures that make a clear division between the three. dont you realise it hurts the case for the trinity?

8. Thomas called Jesus both Lord and God when he saw Him in His
resurrection body. Jn 20:28, "Thomas answered and said to Him, `My Lord, My

and timothy would be correct for jesus is both a lord and a god. but he is not THE lord and THE god.

9. 1 Cor 12:4-6, "There are a variety of spiritual gifts, but the same
Holy Spirit. And there are a variety of ministries [opportunities for
Christian service], but the same Lord [God the Son]. And there are many
different kinds of activities, but the same God [God the Father], who works
all of them in all persons."

again, a distinction

10. 2 Cor 13:14, "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of
God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."

how that counts as prove is amazing.

11. 1 Pet 1:2, "According to the foreknowledge of God [the Father] by
the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ."

distinction being made between the three.

12. Rev 1:4-6, "John, to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to
you and prosperity from Him who is [present state of the glorified Christ at
the right hand of the Father], who has always existed [Jesus Christ as
eternal God prior to the Hypostatic Union], who is to come [Second Advent],
and from the seven spirits before the throne [God the Holy Spirit as the
power system in both Christocentric dispensations], and from Jesus Christ,
the dependable witness, the first formed from the dead, also the ruler of
the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and has liberated us from our
sins by means of His blood, and He has provided for us a royal power as
priests to God, even the Father."

i love how you add stuff to make a point. "who has always existed" is obviously referring to the one sitting on the throne because 3:14 clearly refers to jesus' creation.

"which is to come" is not jesus' second advent but is actually describing god's eternalness in a future way.

"before HIS throne". GOD is the one described of with a throne, not jesus.

your entire "footnote" was fabricated. when you look at the writing for what it is, its not describing jesus.

C. Though one in essence, God is three in persons.
1. In the doctrine of the unity of God, there is only one essence or

then you go back to repeating yourself over and over and over...

2. In the doctrine of the persons of the Godhead, the individuality of
the Father, Son, and Spirit is preserved against the notion that there are
only modes of God. The idea of modes of God is a false doctrine dating back
to the fourth century. It implies that one God has various modes for
various purposes in dealing with man, whether in creation or at salvation.
That is a false doctrine.

yes, unlike the trinity doctrine that started in the 4th century also, that one is ok.

3. God is one, yet in Himself, and from all eternity past, He is three
separate and distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.

nevermind that its a logical paradox and that you are describing god as a freak who is his own father, but its ticking me off that you just keep repeating the same thing over and over.

does it make you feel better to make the post look bigger?

posted on Jul, 27 2009 @ 08:48 AM

4. Argumentation for the trinity begins in Genesis with the use of
plural pronouns for God.
a. Gen 1:26, "Let us make man in our image." Therefore, more
than one person in the Godhead is involved.
b. Gen 3:22, "Then the Lord God said, `Behold, man has become
like one of us, knowing good and evil.'"
c. Isa 6:8, Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, `Whom
shall I [God the Father] send, and who will go for us ?'"

none of those scripture prove a godhead, all they prove is that god was talking to someone (or people (plural) spiritual.

gen 1:26 god is talking to jesus. does this mean they are the same person? no.
- the fact they are talking. they are not one but instead distinct.
- jesus was made in god's image, so "our image" is appropriate.
- jesus was the "firstborn of all creation", so he would have been there being the first created thing.
- jesus is god's "masterworker", so jesus had a part in creation.

this scripture does nothing to prove jesus' duality with god. instead it shows us a conversation between the 2

gen 3:22- same argument as 1:26

isa 6:8 - god is referring to the angelic congregation. "us" representing the spirit realm.

5. When a distinction is made between the persons of the Trinity, it
refers to a specific activity of specific persons in the Godhead.
a. 1 Thes 1:2-3, "We give thanks to God [God the Father] always
for you, making mention of you in our prayers, constantly bearing in mind
your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord
Jesus Christ in the presence of God our Father." So distinction is made
between the Father and Son. They have identical essence, but they are two
separate and distinct persons.

there is no mention of "identical essence". the only scripture you have to back that up is john 10:30, and jesus himself debunks that for you.

1 thess 1:2-3 is describing 3 distinct things because they ARE 3 distinct things.

same goes for 1 Pet 1:2, Tit 3:5, Tit 3:6, and 2 Tim 1:13-14

6. However, Jesus Christ is the only visible member of the Trinity, Jn
1:18, 6:46; 1 Tim 3:16; 1 Jn 4:12.

so... we've seen god, but we havent because "no made has seen god"?

