A contradiction in the bible

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Pappa_Bear

 

The idea is that there seems to be a trinity in the New Testament, just not like what people want to have as a creed.

where?
if its not in the bible, why even try to make it fit?

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

There is not a formalized "Trinity", as in what can be made into a triune god, or a three part godhead, in my opinion, but there are three names given. This becomes important in baptism, where the one who is baptizing will say, "In the name of the Father, and in the name of the Son, and in the name of the Holy Ghost."
Jesus talks to his disciples about the Spirit, as if it is a person in John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. For he will not speak on his own authority, but will speak whatever he hears, and will tell you what is to come.

There seems to be a formula that has to be adhered to when considering conversion to being a Christian, that involves God, and two person besides God, who work with and for God. An advocate and mediator (Jesus), and an intercessor (Spirit).


[edit on 21-7-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Pappa_Bear

 

The idea is that there seems to be a trinity in the New Testament, just not like what people want to have as a creed.

Now that I can agree with, goes back to mans interpretation to fit with a belief system or agenda whichever may be the case.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
There seems to be a formula that has to be adhered to when considering conversion to being a Christian, that involves God, and two person besides God, who work with and for God. An advocate and mediator (Jesus), and an intercessor (Spirit).

putting three names together does not a trinity make. even by the loosest of definitions.

but it is a strong testimony that were are never actually told what the holy spirit's name is. think about it. we are supposed to baptise people in the name of the holy spirit and yet we are never told that name!

it demands further research into what it means to baptize in the name of something like the holy spirit.

obvious the name of god is a no brainer. its who we worship.

jesus is easy too since he is our redeemer. but its through jesus that we see what is meant here. to be baptized in jesus' name is to acknowledge his role in god's purpose for mankind. why do we accept him as savior? because god provided him as a legal way to be saved. we are in effect saying to god that we accept the way that god wants to fix things.

the name of the holy spirit is similar. the original words in both greek and hebrew basically translate to the same thing, "breath". in essence, the holy spirit is the "holy breath" or "breeze".

being baptized in the name of the holy spirit means to acknowledge its role in god's purpose. what role is that?

well consider a sailing boat. a sail boat goes by "wind". the wind provides power to the boat but also direction. god's holy spirit or "active force" or "breath" does something similar. by acting in harmony with that spirit and where it directs us means we acknowledge its role.

this is how we can baptize in the name of something that doesnt have a name.

reply to post by miriam0566


There's a lot of truth to what you are saying. I think the new question is weather or not there is only one baptism (water baptism in this case) and I have to say the water baptism is a symbolic gesture of burying your old sinful self and being raised into a "metaphorically" new spiritual body, also known as being baptised in the name of Jesus Christ. A second baptism takes place... the true baptism of the Holy Spirit. No water involved. The Holy Spirit literally takes over your body and as you said before, the Holy Spirit leads you in your christian life. Only those baptised in the Holy Spirit will be resurrected when Jesus returns (first resurrection) and it is only an extremely small number. To be baptised literally means to be "submerged". In the name of Jesus you are submerged in water (not sprinkled with water as an infant.). In the name of God you are submerged or "overtaken" by the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by Locoman8
I think the new question is weather or not there is only one baptism (water baptism in this case) and I have to say the water baptism is a symbolic gesture of burying your old sinful self and being raised into a "metaphorically" new spiritual body, also known as being baptised in the name of Jesus Christ. A second baptism takes place... the true baptism of the Holy Spirit. No water involved.

well john said something about this.

matt 3:[11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

but does this mean 2 baptisms?

matt 3:[16] And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

it wasnt nessarily 2 separate baptisms. it was more like 1 baptism with holy spirit involved.

mark 16:[16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

again no reference to 2 baptisms. only one

there was hoever a difference between john's baptism and those done AFTer pentecost 33. even while jesus was on earth, the hoy spirit was not being used in others besides jesus. this is why jesus speaked of a helper coming (future).

this is also why baptisms involving holy spirit would not come until later (except in jesus' case)

acts 1:[5] For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

does this mean that the apostles baptism was somehow invalid? not really. baptism was a sign of repentance and of dedication to god. there was no need to do it again. however, baptism had to involve holy spirit which the time from jesus' death to pentecost was slighty awkward for them since holy spirit was not granted them yet.

acts 2:[1] And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
[2] And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
[3] And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
[4] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

the nest verses go on to describe that they went preaching in these new languages to jews that were proselytes born in other countries. they start asking whats going on.

peter explains:
[17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

he goes on, but then he mentions baptism.

