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A contradiction in the bible

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posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 11:19 PM
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reply to post by Pappa_Bear
 


not really beacuse all you described was a probable simulation. if all god can do is guess what we are going to do then god doesnt know with certainty. Im sorry but MY definition of god is a being with such absolute knowledge that it knows for a fact what will happen. so you need to outline the limitations of your god before we can get into possible reasoning for its actions.




posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 11:27 PM
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reply to post by make.changes
 


Sorry but you are dead wrong
John 5:19
John 14:28
there are plenty more in which Jesus says he is the Son of God; Or he is about his Father's work . Therfore Jesus cannot be GOD by his own admission to his disciples.
There is no verse in the bible anywhere including in the books which were not put into the current version of he bible.

I challenge you to find even one in which Jesus plainly states "He is God" or "he is his Father"



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 11:34 PM
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reply to post by make.changes
 




do you know what i mean?


no, I don't know what you mean.... no offense, but you almost sound like this guy:



he is of course being sarcastic.



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 11:36 PM
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Originally posted by TiM3LoRd
reply to post by Pappa_Bear
 


not really beacuse all you described was a probable simulation. if all god can do is guess what we are going to do then god doesnt know with certainty. Im sorry but MY definition of god is a being with such absolute knowledge that it knows for a fact what will happen. so you need to outline the limitations of your god before we can get into possible reasoning for its actions.


i think i can answer for pappa bear, ill start with god has no limitation. omnipotent omnipowerful he can do anything he wants. then id say that if god didnt do what he did you would be standing in complete chaos, what he saying is god does everything for a reason. he knows the mess that can be made by having the child eat the banana the apple or the cookie. now since he know the potential the kid has for making a mess or not making the mess. by choosing one over the other; say the kid chooses the apple he has planned that the mother cleans up the kids mess that he made on the floor. or he has also planned that incase the mother doesnt want to clean up the mess that either she makes the kid pick up the mess the kid made. or the kid cleans it up. if she doesnt make the kid clean it up. and leaves it on the floor he has planned that the mother could walk in the kitchen and sweep i up a day later, or shes not paying attention to what shes doing and slip and bump her head on the floor. i can go on forever but the point is whatever you do you only have a certain number of choices you ca make. and he has planned how every single choice is connected and makes a plan for that person depending on the multiple choices that person makes. if the person keeps on making bad choices the person will be punished for it. if i lost you. just ask and ill re explain



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 11:38 PM
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reply to post by TiM3LoRd
 


Another words; God does not affect the choices you make, nor does He affect the oppurtunity in which you make those choices, That is the determination of freewill that you are given to make those choices for yourself. Therefore it is not guessing, but instead keeping the information to Himself and allowing you to determine your own outcome.



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 11:43 PM
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Originally posted by Pappa_Bear
reply to post by TiM3LoRd
 


Another words; God does not affect the choices you make, nor does He affect the oppurtunity in which you make those choices, That is the determination of freewill that you are given to make those choices for yourself. Therefore it is not guessing, but instead keeping the information to Himself and allowing you to determine your own outcome.


hey pappa bear did i get it right?



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 11:44 PM
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Originally posted by Pappa_Bear
reply to post by TiM3LoRd
 


Another words; God does not affect the choices you make, nor does He affect the oppurtunity in which you make those choices, That is the determination of freewill that you are given to make those choices for yourself. Therefore it is not guessing, but instead keeping the information to Himself and allowing you to determine your own outcome.


make.changes did rather well with this explanation with the exception of some minor gramatical errors!



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 11:51 PM
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reply to post by make.changes
 


well I put it this way you gave me more to think about in that God does take our decisions and make use of them in his overall plan.