D. The Distinctive Function of the Trinity.

2. All three members of the Trinity provided salvation.
a. God the Father planned salvation according to Isa 14:27; Jn
4:34, 5:17, 12:44; 1 Cor 8:6; Eph 3:11.
b. God the Son executed salvation on the cross, Jn 4:34, 5:17;
1 Pet 2:24, 3:18; Rom 5:8; Heb 10:7.
c. God the Holy Spirit reveals the message of salvation. Under
the doctrine of common grace, He makes the Gospel perspicuous, Jn 16:8-11.

or, they were 3 different things working in unity to one goal.

3. Each person of the Trinity indwells the body of every Church Age
believer. Distinction is made between them.
a. The indwelling of God the Father is found in Jn 14:23; Eph
4:6; 2 Jn 9.
b. God the Son indwells us according to Jn 14:20, 17:22-23; Rom
8:10; 2 Cor 13:5; Gal 2:20; Col 1:27; 1 Jn 2:24.
c. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is found in Rom 8:11; 1 Cor
3:16, 6:19-20; 2 Cor 6:16.
d. Only in this unique Church Age does God the Father, God the
Son, and God the Holy Spirit indwell us.

maybe you should do more research as to what "dwelling in" a person actually means.

E. Though three in persons, God is one in essence.
1. There is one God, yet three who possess every attribute of deity
equally, perfectly, and eternally.
2. There is a unity of essence and a plurality of persons belonging to
the same divine being.
3. The persons of the Godhead are not separate and independent beings,
such as Peter, James, and John; but three persons with identical essence
eternally and inseparably united as one in essence.
4. They are thr

i guess this is another quick affirmation to help convince you that this is truth?

posted on Jul, 27 2009 @ 09:29 PM
reply to post by Moosemose

The whole idea of the Godhead is misunderstood and falsely indoctrinated as the "trinity". The Godhead is another way of saying "Family of God." The Father is the head of the family. The eldest Son (Jesus Christ) is at the right hand of the Father and inherits the Father's posessions. The "children" of God complete the Godhead. Jesus is UNDER God just as we are under God. The Holy Spirit is not a god. It is the power of God used to draw us closer to Him. Your explanation of the trinity is overly-confusing and that's what catholics like to do..... confuse the masses with complex interpretations and "hidden" (false) truths to convince the masses they are right. I trust no part of christian history that involves the "catholic councils" such as the Council of Nicea or Council of Laodecia. It is false christianity at its worst.

I apologize if you are catholic and I offend you. I am not speaking of individual catholics but more about the "establishment" of the RCC.

posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 06:48 PM
What about the unpointed paleoHebrew of Numbers 21:7 (whether you choose to regard the Masoretic pointed version of AD 960 or the Sammaritan Pentateuch of BC 420 or the Vorlage Hebrew underlay to the Greek Old Testament (LXX), or even Aquila or Theodotion's Greek version of this passage--or any of the contradictory versions of the Torah copies found lying side by side in Caves 1 and 4 at Qumran of the Dead Sea):

“And it came to pass that YHWH sent among the sons of Yisro’el firey snakes. And the sons of Yisro’el came up to Mosheh and began to say to him, "Behold, we have sinned when we murmured against YHWH and against you: therefore beseech YHWH to remove these burning-serpents from before our faces." So Mosheh began to pray to YHWH on behalf of the sons of Yisro’el.
And YHWH said to Mosheh, "Fashion a Bronze Serpent Idol and mount it upon a pole; and when anyone of the sons of Yisro’el should be bitten by them, he may gaze upon it and regard it that he might live." So Moses made a bronze snake-idol and mounted it upon pole. Then when any of the sons of Yisro’eel was bitten by one of the firey serpents, and had regarded the Bronze Snake Idol, that man survived. “

Sounds pretty idolatrous to me. Especially since this story is located near the pericope about murmuring about the wife of Mosheh who was allegedly a Midianite, whose father was a priest of a snake cult. At any rate the Midianite religion involved the worship of snakes on poles, and the fact that Hezekiah still had the Bronze Snake Idol of Mosheh mounted in the Temple of YHWH in Yerushalayim in the 7th century BC (before he ground it down to powder) suggests that all that anti-Idol stuff we read about in the so-called Ten Commandments were probably added at a time much later than the purported time of 'Mosheh" (his name does not mean 'masah' (to draw forth') but rather literally means 'son of' in Egyptian e.g. Ra-Mosheh, son of Amon Ra, etc.)

Either way, I seem to remember a little troublesome gentile ritual incident about the so-called brother of this Mosheh character (=A’aron)? Something about melting down spare earings into a Golden Calf Idol or some such pagan idolatry. And yet the Aaronid priesthood was somehow cultically 'special' or set apart from the other tribes---for dozens of generations to follow !

Maybe these warlike nomadic illiterates couldn’t even read the traditions placed into their mouths in the confusing post-Exilic Torah narratives, with all of its late Hebrew syntax and bad grammar !!!