[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

notice not 2 baptisims but one.

it is possible that there are 2, i tend to think that one is a by product of the other. one gets baptised with water to symbolize their dedication, and with that dedication they submit to holy spiri, to which then god bestows freely.

the account in acts 19 shows that there was a difference between johns baptism and jesus'. propbably having to do with the fact that with john's baptism, it wasnt in the "name" of jesus and the holy spirit (how could they acknowledge thier roles if they didnt know about it yet?)

Unless I find out differently, I have to think that the baptisms of the Spirit were for those who had been baptized before Pentecost. The extra thing was meant to make up for a deficit they would have had. It was probably something that was applicable to that time frame that the Apostles lived in. Back in the sixties there was this Jesus Movement that went around promoting the idea that normal baptism is not sufficient and there was a need for another baptism and there was an expectation of some sort of outward demonstration of your Spirit baptism by speaking in tongues. This is not something I agree with and am very suspicious of. I have to imagine there is a such thing as an induced babbling that you can get caught up in to satisfy the worked up crowd of people egging you on to some acceptance of whatever strange sort of thing that will come out of you.


[edit on 22-7-2009 by jmdewey60]

The trinity (tri-unity of God) is a difficult concept to explain. This is because we tend to think in three dimensions. It is possible that spiritual beings exist in more than just three dimensions. In our three dimensions, solid objects consist of smaller particles that are in constant motion. I don’t understand how a solid object, say a chair, can hold me above the floor if its particles are in constant motion. Yet, that is what is happening.

Scientist who study quantum physics, have discovered up to ten dimensions. Those who believe in string theory suggest that there are even more dimensions. We live in a three dimensional world (or four if you count space/time.) Most of us have a difficult time trying to imagine anything outside of those three dimensions. Yet, try to draw a three dimensional object. The best we can do is a two dimensional representation of a three dimensional object.

I don’t have to understand the relationship between atoms to sit in my chair. I don’t have to understand quantum mechanics to sit in my chair. I don’t have to understand tri-unity to worship God. I don’t have to read ATS to know that there are people who challenge what I believe because they don’t understand.

Originally posted by darkelf
Scientist who study quantum physics, have discovered up to ten dimensions.

but they arent spatial dimensions. they deal with possibilities and alternate universes

I don’t have to understand tri-unity to worship God. I don’t have to read ATS to know that there are people who challenge what I believe because they don’t understand.

john 17:[3] And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

how can you know something if it is incomprehensible?

reply to post by miriam0566


I guess it's how you look at baptism too. The water baptism is symbolic. Laying of hands happens immediately after in order to be baptised in the Holy Spirit. Some would consider this a single act. Other's such as myself consider it two different things that happen in harmony.

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by miriam0566

 

I guess it's how you look at baptism too. The water baptism is symbolic. Laying of hands happens immediately after in order to be baptised in the Holy Spirit. Some would consider this a single act. Other's such as myself consider it two different things that happen in harmony.

but see thats the thing, the laying of hands is never actually called a "baptism". in fact the practice is also done when appointing responsibility which has nothing to do with baptism but does have to do with holy spirit.

so im not convinced that the laying of hands is a baptism at all

reply to post by miriam0566


But they are part of the same thing. When some of the apostles baptised people in Samaria, John and Peter came and layed hands upon the recently baptised in order to recieve the Holy Spirit. I'll write more on baptism later, I have to go to work now.

reply to post by Locoman8
It says that it was because the people were only baptized in the name of Jesus.
Apparently you do not have a second baptism in water. Instead of doing the whole thing over, they had prayers made for them to receive the Spirit.
Now days we should not have that problem and know to use the invocation of the Spirit during the normal water baptism.