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 12:25 AM
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i understand what you are all trying to say. free will is given to us so that we may choose between right and wrong based on a set of guidelines handed down by god. MY POINT is that god knows what you are going to do before you do it because god does NOT exist within time god EXISTS out of time. Time and Space are tools of measurement used to define the boarders of our reality. stay with me here. and as such this reality being a creation of god came from god. so time and space were created by god to be separate from where ever god is. because god is eternal and this universe is supposedly not (based on the bible the universe was created and everything that has a start has an end)

anyway my point is god knows the future NOT probable futures the actual future(again based on the bible you cant have the book of revelation that predicts the end of times if that is only a possible future. according to the bible that will come to pass) SO NOW TELL ME HOW CAN THE FUTURE BE KNOWN TO SOMEONE CALLED JOHN BUT NOT KNOWN TO GOD. doesnt make sense. god either know or doesnt. choose one you cant have both.



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 12:52 AM
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reply to post by TiM3LoRd
 


I think you may be missing what we are trying to say.

Just because you can make a choice does not in itself infer that God does not know in advance what we are going to do.. Now if God were to affect every decision to cause us to make the choice that he knows in advance that we will make that would be predetermination. Since God does not interfere in that way; then the choices we make are considered freewill.

In short. God knows all. God does not interfere in our lives in a manner to affect our choices without us asking Him to do so. Since God does not affect our choices to cause us to make a predetermined choice we have Freewill. God still knows all, He just decides not to interfere and let us make the decision He knows that we are going to make.

I hope that this explains it better.

As we are getting off topic, please U2U me if interested in discussing this further

edit: to add last statement

[edit on 20/7/2009 by Pappa_Bear]



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 01:24 AM
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Originally posted by Pappa_Bear
reply to post by TiM3LoRd
 


I think you may be missing what we are trying to say.

Just because you can make a choice does not in itself infer that God does not know in advance what we are going to do.. Now if God were to affect every decision to cause us to make the choice that he knows in advance that we will make that would be predetermination. Since God does not interfere in that way; then the choices we make are considered freewill.

In short. God knows all. God does not interfere in our lives in a manner to affect our choices without us asking Him to do so. Since God does not affect our choices to cause us to make a predetermined choice we have Freewill. God still knows all, He just decides not to interfere and let us make the decision He knows that we are going to make.

I hope that this explains it better.

As we are getting off topic, please U2U me if interested in discussing this further

edit: to add last statement

[edit on 20/7/2009 by Pappa_Bear]


The Lord profaned his own inheritance. Did he know he would do that?

Contradiction is seen in the bible when you separate yourself from God. If you looked at the bible as God is in all, as he says, contradiction would be Justice.

Isa 45:7 forming light, and creating darkness; making peace, and creating evil. I, Jehovah, do all these things.

[edit on 20-7-2009 by letthereaderunderstand]



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 03:46 AM
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reply to post by letthereaderunderstand
 


The proper translation in Isaiah 45:7 from the NKJV:

I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the LORD, do all these things.



He was referring to the destruction of King Cyrus who was trying to war against the house of Jacob. Read the context. God was explaining the punishment He would reign on the nations that try to harm His people.



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 03:52 AM
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reply to post by TiM3LoRd
 


I think a better way to explain this is like this....

God knows what mankind as a whole will do and the decisions we will make as the human race. We as a whole are headed for destruction. This is why Revelation and Daniel speak of the tribulation and destruction of man's rule on earth. Individuals have free will. God knows the outcome of each decision but the decision is still up to us. He doesn't know ahead of time which decision we will make as individuals, but He knows what the outcome will be when the decision is made. That's what free will is. Did God know Lucifer would become Satan before Lucifer got a big head? No. Does this diminish what God is? No. God made a plan based on what decisions we would make. All avenues were thought out. Once again, mankind as a whole is headed for destruction and God knew this the moment Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. It's called "human nature" and it's the nature of avoiding God and His laws.



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 09:35 AM
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Originally posted by make.changes
reply to post by miriam0566
 
when the trinity doctrine states they are three and yet one, it means they are three beings yet one consiousness. i thik i stated it well ith my former post. but you can correct me if you think im wrong.
As far as I know, the "official" version of the trinity is stated in the Athanasian Creed, coming out of the Council of Nicea. According to that, they are three separate personalities of the Godhead, so that would mean three different consciousnesses. Athanasius claims they are unified in purpose and that they have existence from the same substance. This is "the" Trinity doctrine as we have it today, but it is the "official" trinity after hundreds of years of debate, purges, executions and war. Once all opposition was crushed, it can now be said that everyone agrees with it.