[edit on 28-7-2009 by Sigismundus]

posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 07:03 PM
reply to post by Sigismundus

The whole point of the firey serpents and the idol was to test the Israelites. Who would refrain from idolatry and die or who would give in and go against God to survive? The golden calf was something the Israelites knew from their time in Egypt. They were worried that Moses would not come down from the mountain and they thought they needed an image to worship God. Idolatry is the extent of worshipping an image. Just because there is an image, doesn't mean it's an idol unless you revere it. God needs no image to be worshipped. Christains who use crosses around their necks to pray with are committing an idolatrous act because they are using an image to assist in prayer. Praying to an image of a "fantasy Christ" with long hair is idolatry as well. Remember, it's the worship of the image that makes it idolatrous.

posted on Jul, 29 2009 @ 12:59 PM
Hi Locoman 8

I'm not quite understanding your point ref: Numbers 21:7 about YHWH commanding the sons of Yisro'el to 'regard' (i.e. burn incense to, or ritually 'worship') some Midianite bronze snake idol on a Pole as any kind of ritual 'testing'.

The pericope in the Torah specifically says 'any of the sons of Yisro'el who were bitten by a firey serpent who shall 'regard' (''pay homage to via burnt sacrifices') the Bronze Snake Idol shall live...' Period.

No testing of anyone. Just a ritual 'magical' spell to follow...or else face certain death by snakebite. Or whatever a Firey Serpent was in those days. I personally never saw one, but there are legends of flying snakes with venom that 'burns' in the area around Midian, near present-day Eritrea.

According to what we can decipher from the mangled unvowelled versions of the Torah that have come down to us, using several technical terms that are no longer understood exactly (e.g. by comapring the (3) Qumran versons, the Sammaritan Pentateuch, the Vorlage to the Greek LXX Septuaginta, the Greek versions of Symmachus, Aquila, Theodotion or any of the the later 'pointed; Hebrew Masoretic texts from 960 CE etc.) this mounting of the Snake Idol on Pole so that the sons of Yisro'el could 'regard' it was a direct command 'from YHWH' (or placed into his mouth by a priest!) to regard/burn incense to/worship a Snake Idol on a Pole, period.

Later, Hezekiah (2 Kings 18:4) thought c. BCE 650 thought that burning incense to (i.e. 'regarding') a snake idol (Mosheh or no Mosheh) was idolatrous (he called the Nahash ('snake') Idol a "Nehushtan", lit. Bronze Thing, and (obviously reading and follwing a much later anti-idolatry ritual law code than the time of Mosheh) crushed the snaky bronzy thingy and its pole thingy into powder.

But the fact remains that this Bronze Snake Idol was physically mounted on a Pole AND INSTALLED in the Temple of Solomon for c.400 years prior to Hezekiah grinding it down, having been in the 'tent of the meeting' prior to Solomon's time for another 200-300 years---which meant that the Snake Idol on a Pole was ritually venerated in preExilic Yisro'el for centuries--despite the fact that the (later?) so-called Ten Commandments Decalogue specifically says 'I am YHWH: You Will Have No other Clan-gods before my Faces', i.e. no graven images in front of or ahead of YHWH.

Nothing whatsoever to do with testing a bunch of illiterate nomads lost in the desert throwing their Urim ve Thummim to find out where to pitch their camp next....only to find themselves going around and around and around and around and...

posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 04:25 AM
reply to post by miriam0566

6. However, Jesus Christ is the only visible member of the Trinity, Jn
1:18, 6:46; 1 Tim 3:16; 1 Jn 4:12.

so... we've seen god, but we havent because "no man has seen god"?
Jesus is God by designation. In his former existence, the who/what that became incarnate and became Jesus, had already been in the position of representing God.
Being that person who came into existence while retaining the identity of that former thing/person, it was allowable for Jesus to receive worship, since he was the officially designated recipient, in his previous existence, of worship/praise/supplications directed towards God.
It is not idolatry to direct your prayers to God through Jesus, any more than it was to direct your prayers to the invisible God through the space between the Cherubs on top of the Ark, in Old Testament times.

[edit on 30-7-2009 by jmdewey60]

posted on Oct, 4 2009 @ 01:06 AM
If you actually read the bible God tells you to obey his son because he put him on this earth for a reason and him,Jesus,and the holy spirit are all one. Read the entire Bible and understand before you post something like this. Jesus Love You.

posted on Oct, 4 2009 @ 10:17 AM
reply to post by gsoulja

Jesus and the Father are one through the Holy Spirit but they each have their own identity. Jesus is not literally the Father in human form. Jesus is Jesus and the Father is the Father. The Holy Spirit links them just as the Holy Spirit links us and God. The Holy Spirit is not God. It is God's power.

posted on Oct, 4 2009 @ 11:39 AM
The words Holy Trinity are not found in scripture. However, one can conclude from scripture three aspects of One and the same God.