[edit on 22-7-2009 by jmdewey60]

hey there you guys.... we are getting a little off topic discussing baptism.

I will start a thread about this on BTS to discuss in detail.

see you there!!!!!

www.belowtopsecret.com...

[edit on 22-7-2009 by holywar]

This whole thread is like discussing which side of the bed the tooth fairy got out of this morning. While I can understand the OP seeking to debunk god and the bible, theists cannot be forced into a critical examination of their faith, it's something they have to find for themselves.

Originally posted by mithrawept
This whole thread is like discussing which side of the bed the tooth fairy got out of this morning. While I can understand the OP seeking to debunk god and the bible, theists cannot be forced into a critical examination of their faith, it's something they have to find for themselves.

interesting, because I do believe in God and in the Bible, and I happen to agree with the OP.

The Trinity Doctrine is a contradiction, because it's not in the Bible in the first place.

reply to post by holywar


In the spirit of introducing new threads, I introduce one to you in which I created a thread with free-form discussion tied to it. There is no off-topic about it unless you go away from theology and faith. Visit here and join in. I started the thread talking about and shareing christian music, just to lighten the mood. Please take part in this unique thread.

www.belowtopsecret.com...



God bless you all.

Originally posted by mithrawept
This whole thread is like discussing which side of the bed the tooth fairy got out of this morning. While I can understand the OP seeking to debunk god and the bible, theists cannot be forced into a critical examination of their faith, it's something they have to find for themselves.

Hold on I do believe in God and it's my wish to believe in the bible as well, but I fear it has been corrupted by man. The trinity is a major belief in Christianity but I fear there isn't enough in the bible to back this up.

DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY

A. Definition.
1. The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible. It is a technical
theological word coined in the fourth century A.D. to describe a theological
concept.
2. The doctrine of the trinity recognizes God as being one in essence
but three persons who possess equal, perfect, eternal and infinite identical
essence.
3. Therefore, trinity is used to describe three persons in one
Godhead. There is only one divine nature or being.
4. This divine being is tripersonal, involving distinctions between
the Father, Son, and Spirit. These three persons are joint partakers of
exactly the same nature and majesty of God.
5. There is one true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are
three coequal, coeternal persons. They are the same in substance or
essence, but distinct in subsistence or continuing in existence.
6. The trinity is a revealed doctrine. It embodies truth never
discovered; hence, it is undiscoverable by natural reason.
7. Since each person of the Trinity has the same essence, God is
described as one. But they are different as persons.
8. Distinctions are made between the members of the Trinity, as
described in 2 Cor 13:14. "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love
of God [the Father] and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of
you."
9. The word "trinity" was first used by Tertullian in the second
century to designate a Biblical doctrine. The doctrine of the trinity was
confirmed by the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325. After much controversy,
including the heresy of Arius, Sabellius, and Paul of Samosata, they finally
came to a correct understanding of the doctrine.
10. Therefore, the doctrine of the trinity is defined as: God is one
in essence but three coequal, coeternal, and coinfinite persons.
11. When divine essence is the subject, God is said to be one. When
divine persons are the subject, distinction is made between the Father, the
Son, and the Holy Spirit.
12. For this reason we have different Hebrew names for God. The plural
noun Elohim implies more than one person in the Godhead. The singular noun
JHWH (Adonai, Jahweh, or Jehovah) is used to distinguish between the
persons. Elohim emphasizes the one essence of God. Jehovah emphasizes one
person in the Trinity, usually God the Son.