[edit on 20-7-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 09:59 AM
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reply to post by TiM3LoRd
 

god is either all knowing or not. if not then by definition it is not god.
God is defined? News to me. And who was it who made these observations of God and was able to make these determinations concerning Him?
Once this definition is created, does God have to remain in compliance with these guidelines? Or, to put it another way, does God have a handbook for how to be God, that He follows?
So if God does not fit how you imagine God as being, then you have the power to declare Him not to be God?
You can say that. There is the limit of your "free will". You do not have "free will" to make what you declare, to be true.
Can an all powerful god create a situation where all future events are not predetermined? Will you limit God by saying it is not possible for Him to limit what is possible to be known?
Can you prove that it is possible to travel into the future and see what is going to happen, then go back to where you started, and do something that will change the future? Then is it possible to go into the future again to check to see how your action in your previous past, in order to change the future, really worked out, and gave the desired results?
My guess would be no, that you can not prove that this can be done. Could God create the universe in such a way as this sort of pre-knowing and time tampering is not possible? If you say no, then God is not all powerful.
God, being all powerful, can make promises for something to happen, and be able to see it carried out. He does not have to mysteriously look into the future to see what will happen, then do a trick of predicting it, then taking credit for making it happen. No, God does not have to resort to deception, He is powerful and can affect events in order for what He wills to come about. God has true Free Will that we, as pathetic fallen Man, can only wish we had.


[edit on 20-7-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by letthereaderunderstand
 


The proper translation in Isaiah 45:7 from the NKJV:

I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the LORD, do all these things.



He was referring to the destruction of King Cyrus who was trying to war against the house of Jacob. Read the context. God was explaining the punishment He would reign on the nations that try to harm His people.


Yet this passage tells us clearly; God is God of All. This applies to everything, not just to Cyrus or other enemies of God's people.



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 12:15 PM
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reply to post by Pappa_Bear
 


because an angel was sent down by god to shoe john this vision and because he was shown this vision menat it was sure to pass because certain people were known to do certain things in this vision that was shown to john. i get what your saying but just because people get to choose different options doesnt always mean that they end up on a different path. they may have been created with freewill. but they were already made with certain traits. so therefore they would be more likely to do one thing over an other. do you get what i mean?



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 12:38 PM
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reply to post by make.changes
 


Me thinks you have confused me. I have already said that just in different words.


I totaly agree, and have found that by not studying for oneself usually allows for misinterpretations to continue. the main reason I left mainstream religion and began studying the bible for myself, but have found that discussions like this bring up insights that I have overlooked and cuases me to go back and rethink things.



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 01:56 PM
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Unless you God-haters find a real conspiracy in the Bible, like a birth certificate proving Jesus wasnt born in Bethlehem, maybe you should just do your God-hating in private. This is no contradiction. Jesus saying Father forgive them for they know not what they do could be considered a contradiction these days since you are all aware that God does exist and for the most part unexplainable in every aspect. And if my last statement wasnt pure truth then threads like this would not ever exist. Its amazing, the ones who profess He isnt real are the ones who talk about Him the most. The thought of Judgement Day must really stick in some ATSers craw. Lol.


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 04:27 PM
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hey OP

you're looking at the trinity the same way many christians do.. and that's incorrect.

in order to view the trinity correctly.. don't view each corner of the trinity as a separate entity..

but "God" say.. as the "operating system" of the universe...

and "christ" as the example of how the OS and the processor can intertwine.. christ as a mere example of what EVERY person is capable of experiencing.

and the Holy Spirit, as the "wiring" .. the literal connection.. the energy that allows for the processor to compute the OS.

christ as an example of a philosophy and a living diagram as to the methods as to which the Holyu spirit enters an intellectual animal so that he/she may experience "God" .. the ultimate consciousness of all things.


don't see jesus, the holy spirit, and god as three separate "Gods".. that's retarded . incorrect and flawed..

see them all as different SYMBOLIC ASPECTS of a larger more complex system that relates to man's connection to the Monad.

-


[edit on 20-7-2009 by prevenge]



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