1. God the Father = God over us.

He is the Creator and Ruler of the Universe. He is incomprehensible to humans.

2. God the Son = God with us.

Jesus the Saviour and Redeemer, who forgives sins. God's Divine nature and character is made manifest to the world through Christ.

3. God the Holy Spirit = God in us.

The power of God that inspires, regenerates the new life in us, searches all things, bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and unites us as ONE in Spirit with God.

Three distinct aspects and workings of the One God. The Divine nature of God, was made known to us through the Son. The Spirit of God moves us to accept the Son of God and then provides us with the power and will to live according to the Divine nature of God.

I do not limit God to the above explanation....I only gave you the basics.

God is a hyper-dimensional supernatural spirit being that is not subject to any physical laws or our human understanding.

Your proposed contradiction is no excuse to reject the Bible or the past 2000 years of scholarship and research.

To follow after God and Show faith in Him requires one to turn from their old ways and embrace: love; compassion; humility; goodness; kindness; patience; forgiveness. These are the very nature of Christ Himself. Therefore, one turns from himself and follows Christ to the same degree that one embraces the Divine nature.

The Bible is a book to be studied. One does not become an expert physician, lawyer, engineer etc. without studying, as that would have disastrous consequences. Likewise, you cannot become an expert concerning the Bible without years of study. I am not an expert, but I can do the research and weigh the opinions of others.

posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 10:26 AM

Originally posted by John Matrix

The Bible is a book to be studied. One does not become an expert physician, lawyer, engineer etc. without studying, as that would have disastrous consequences. Likewise, you cannot become an expert concerning the Bible without years of study. I am not an expert, but I can do the research and weigh the opinions of others.

i am an engineer by profession and i do come across volumes of engineering books for my references, informations and updates of the latest engineering techniques and developments. The bible? what's to study in this book? The reason karl max came up with the adage "religion is the opium of the people" is because of this "book", the muslims has to "protect" their faith thru Jihad because of this "book" and the trend of how this book relates to other sets of belief seems to be in this manner. it projects nihilism both to those who study it and those who abhor it...the engineering books i came across studied and read presented me ways and means to progress oneself and others around me.. the bible?... look around see for yourself...its really full of contradiction.

posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 10:41 AM
Some of you insist on understanding every single thing about God, the Creator of All. And because you don't understand it all, you reject the whole thing. Me, personally, I would never even attempt to believe I can understand everything about a God who created all this. The makeup of the human body alone is enough to ponder for a lifetime, no one's telling me I evolved from a single cell millions of years ago, no way.

1 Corinthians 13:12

For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known.

There's a lot more I don't understand, than what I do understand. But one day I know I will meet the Being who made it all happen. And His crowning touch was manifested in His Son Jesus when He walked the earth; just as it had been recorded in Genesis, we truly were created in His Image and Likeness.

posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 05:54 PM
reply to post by Redge777

By telling him that he does not understand, you are being judgemental.
Being judgemental upon another human is absolutely AGAINST everything Christianity teaches.
Therefore, YOU do not fully understand this religion you follow, as you are so blatantly breaking these commandments you were given.

posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 05:58 PM
reply to post by Locoman8

Your post was the first, and only time I have ever seen someone clearly explain the Trinity.
For this, I applaud you.

posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 05:59 PM
"God is not the author of confusion."

If that were true, we would not be having this conversation.

posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 07:55 PM
reply to post by PublicDefenseCorp

And the trinity is not a biblical teaching. Just keep that in mind.

posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 08:07 PM
the father is the head of christ
chirst is the body of the father
christ is the head of the church
the people of the church are christ's body.

gen 1:26 God(singular) said "And let US create man to OUR image to OUR likeness.... don't know how it is in torah or qua'ran but thats how it is in KJV

as for the 10 commandments have no God before the lord your God. when Jesus became Christ, The Son of God, then he Was their God. so technically they are not breaking the first commandment, seeing these people don't know the father, they know the son, who is THEIR God... but as Christ said, He had a God, the Father. as for "the word" what is "the word" "the word was God" well the word probably a metaphor for Knowledge

posted on Oct, 7 2009 @ 12:05 AM
The new testament basically wipes out 95% of all the old testament laws. To find one contradiction and act as if it was a monumental find is not all that impressive.

There are commandments not to kill, steal, covet, etc... All are forgiven by faith in Jesus Christ in the new testament.

The message is what is important, not the manor in which it is delivered. The bible can enlighten you if you pay attention.

posted on Oct, 7 2009 @ 12:12 AM
reply to post by Taskism

Actually, the laws of the old testament are magnified through the new testament and faith in Jesus requires the full practice of the commandments with the help of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 5:16-19 explains this very well through the words of Jesus Himself.

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