B. Scripture Verification.
1. The plural pronoun for God, Elohim, is used in Gen 1:26, 3:22, "Let
us make man," and in Isa 6:8, "Whom shall I send and who will go for us?"
2. Ps 110:1, "The Lord [God the Father] said to my [David's] Lord [God
the Son]."
3. The distinction is delineated in Ps 2:7, "I will announce the
decree of the Lord [God the Father]. He said to Me [God the Son], `You are
My Son [deity of Jesus Christ]. This day [day of incarnation] I have
begotten You.'" This is quoted three times in the New Testament, in Acts
13:33, Heb 1:5, and Heb 5:5.
4. Isa 48:16, "Come near to Me; listen to this. From the first, I
have not spoken in secret. From the time it took place, I was there. And
now the Lord God [God the Father] has sent Me [God the Son], and His Spirit
[God the Holy Spirit]."
5. Mt 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples [Bible students] of all
nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit." This is a reference to the pre-Canon period of the Church Age in
which water baptism was practiced to illustrate the baptism of the Holy
Spirit by the use of ritual.
6. In Jn 10:30, Jesus said to the crowd, "I and the Father are one."
He was referring to divine essence. The Father and the Son are two distinct
persons in the Godhead, but they have identical essence.
7. Jn 14:16, "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another
Counselor to be with you forever." The next verse explains that the
Counselor is said to be "the Spirit of truth; He abides with you and He will
be in you."
8. Thomas called Jesus both Lord and God when he saw Him in His
resurrection body. Jn 20:28, "Thomas answered and said to Him, `My Lord, My
God.'"
9. 1 Cor 12:4-6, "There are a variety of spiritual gifts, but the same
Holy Spirit. And there are a variety of ministries [opportunities for
Christian service], but the same Lord [God the Son]. And there are many
different kinds of activities, but the same God [God the Father], who works
all of them in all persons."
10. 2 Cor 13:14, "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of
God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."
11. 1 Pet 1:2, "According to the foreknowledge of God [the Father] by
the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ."
12. Rev 1:4-6, "John, to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to
you and prosperity from Him who is [present state of the glorified Christ at
the right hand of the Father], who has always existed [Jesus Christ as
eternal God prior to the Hypostatic Union], who is to come [Second Advent],
and from the seven spirits before the throne [God the Holy Spirit as the
power system in both Christocentric dispensations], and from Jesus Christ,
the dependable witness, the first formed from the dead, also the ruler of
the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and has liberated us from our
sins by means of His blood, and He has provided for us a royal power as
priests to God, even the Father."


C. Though one in essence, God is three in persons.
1. In the doctrine of the unity of God, there is only one essence or
substance.
2. In the doctrine of the persons of the Godhead, the individuality of
the Father, Son, and Spirit is preserved against the notion that there are
only modes of God. The idea of modes of God is a false doctrine dating back
to the fourth century. It implies that one God has various modes for
various purposes in dealing with man, whether in creation or at salvation.
That is a false doctrine.
3. God is one, yet in Himself, and from all eternity past, He is three
separate and distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.
4. Argumentation for the trinity begins in Genesis with the use of
plural pronouns for God.
a. Gen 1:26, "Let us make man in our image." Therefore, more
than one person in the Godhead is involved.
b. Gen 3:22, "Then the Lord God said, `Behold, man has become
like one of us, knowing good and evil.'"
c. Isa 6:8, Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, `Whom
shall I [God the Father] send, and who will go for us ?'"
5. When a distinction is made between the persons of the Trinity, it
refers to a specific activity of specific persons in the Godhead.
a. 1 Thes 1:2-3, "We give thanks to God [God the Father] always
for you, making mention of you in our prayers, constantly bearing in mind
your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord
Jesus Christ in the presence of God our Father." So distinction is made
between the Father and Son. They have identical essence, but they are two
separate and distinct persons.
b. 1 Pet 1:2, "According to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ."
c. Tit 3:5, "He [Jesus Christ] saved us, not on the basis of
deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by
the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit."
Distinction is made between our Lord Jesus Christ and God the Holy Spirit.
d. Tit 3:6, "Whom He [God the Father] poured out upon us richly
through Jesus Christ our Savior."
e. 2 Tim 1:13-14, "Retain the standard of sound doctrine which
you have heard from me in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.
Guard through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us the treasures which have been
entrusted to you [the deposit of Bible teaching]."
6. However, Jesus Christ is the only visible member of the Trinity, Jn
1:18, 6:46; 1 Tim 3:16; 1 Jn 4:12.

D. The Distinctive Function of the Trinity.
1. While the Bible distinguishes between the members of the Trinity,
it refers to the activity of specific persons in the Godhead.
2. All three members of the Trinity provided salvation.
a. God the Father planned salvation according to Isa 14:27; Jn
4:34, 5:17, 12:44; 1 Cor 8:6; Eph 3:11.
b. God the Son executed salvation on the cross, Jn 4:34, 5:17;
1 Pet 2:24, 3:18; Rom 5:8; Heb 10:7.
c. God the Holy Spirit reveals the message of salvation. Under
the doctrine of common grace, He makes the Gospel perspicuous, Jn 16:8-11.
3. Each person of the Trinity indwells the body of every Church Age
believer. Distinction is made between them.
a. The indwelling of God the Father is found in Jn 14:23; Eph
4:6; 2 Jn 9.
b. God the Son indwells us according to Jn 14:20, 17:22-23; Rom
8:10; 2 Cor 13:5; Gal 2:20; Col 1:27; 1 Jn 2:24.
c. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is found in Rom 8:11; 1 Cor
3:16, 6:19-20; 2 Cor 6:16.
d. Only in this unique Church Age does God the Father, God the
Son, and God the Holy Spirit indwell us.
4. Each person of the Godhead provides divine power for the function
of the protocol plan.
a. The omnipotence of God the Father is related to our portfolio
of invisible assets. He is also the designer of the divine dynasphere.
b. The omnipotence of God the Son is related to the preservation
of the universe as well as the perpetuation of human history.
c. The omnipotence of God the Holy Spirit is related to
residence, function, and momentum inside the divine dynasphere.

E. Though three in persons, God is one in essence.
1. There is one God, yet three who possess every attribute of deity
equally, perfectly, and eternally.
2. There is a unity of essence and a plurality of persons belonging to
the same divine being.
3. The persons of the Godhead are not separate and independent beings,
such as Peter, James, and John; but three persons with identical essence
eternally and inseparably united as one in essence.
4. They are three individuals, Father, Son and Spirit, yet one God.
Neither is God without the other, and each with the other is God.
5. God is one in essence yet three distinct persons, and these persons
have identical substance.

F. Illustrations of the Trinity.
1. The illustration given in the Bible is that God is light.
a. 1 Jn 1:5. "And this is the message which we have heard from
Him and we communicate to you, that God is light and in Him there is no
darkness."
b. Jn 1:5, "The light shined in darkness, and the darkness did
not overpower it."
c. Jn 8:12, "Again therefore Jesus spoke to them saying, `I am
the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness but
shall have the light of life.'"
d. 1 Tim 6:16, "Who alone possesses immortality and dwells in
unapproachable light, whom no man has seen nor can see, to Him be honor and
eternal dominion. Amen."
2. Light can be regarded from two different viewpoints.
a. Light can be regarded from the standpoint of the colors in the
spectrum which illustrate the essence of God.
(1) Every ray of light from the sun is pure white, and yet
it contains all the colors of the spectrum in light waves or particles of
light. Particles of light operate on different waves, which is how we see
color.
(2) All color in the world depends on light. When all light
is reflected from an object, the object is white. When light is absorbed in
an object, the object is black.
(3) Every ray of light has three primary colors: red,
yellow, and blue. When a ray of light strikes an object so that the red and
yellow are absorbed, the color reflected is blue. If the yellow and blue
are absorbed, its color is red.
(4) So when a ray of light strikes any object, certain parts
are absorbed and certain parts are reflected.
(5) The secondary colors are orange, green, and purple. Red
plus yellow equal orange. Blue plus yellow equal green. Blue plus red
equal purple.
(6) Therefore, every color is in every ray of light. What
colors are absorbed determine the color of an object as it reflects that
light.
(7) So light from the standpoint of color illustrates the
essence of God. For just as God is one, light is one. However, light has
many colors, just as God has many different attributes in His essence.
Under certain conditions, you see certain attributes of God.
b. Light can also be regarded from the standpoint of its
composition. Light is one substance, but it is composed of three different
properties: actinic, luminiferous, and calorific.
(1) Actinic is a ray of light of short wavelengths that
produces photochemical effects. Actinic is neither seen nor felt, a perfect
illustration of God the Father.
(2) Luminiferous is light produced by the emission of light
occurring at a temperature below that of incandescent bodies. Luminiferous
is both seen and felt, a perfect illustration of God the Son.
(3) Calorific is light converted into heat. Calorific is
not seen but felt, a perfect illustration of God the Holy Spirit.
(4) Therefore, the composition of light is analogous to the
three persons in the Godhead who are one. Light is one with three
properties. God is one in essence but three persons.
3. Another illustration of the Trinity, not as good, is an egg. The
yoke, white, shell are three parts, but there is only one egg.

G. The Concept of the Trinity.
1. God is one in essence or substance.
2. God is three coequal, coeternal, and coinfinite persons in that one
essence.
3. When divine essence is the subject, God is revealed as one. When
divine persons are the subject, God is revealed as three separate and
distinct persons.
4. In the unity of God, there is only one essence or one substance.
5. In the persons of the Godhead, there is God the Father, God the
Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
6. 2 Cor 13:14, "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [God the Son], and
the love for God [the Father], and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with
all of you."
7. Eph 4:4-6, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you have been
called with reference to one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one
baptism, one God, even the Father of all." The subject of this paragraph in
Eph 4 is unity among the royal family of God. Verses 4-6 teach that just as
there is unity in the Trinity, so in principle there is unity in the body of
Christ. Verse 4 teaches there is "one Spirit. Verse 5 teaches there is
"one Lord." Verse 6 teaches there is "one God, the Father of all."

H. Summary of the Doctrine of the Trinity.
1. Trinity is not a Biblical word, but a technical, theological term
to designate the three-fold manifestation of one God as Father, Son, and
Spirit.
2. God is one in essence who exists eternally in three distinct,
coequal, coeternal persons.
3. God is one, Gal 3:20; Jas 2:19.
4. But the Son (Jn 1:1, 14:9; Col 2:9) and the Spirit (Acts 5:3-4;
1 Cor 3:16) are also fully God, yet they are distinct from the Father and
from each other.
5. The unified equality and yet distinction is seen in the triactic
references to three persons, as noted in 2 Cor 13:14; Eph 4:4-6; 1 Pet 1:2.
6. The Old Testament reveals a plurality of persons in the divine name
of Elohim, as well as in the plural pronouns of Gen 1:26 and 11:7, the
plural verbs of Gen 11:7 and 35:7, the identity of the angel of the Lord as
God in Ex 3:2-6 and Jud 13:21-22, and the references to the Spirit in Gen
1:2 and Isa 63:10. These all add up to the fact that God is one in essence
but three separate and distinct personalities.


reply to post by holywar

DOCTRINE OF THE SEVEN BAPTISMS

A. Baptism means identification or association.
1. This meaning began in Homer's time. Homer wrote of the giant
Ulysses who took a piece of hot metal and rammed it into Cyclop's one eye,
and called it "baptizing." Homer's Odyssey, book 9, used baptism for hot
metal identified with water when a smith dipped a piece of hot iron into
water.
2. Xenophon said that the Spartans baptized their spears by putting
them into a bowl of blood.
3. Euripides used the word for a ship identified with the bottom of
the sea when it sank.
4. So "baptize" in the classical Greek meant to identify one thing
with another thing so that the characteristic of the original thing was
changed into another characteristic by what was identified with it.
Therefore, the interpretation of the word "baptism" is identification.
5. The Greek word BAPTIZO has been transliterated "to cleanse by
washing, to immerse, to dip, to baptize" Jn 13:26.
6. The Greek word BAPTO means to identify, to intimately unite, to
dip, Lk 16:24. In Rev 19:13 it is used to dye a piece of cloth.
7. The Greek word BAPTISMA is used of ritual identification, Mt 3:7,
21:25; Rom 6:4.
8. The Greek noun BAPTISMOS means cleaning, washing dishes; in Heb 6:2
it means "baptisms."
9. The Greek word BAPTISES refers to one who performs the ritual of
baptism, Mt 3:1, 6:25, 11:11.

B. There are two categories of identification in Scripture:
1. An actual identification is called a real baptism.
2. A representative identification is called a ritual baptism. It
uses water.

C. There are four real baptisms in the Bible, meaning there is an actual
identification with something that has significance.
1. 1 Cor 10:1-2 presents the baptism of Moses, "For I do not want you
to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all
passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in
the sea." This was a real identification in which Moses was identified with
the open path through the Red Sea and the Jews were identified with Moses.
Water was not involved here. Only Egyptian unbelievers were immersed in the
water as a means of death. Identification with the mandates of true
leadership is the concept here. Moses was identified with the cloud or
Jesus Christ, and the people were identified with Moses.
2. The baptism of the Cross is found in Mt 20:22; Mk 10:38-39; Lk
12:50. This baptism is our Lord Jesus Christ being identified with our
sins. This refers to the judicial imputation of personal sins to Jesus
Christ on the cross. Jesus Christ was identified with our personal sins and
judged for them, so that Christ became our Savior. As sinners, none of
those to whom Christ spoke were qualified to be baptized with sin on the
cross.
3. The baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs at salvation for Church Age
believers only, 1 Cor 12:13, "For by means of one Spirit we were all
baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and
we were all made to drink of one Spirit."
a. This baptism is God the Holy Spirit identifying us with the
Lord Jesus Christ forever. It is the means of forming the royal family and
of breaking the back of the old sin nature as the ruler of human life. We
are positionally changed. No water is involved in this baptism. We are
identified with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection, Eph 4:5; Acts
1:5. The Holy Spirit enters us into union with Christ at the right hand of
the Father, making us positionally higher than angels.
b. Rom 6:3-5, "Or do you not know that all of us who have been
baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death [positional
sanctification]? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism
into [His] death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the
glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life [experiential
sanctification]. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of
His death, and not only this we shall also be [united with Him] in the
likeness of His resurrection [ultimate sanctification]."
c. Gal 3:26-28.
d. The Greek prepositional phrase EN plus the locative of place
of CHRISTOS meaning "in Christ" and the prepositional phrase EIS plus the
accusative of CHRISTOS meaning "into Christ" both indicate positional
sanctification.
e. Characteristics of the baptism of the Spirit.
(1) The baptism of the Spirit is not an experience.
(2) The baptism of the Spirit is not emotional activity or
ecstatics.
(3) It is not speaking in tongues.
(4) It is not related to human feeling.
(5) It is not progressive, therefore, it cannot be improved.
(6) It is not related to human merit or works.
(7) It is obtained en toto at the moment of salvation
through faith in Christ alone.
(8) The baptism of the Spirit is eternal in nature and
cannot be cancelled.
(9) The baptism of the Spirit is known through perception of
the mystery doctrine of the Church Age. Therefore, it cannot be applied in
a state of ignorance. No one can sin in the sphere of positional truth.
(10) The baptism of the Spirit is not a matter of the
believer's volition.
4. The baptism of fire is the real identification of unbelieving Jews
and Gentiles at the end of the Tribulation with fire in Hades, taught in Mt
3:11, "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is
coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals;
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Lk 3:16; Rev 19:11.
The unbeliever is identified with fire forever. The Tribulational
unbeliever is identified with the defeat of Satan. All unbelievers are
removed from the earth for the start of the Millennium.

D. There are three ritual baptisms. None are extant at the present time.
They are representative identifications in which water is used as a training
aid to represent some principle of doctrine. Water represents something
else in a ritual baptism. The person going into the water must have
knowledge of the meaning of the ritual.
1. The baptism of John is found in Mt 3:1-10; Jn 1:25-33. John lived
in the ritual age of Israel. The water represented the kingdom of God.
a. There had to be a ceremony never used before to identify a
person with the kingdom of God because the King was present. The water
represented the kingdom of God as John was preaching it. Putting a person
in the water showed that he was identified with Messiah and that kingdom.
It was an encouragement and means of relating doctrine to the fact the
kingdom was being offered during the first Advent. The kingdom was
postponed, but this did not change the significance of John's baptism.
b. There was no spiritual advance in this baptism; only doctrine
advances the believer.
c. This baptism was never practiced after John's death. John and
his ministry and his baptism were unique.
d. In the water the person testified to his belief that the
Messiah would go to the cross to die for his sins, recognizing that because
he accepted Christ as Savior before He died and accepted Him as King, he was
saved and identified in the Jewish kingdom forever.
2. The baptism of Jesus Christ was unique. John recognized Jesus
Christ's impeccability and refused to baptize Him. Jesus told him the water
represented something new, i.e., the Father's plan and will for the
dispensation of the hypostatic union--to begin His public ministry and to go
to the cross and receive the personal sins of mankind and be judged. So at
the beginning of His earthly ministry, Christ identified Himself with the
Father's will.
a. In the water, Jesus was saying He would fulfill God's plan and
live a perfect life under the greatest testing and then go to the Cross as a
perfect person and receive the imputation of all personal sins, Mt 3:13-17.
b. As He came out of the water, Jesus recognized that when He
completed the plan of the Father by being judged for our sins and then dying
physically, He would be resurrected, followed by His ascension and session.
Coming up out of the water was a picture of His resurrection.
3. Christian water baptism is the ritual testimony of the baptism of
the Holy Spirit. There had to be a testimony before the Canon was written
to explain the baptism of the Spirit. From the beginning of the Church Age
until the completion of the Canon, this baptism was necessary to teach the
principle of the baptism of the Holy Spirit at salvation. But once the
Canon was completed this ritual was no longer necessary, since the
explanation for the baptism of the Spirit is now in writing.
a. The purpose of Jesus Christ on the cross, His resurrection,
ascension and session, and the beginning of a new Church Age had to be
portrayed with ritual until the Canon was completed.
b. Water baptism was used as a training aid for new, weak
believers, just as certain temporary spiritual gifts were used to teach
until the Canon was completed.
c. In the water, the believer recognized that he was identified
with Jesus Christ in His spiritual death, physical death, and burial, i.e.,
retroactive positional truth. Identification with His spiritual death meant
rejection of good and evil. Identification with His physical death and
burial meant separation from good and evil.
d. Coming out of the water was recognition of being identified
with Christ as He is now seated at the right hand of the Father, i.e.,
current positional truth.
e. Paul tells the Corinthians he stopped using water baptism
because it was a means of dividing believers, Acts 2:38, 8:36-38, 16:15,33;
1 Cor 1:11-17. So before Romans 6:3-4 and 1 Cor 12 were written to explain
the baptism of the Spirit and identification with Christ in His death and
resurrection, water baptism was used to represent what had happened at
salvation to those who did not yet have the completed Canon.


there might be problem with the baptism by a priest or every other sinner their baptisms would be unpure. and wouldnt be aloud to use the holy spirit like a a saint or an apostle. saint as the meaning of someone that can actually do something semi- miraculous, and apostles who are aloud to use the holyspirit as much as god allows them. because they are not sinners. and to go with that they were told the truth by jesus. which was the way you should live and the way things should be thats what the whole bible is about. if you understood the truth in the bible you would be saved. thats why jesus is the only way because its the only scripture with the whole truth. and nothing but the truth

[edit on 26-7-2009 by make.changes]